How fair is Mishra's Workshop?

[Caelestis]

Does the DCI wait upon this Pip of which you speak?  Or does it more or less base its decisions upon what is best for the format/appeases the majority/appeals to new players?

Neither, the DCI hits whatever they think is the culprit of metagame instability when there is either no metagame distortion, or merely getting the culprit entirely wrong. Applying that logic, it is highly probably they'll ban Workshop.

[Triple_S]

If we want to go w/ the sky is falling type of thing with workshop, add ESG to the list of candidates to go also since it is functionally the same Lotus Petal.

[DavidHernandez]

The fact that we see the following decks in the top 8 of a variety of tournaments should make a point:

Slaver
Fish
Stax
4cc
Tog
MonoU
TPS
Belcher
Dragon

We have variety. No single deck truly dominates the format. Also, I'm finding that planning a deck and a sideboard is becoming increasingly difficult because I'm now expecting to see Back to Basics along with Basic Lands. Wastlands (and to some extent, Crucible of Worlds) become less broken when your only targets are Basic Islands and Plains. And this is secondary to the fact that there are so many good decks that you simply cannot be prepared for everything.

The fact that it is almost impossible to run a testing gauntlet (because of the variety of powerful decks available) tells me that we have a healthy meta. If that's true, then Mishra's Workshop does not distort the format sufficiently to warrant restriction.

I say leave it alone because the situation is good for everyone right now.

Dave.

[monstre]

The gush standard for restriction is seriously flawed. Workshop decks will never make 50% of the field because there's simply not enough workshops to go around and you need 10 proxies to make the deck if you don't own any power. You're in serious denial if you're waiting for that to happen before even considering restriction. I'm prepared to be convinced either way, really I am, but this kind of dismissal is really no argument at all. And could we please stop with the slippery slope nonsense? Just because workshop gets the boot doesn't mean we have to restrict ESG or dark ritual or whatever.
Alright, I'm done. Carry on.

[Xeeko]

Sigh, I guess Sweden really is the only place where it's dominating.

[Machinus]

Anyone who thinks workshop is a problem has no grasp of deckbuilding or tournament play.

Affinity gets raped at any modestly sized tournament. MUD is weak compared to the rest of the decks we have now. Titan and the rest of the workshop aggro decks are inconsistent as all hell.

Workshop has become a target for players scorned by prison locks and trinisphere in particular. Well, you want to know something? Go back and read my report from the first SCG tourney, and you will see that I got reamed first round by a workshop deck gone beserk. I have been beaten by workshops and I can see that while U/R stax is an extremely powerful deck, its so called 'power variance' and vulnerability more than make up for this - and even if it didn't the problem is NOT with the mana sources. Trinisphere is what pisses players off so much. I am not going to quote all the previously stated arguments about how it keeps belcher from running over everything, or how with a force and a waste the workshop deck will roll over to aggo-control, but I will say that 3sphere, chalice, and the rest of the gang would still kick your ass if they took 3 workshops out of every stax deck and replaced them with cities. Trinisphere even turns off when it is tapped! So they ban 3sphere too? Sphere of resistance will come back from the dead and you will lose to that instead. The workshop archetype has received a few bonuses this year - I will say that the last block is certainly responsible for the recent success of workshop decks. And even if you disagree that this is a good thing, I would then say that even if workshop decks were too powerful, workshop is not the cause.
Take a look at the core cards from the deck:

Thirst for Knowledge
Chalice of the Void
Crucible of Worlds
Gilded Lotus

What are you going to do? Ban all of those too? Welder and smokestack are the only things in the deck besides other restricted cards that aren't new to the environment. Yet somehow workshop is the cause of this dangerous new power level? Colorless mana is always going to be faster and easier to generate. As players, everyone must accept the fact that now there are powerful and cheap outlets for this mana and that the environment is changing. OMG, new metagame! Change your deck or build a new one.

/rant

[kl0wn]

Colorless mana is always going to be faster and easier to generate.

Except that Workshop doesn't produce colorless mana.

All the whining I've heard over the past year about Workshop needing restriction always seems to come from people who have never played a deck built around the card. Fact is, if you play Workshop decks for a while, you realize how inconsistent they are.

Here's how the Workshop archetypes work:

1) To build a consistent Workshop deck, you need tons of Workshop and non-Workshop mana constantly. You often get the hands that are all non-Workshop spells and Workshops for mana sources and you often get the hands that are all non-Workshop sources and Workshop-required spells. These decks often have to mulligan fiercely.

2) If you try to build a deck that abuses Workshop to it's fullest (as opposed to using them as support in example one), you end up with Mono-Brown MUD-type decks. These decks rely on winning the die roll; if your opponent goes first and does something stupid, you don't have Force of Will, so you have to sit there and take it while hoping you can recover within the next couple of turns before their board develops beyond your control. Furthermore, you have very little immediate search and drawing, so you basically rely on the opening hand to get the right combination of cards that will do something.

Please stop asking for Workshop's restriction, people. It makes you look ignorant of the format and the only thing that will come of it is eliminating several viable, healthy and fun archetypes.

[Machinus]

I wasn't referring specifically to workshop, just off color moxen, rituals, nonbasics that make more than 1 mana, etc.

You are right though about people completely overlooking the DRAWBACK of workshop. If those other cards didn't exist, workshop would suck because there would be nothing to cast with it.

Just to be safe: people, you can't use workshop mana for anything EXCEPT putting an artifact on the stack. No spells, no abilites, no spheres, no leak effects. Colorless permanents. Easily hateable permanents. Workshop has found its place in our format, and we are better for it.

[Moxlotus]

Since restricted list policy is driven by RESULTS, NOT THEORY, I fail to see an iota of evidence for its restriction.

Why is Chrome Mox restricted then?

EDIT: @Moxlotus below:
It's not the number of Workshops in top 8's that is the issue in the article.
It's the number of Workshop based decks in top 8's when you consider just how rare a playset of Workshop really is (twice as rare as a Mox).
You can't make the same argument for FoW, Brainstorm or Wasteland because they are all relatively common. Mana Drain, maybe.
The argument is that if a playset of Workshop were as easy to obtain as a playset of Wasteland then Workshop based decks designed to beat other Workshop based decks would dominate the metagame.

The fact that they are not dominating the metagame in 5-10 proxy environments is well, sort of a mystery.

So one of the reasons you want to restrict it is because it is hard to find?!?!?!  WHAT THE HELL?

Maybe the "mystery" of why it is not dominating in 5-10 proxy environments is because, (omfg) it might not be so ridiculously overpowered as you think.  Maybe people have found decks or have the skill to beat Workshop decks.

[VGB]

Please stop asking for Workshop's restriction, people. It makes you look ignorant of the format and the only thing that will come of it is eliminating several viable, healthy and fun archetypes.

I wasn't necessarily calling for Workshop's restriction - merely the recognition of the fact that brown decks are approaching degeneracy.  There are several ways to offset a surge in power an archetype is experiencing, either via:

1) Metagame shift.
2) Hate cards, new or old.
3) Restriction.

It is not good debate practice to continually call people whose opinions differ from yours ignorant - and I have the facts to prove that I am anything but.

Workshop decks are many things, but fun for their opponents they are not.  It's restriction would not be without precedence or merit, and the T1 community should be braced for that eventuality.  Simply saying "artifact decks are too inconsistent" is bogus, too - I can't ever remember a single instance whereby Long.dec got first place in a tournament - and this is the highest I have ever seen it place: Dulmen 7/6/03 - yet LED and Burning Wish were still restricted.

-edited for grammar

[monstre]

Why is it that workshop decks are fine because they're not the most consistent, but then we should be really worried about belcher? That kind of argument is what's really inconsistent...

[goober]

Long was seriously underplayed, and everyone saw how ridiculously broken it was.  Desire didn't need to be played, the DCI figured out it would destroy the game, and it would have.  It was blatently obvious it would win everything, and so they restricted it beforehand.  Some times you don't need to wait.  With Workshops they have given them 10 years of time to break it, and it still hasn't.  

The conflict of interest argument is stupid, disprove their points not their motive.  OH NO they make valid well thought out points because of an alterior motive.  That doesn't change the fact that their points are good.  As a side note, I own 0 Workshops and would love to be able to cross 3 off my wish list.

The DCI doesn't wait for Pip, they wait for results.  It just happens that Pip knows a few things about tournament data.

This isn't even close to a hate/hated deck format, and I can't see how you could possibly think that.  The data posted was incomplete, heres a fuller list.

180 Force of Will
157 Wasteland
124 Brainstorm
104 Red Elemental Blast
91 Rack and Ruin
91 Tormod's Crypt
88 Mishra's Workshop

Oh man, restrict Tormod's Crypt!!!!111!!!!11

This card isn't dominating, it is making a better metagame.  Now I am shutting the computer down because lightning just PWNED my parking lot.

[dexter]

okay,

staxx is a problem child in sweden, it might be just that sweden is staxx infected right now. Or it might be that staxx is just to good.

for example a month ago there was a tournament with about 40 people playing. if i remember right there were 7 staxx decks in that tournament and still 3 of thoose were in the t8. 1 of them conceded in the last round to a friend since he didnt have time to play t8. so outta 40 decks which 7 were staxx over 50% of them would have made t8. no other deck in that tournament had the same ratio even though keeper and draw7´s showed up in multiple copies.

and what ive seen from the american staxx so far isnt that impressive, running cards like darksteel ingots and havent noticed that thirst for knowledge is way better than meditate?!?

still im not sure that workshop is the problem child right now. i think its trinisphere. even here in sweden b4 darksteel was legal to play there were quite alot of staxx decks but people didnt fear it as much then. the best turn 1 play they had at that point were a smokestack or a sphere of resistence. both of thoose cards can be played around way much easier than play around a first turn trinisphere from your opponent.

my thoughts is just that wotc should attack trinishpere before they attack workshops. workshops still provides a couple of other decks than staxx that people want to play and arent as uberhuman as staxx is right now.

for smemmnen:

you wondered where the results were from staxx in the bigger tournaments naming for example gencon. well you guys had a very poorly built staxx in the t8, and what i started to realize is that you americans wanna use all that mana that workshops provide to cast big creatures instead of using it for prison decks. if gencon would have been in europe and we acctually could have mixed the american meta with the europeen meta i think there would have been at least 2-3 staxx in t8 and most likely would have been won by a staxx as well.

[VGB]

Long was seriously underplayed, and everyone saw how ridiculously broken it was.  Desire didn't need to be played, the DCI figured out it would destroy the game, and it would have.  It was blatently obvious it would win everything, and so they restricted it beforehand.  Some times you don't need to wait.  With Workshops they have given them 10 years of time to break it, and it still hasn't.

Obviously Long was underplayed, but that doesn't change the fact that the deck was horribly inconsistent and excruciatingly difficult to pilot.  As to whether Workshop has been broken, seriously, you have to be joking.

The conflict of interest argument is stupid, disprove their points not their motive.  OH NO they make valid well thought out points because of an alterior motive.  That doesn't change the fact that their points are good.  As a side note, I own 0 Workshops and would love to be able to cross 3 off my wish list.

I am not saying that people who own Workshops should be discredited solely on that basis, but rather that the arguments I list are just smoke and mirrors thrown up in desperation, probably due to conflict of interest.  Monstre also correctly pointed out how febrile the "slippery slope" argument is, as it is also irrelevant.

This isn't even close to a hate/hated deck format, and I can't see how you could possibly think that.  The data posted was incomplete, heres a fuller list.

180 Force of Will
157 Wasteland
124 Brainstorm
104 Red Elemental Blast
91 Rack and Ruin
91 Tormod's Crypt
88 Mishra's Workshop

Tormod's Crypt is a Welder hate card.  As is BEB (which should probably be on that list, in numbers around R&R).  R&R is Workshop hate.  As is Wasteland.

I fail to see what your amended list is saying.  The fact that B2B and Energy Flux are becoming huge again also speaks volumes.

[Smmenen]

okay,

staxx is a problem child in sweden, it might be just that sweden is staxx infected right now. Or it might be that staxx is just to good.

for example a month ago there was a tournament with about 40 people playing. if i remember right there were 7 staxx decks in that tournament and still 3 of thoose were in the t8. 1 of them conceded in the last round to a friend since he didnt have time to play t8. so outta 40 decks which 7 were staxx over 50% of them would have made t8. no other deck in that tournament had the same ratio even though keeper and draw7´s showed up in multiple copies.

and what ive seen from the american staxx so far isnt that impressive, running cards like darksteel ingots and havent noticed that thirst for knowledge is way better than meditate?!?

still im not sure that workshop is the problem child right now. i think its trinisphere. even here in sweden b4 darksteel was legal to play there were quite alot of staxx decks but people didnt fear it as much then. the best turn 1 play they had at that point were a smokestack or a sphere of resistence. both of thoose cards can be played around way much easier than play around a first turn trinisphere from your opponent.

my thoughts is just that wotc should attack trinishpere before they attack workshops. workshops still provides a couple of other decks than staxx that people want to play and arent as uberhuman as staxx is right now.

for smemmnen:

you wondered where the results were from staxx in the bigger tournaments naming for example gencon. well you guys had a very poorly built staxx in the t8, and what i started to realize is that you americans wanna use all that mana that workshops provide to cast big creatures instead of using it for prison decks. if gencon would have been in europe and we acctually could have mixed the american meta with the europeen meta i think there would have been at least 2-3 staxx in t8 and most likely would have been won by a staxx as well.

Me and Kevin Cron were playing Stax long before anyone in Sweden.  http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=5273

I can tell you right now that Ingot is far superior to Obergs maindeck Gilded Lotus.  With Ingot you can cast Balance, Hurkyl's, Welder, Vamp, DT or any other bomb easily and quickly.

Second, Thirst nets you 2 cards, Meditate gets you 4.  Meandeck in general, Kevin and I have tested BOTH EXTENSIVELY and we concluded for Gencon that Meditate was superior.

Third, Mono Blue has an extremely favorable matchup against Stax.  PLay with my Chalice build and its even more brutal.  Back to basics + Chalices + tons of coutnerspells + immunity to Wasteland = bad times for $t4ks.

RE: Long.dec

Wish and LED should not have been restricted when they were.  The reason they were is that they were convinced as I was that it was going to dominate.  They moved too quickly without enough data.  The only thing that proves is that they pay attention to internet writers who seem convincnig (their email correspondences with myself prove that as well).  

If Not for Chalice, I'm convinced that Long would have done very, very well - but the printing of Chalices scared us all of - including myself.  In my article on the deck (of which I wrote many) I said that I thought Chalice would kill the deck.  I was mistaken.   Btw, it wasn't inconsistent - at least not even close to the level of inconsistency that Workshop decks experience.

If there is a single card that is worthy of restriction it isn't any of those cards - it would be Goblin Welder.  That card appeared in 6 of the top 8 decks at Gencon.  

Steve

[Saucemaster]

I wasn't necessarily calling for Workshop's restriction - merely the recognition of the fact that brown decks are approaching degeneracy.

Any deck in Type 1 that is not approaching degeneracy is not sufficiently competitive.  To say that a deck "approaches degeneracy" is, in T1, more or less equivalent to saying that it's viable.  I don't care whether or not they approach degeneracy, I care whether they step over the line.

It is not good debate practice to continually call people whose opinions differ from yours ignorant - and I have the facts to prove that I am anything but.

It is also not good debate practice to straw-man your opponent.  kl0wn didn't call you ignorant (which actually rather surprises me.  You're losing your touch, kl0wn!).  He said that calling for MWS restriction makes one look ignorant of the format.  And he's spot on.

I can't ever remember a single instance whereby Long.dec got first place in a tournament - and this is the highest I have ever seen it place: Dulmen 7/6/03 - yet LED and Burning Wish were still restricted.

Long was restricted in large part because a number of very influential--and very good--players' extensive testing results indicated that it should be dominating the format.  I happened to agree at the time, and still do.  Regardless, are you claiming that you, and a number of other players, have testing results that indicate that some Workshop-based strategy should be dominating the Type 1 metagame, whether or not it actually IS dominating at the moment?  If so, I'd like to hear it.  Post the results, and we can try to verify them.  Lord knows Smmenen wrote a few billion words about Long and how good it was when he became convinced that it needed to be dealt with.  Follow his example.

As to whether Workshop has been broken, seriously, you have to be joking.

I assume he wasn't joking, but regardless, I'll echo his statement and assure you that I'm quite serious.  Post this Workshop list that you have decided should be dominating the format, that is so broken that Workshop needs restriction.  I haven't seen one yet.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think that right now the only cards worthy of restriction are Trinisphere and Crucible. These cards might not be part of a dominant archetype, but instead they can result in stupid first turn kills without requiring an ounce of brainpower or playskill. That to me is perfectly valid reason for restriction. Sure, they could restrict Workshop to try to alleviate the Trinisphere issue, but why axe something that spawns 4-5 reasonable archetypes when you can just nail the real problem card?

Furthermore I think they should axe Belcher. No deck should exist that can combo out turn 1 with such terrifying consistency, no matter how badly it can get hated out. They got rid of long.dec for exactly that reason, so why haven't they gotten around to Belcher yet?

As said, other lock cards such as sphere or resistance and chalice can take the place of trinishpere.  Not requiring skill to use a card is not a decent argument argument for restriction.  It take no skill to do many things in t1, such as going broken.  It's part of what makes the format what it is (read the first quote in my sig).

Belcher has nothing to due with this thread, but since you brought it up I will say this:  If it's so insane why aren't the results there to show it domintating.  People do playtest decks and they often won't play belcher because it is easy to h8 out as well as inconsistent.  Long didn't have those problems.

As for $T4KS if it is truely a problem deck results will show up to prove it eventually.  I personally don't think that it is.  When playing a prison deck the die roll is so important.  Your opponent could kill you 1st turn or drop down enough mana accleration that you can't lock them down.  They could play 2 fetches on their first 2 turns and then drop any land and pop the fetches for RG lands tapping 3 for an artifact mutation (under sp3hre).  You can't do anything about any of these plays.  Even playing 2nd they can fow your sph3re and drop accleration or play a threat or kill you.  And ALL of these situations consider the $T4CKS player to have a 2 card combo in their oppening hand, running only 4 of each and minimal draw/search.  Yes, thirst, sph3re, workshop, etc are all good, but you people are making it sound like stax is impossible to beat, which simply isn't true.Sure, it gets the odd "I win" draw, but almost every deck in the format can do that (again, see the 1st quote in my sig).  Anyawys, all of these hypothetical situations are probably irrelivant because the real question is that is workshop dominating the format enough to warrent a restriction.  Right now, no.

[Jacob Orlove]

Re-opened. To answer the original question, Workshop is about as fair as every other really good deck in T1.

Here's another issue for workshop: it's not going to get better. Mirrodin block was a huge aberration in terms of how good artifacts were allowed to be. I doubt there will be more than one or two good cards for workshop decks in the next several blocks.

[theorigamist]

I agree with Jacob.  There are already more 3 and 4cc artifact lock parts than can realistically fit in a deck.  Most of the higher CC artifacts will be Welded into play.  So Workshop is about as good as it can get.

[Smmenen]

That's an excellent point.

Consider this:

There was quite a bit of Workshops at Gencon, far more than I expected for a torunament of 150.  My original guestimation based upon SCG data was that there would be at most 25 Workshop decks in a field of 200.  There were probably 20 in a field of 100.  

Here is how Gencon could have gone down:

T8

1.  Stax
2.  Stacker (5/3)
3.  Stax
4.  4cc
5.  TnT
6.  TMS
7.  Stax
8.  Fish

We have just been through one of the blocks with the highest concentration of playable type one cards since Urza's Block.  The power of Mirrodin is off the scale.  If that Top 8 had occurred - I don't think a rational person could argue against Workshops restriction.

Given the enormous number of potential abuses for Mishra's Workshop - the fact that so few actually dominated Gencon, and moreover, the fact that those that did WERE AGGRO suggests not that they are inherently powerful and restriction worthy - but that they pwned Fish and lucked out against other bad matchups.  I played three matchups against Workshop in with mono blue and lost one due to, what I view, as some bad luck.

[Ric_Flair]

Mods, if you are reading this thread, please shut it down.  It is unproductive, unnecessarily duplicative, disrespectful to members of the community that have earned respected, and poorly argued.  

To those of you that want to really engage this debate, there are parameters that the community in general has set for these kinds of discussions.  The parameters can be found in this thread:  

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19103&highlight=


The reason that these parameters have developed is two fold.  First it cuts down on IDOITIC debates like the one contained herein.  Second, it has a proven track record of influencing and predicting DCI action.  If you cannot argue within these parameters go post elsewhere.  We are not interested in your illogical, ill formed opinions.   We are interested in thought out, productive discussion.  The issue of B&R action is particularly sensitive because of how often it could come up.  If there were no "guidelines" or base line discussions it could (and has) very rapidly become a time sink for the whole community.  If we have to constantly debate these issues instead of working on decks good minds, including good up and coming minds (who may not realize the waste that these threads represent) may be lured away from productive discussion.  Along with the B&R debate the following are sensitive topics that require an extremely careful and considerate articulation in order to make headway: the proxy issue, the reprint issue, the price/participation issue.  Unless you are going to make a contribution that is new and/or innovative, the community as a whole does not want to hear it, if it is outside the generally accepted methods of analysis.  

That said, here are my replies to various remarks.

First a global response.  I was not citing Belcher as another restriction candidate, nor was I saying that Workshop and Belcher have some sort of relationship.  I was merely pointing out that in a format with uberfast kills, things like Workshop, which in the abstract seem broken ("A PERMANENT LOTUS/DARK RITUAL...OMG!") really aren't.  Five years of tournament experience since its unrestriction have proven this is true.  In that time no Workshop based deck has been as dominant as Academy, Trix, Long, or GAT, all decks that serve a benchmarks for brokenness.  In fact, I would argue that Workshop decks give the format MORE diversity allowing a permanents based lock deck to exist in a format that is control/counter heavy and lightning fast.  In other words, if Belcher is in the format and is as fast as it is, Workshop is just not broken.  And the tournament record supports that as Steve has pointed out.  

Second, a global comment.  People that think there is some conspiracy afoot by Workshop owners are crazy.  Go watch some more JFK and X-Files.  This is just not the case.  Steve's criteria and my take on them are not motivated by any market concerns whatsoever.  I own 4 pieces of power, Drains, and dual lands along with every 1.x or newer card and I couldn't care less if they reprinted everything.  I think that the widespread acceptance of proxy tournaments indicates that the people that regularly play in the format are completely unconcerned with protecting their expensive cards.  

Third global comment.  The supposed degeneracy of Workshop decks is being supported on the backs of clearly inferior tournaments.   Any event with a no proxy rule is automatically suspect.  As is any event with less than 25 people, with 50 being an ideal target.  There are exceptions (one, really) in the form of GenCon, but if you are looking at results without a proxy rule and with less than 25 people, you are looking at something only tangentially related to the "actual" Vintage metagame.  When you see results from a tournament in R/G beatz wins, 9 out of 10 times that tournament was not representative.  Steve O'Connell's SCG article explains this all, much better than I can here.  

Workshop is not degenerate because it is both inconsistent and highly vulnerable to the best hate card in the format, in fact, the only hate card to become the metagame--Null Rod.  More experience would help here.  If anyone remembers the days of Geddon decks in T2 or Elf decks in 1.x they can tell you that the all mana, big spell decks are extremely inconsistent.  Fires of Yavimaya being the rare exception to the rule (in part because the "big mana" spells weren't that being and were amply supported by more reasonably costed spells).  Workshop based decks are the ultimate zenith of the big mana type decks.  As Jacob Orlove told me once: "A gameplan built around 4-5cc spells in a format with turn one kills is not a great idea."  Workshop makes that possible, it makes it viable, but no results that we have seen yet shows that it makes it degenerate.  

Belcher's consistency (which is much higher than people in this thread made it out to be, it really is between 30-40% when goldfishing) or lack thereof is much more of a problem because it can end the game in fact on turn one.  There is a huge difference between a "good" lock on turn 1 (with 3sphere) and dead.  The problem is made worse by the fact that Belcher's speed means that if the Belcher player goes first the other player could have nothing on the table when the die.  Workshop going first is not that much different than Workshop going second.  So really the reason why Belcher is interesting and viable despite its inconsistency is what happens when it works.  It just WINS.  That is so huge that, obviously, it is worth risking some lack of consistency for.  Workshop has no "big splash, game over (literally)" turn.  It can make things hard, but it is virtually impossible to win on turn 1 (is it even theoretically possible?).

Finally, Workshop mana, as has been pointed out, is not the same as colorless mana, adding yet another layer to the inconsistency.  There are two reasons, merely theoretical, that indicate why Workshop is not a permanent Dark Ritual.  First it provides only colorless mana.  Second this mana can only be used to cast spells.  Workshop is limited in the opposite way that [card]Thran Turbine[/card] is limited.  While Workshop is significantly more flexible is not the all out, balls to the walls, brokenness that its detractors believe it is.  


Now for specifics:

VGB:

Obviously Long was underplayed, but that doesn't change the fact that the deck was horribly inconsistent and excruciatingly difficult to pilot. As to whether Workshop has been broken, seriously, you have to be joking.

I select this quote as a sort of general warning.  Lines like "you can't be serious," "you have to be joking," and the like are AWFUL ARGUMENTS.  You need to make the case.  Prove your point using accepted methods.  Don't just disagree and say that the other side is crazy.  That is not acceptable in a school paper, in a court room, at a tournament, in a debate, in a political race, or here.  It is not acceptable ANYWHERE where rational debate is valued.  

Tormod's Crypt is a Welder hate card

That is wrong.  Tormod's Crypt was initially included in SBs as a solution to Dragon decks.  It incidentally hates Welder.  

I have the facts to prove that I am anything but.

You may the facts to prove such an assertion but you do not have the behavior or etiquette.  Furthermore, let's be really honest--a vast number of TMD people are EXTREMELY smart.  You are nothing special here.  You might be in your home town or in your high school or college class, but here you are just like the rest of us--smarter than most elsewhere but average here.

[goober]

God damn it, I made a huge post, then it was closed so I lost it.

I sincerely wasn't joking, because it hasen't been.  You yourself say you played Long a lot (despite not knowing how consistant it was).  LED was far more borken than Workshop ever was.  Workshop is broken, but not LED/Gush/FoF broken.

Long was insanely consistant.  Everyone who playtested it knew it beat anything and everything.  I tested post Chalice, post Trinisphere, post (insert unbeatable hoser) and it still won more often then lost.  Also, Workshop decks have been given time to get popular, unlike Long.  It was in its infancy as far as development and playskill, while Workshop is a decade into it.

As for their smoke and mirrors arguments, disprove them.  Meet the requirements for restriction, and back your points up.  Get some data where Workshops are winning everywhere.  While it does have a lot of top8s, it isn't nearly as dominant as GAT was.  Being a little bit on top of the other tier 1 decks isn't a problem.  Some deck has to be the best, so even if Workshops were it isn't by enough of a margin to warrant restriction.

Calling Kevin Cron's Stax bad is hilarious.

EDIT: VGB, disprove these:

1) Is the card the key factor in an dominant deck?
No, it is key factor in a popular deck, which is performing well but not dominating.

2) Is the card a key factor in a deck that is excessively metagame distorting?
It is shaping the metagame as far as people need to sideboard some hate, but nothing more.

3) Is the card too powerful on its own?
No, the deck needs to be built around artifact mana.

4) Does the card distort 1.5?
Dunno.

5) Does a card create an unrecoverable early game swing?
It can, but often it is recoverable if you built you SB correctly.

[Smmenen]

Mods, if you are reading this thread, please shut it down.  It is unproductive, unnecessarily duplicative, disrespectful to members of the community that have earned respected, and poorly argued.  

Unproductive? We wouldn't have awesome posts like yours just now.  
People are clearly concerned on one side of this issue.  Rather than let it unhealthily fester, opening up the laundry to air dry once in a while is a good idea.  Oberg wrote long article that deserves a reply in a post-Crucible context.

[monstre]

It has been pointed out that workshop decks have gained a lot from the mirrodin block and that they are unlikely to do so again in the near future. This is why now is a good time to have this debate. If it turns out that trinisphere and crucible are not enough to push workshop over the edge, so be it, but comments like Ric's can be very stifling. I can't believe the fact that mishra's workshop is one of the strongest unrestricted cards is even contentious and a careful examination of its impact is certainly warranted. People who entertain the possibility of a restriction may be wrong, but they're hardly crazy.

I have voiced my concern that the wait-and-see approach, although usually sound, does not work in this case. Limited availability skews the "popularity as a measure of power" argument. I am worried that the deck which is propably the most expensive to build (or requires at least 10 proxies to function properly) is not fair game for discussion until it starts to show up everywhere in large numbers. That simply can't happen unless 10 proxy tournaments become the norm, but that's a whole other can of worms. I think the question is one of deck quality and not quantity.

Now, is anyone going to address my concerns or will I be ignored, ridiculed and then forced to silence? I'm not even arguing for workshop's restriction, just pointing out that some arguments against it are fallacious. I think the question should be wether the field is being unduly influenced by the presence of workshops (however underplayed) and, if so, whether its overall effect is beneficial or detrimental. Let's try and keep the knee-jerk rethoric to a minimum please. Thank you.

[Whatever Works]

This looks like a SCG thread that was posted by the timmy playing elfs who lost to a welder/trisk, but besides the point that though thread is producing good info, its all 1 sided and my arguement will remain with that side,because there are no reasons for the card to get restricted that make any logical sense. A few reasons why Workshop shouldnt be even considered for restriction.

1.) Im tired of hearing lotus every turn ability etc. and i dont even have to argue that the card is narrow. Its fast mana, but thats type 1. Is it a broken card yes???

TYPE 1 is THE BROKEN FORMAT... because it plays BROKEN CARDS!!! I dont care how broken workshop is as long as the metagame is balanced. I dont need to hear more people shove GenCon top8 lists in my face, because when i was there watching the final tables people werent talking about workshop... people were talking about the possibility of having 3 Dragon decks, or even 2-3 Mono blue decks in the top 8!!!

Seriously, If dragon had 3 spots in the top 8 would this topic be called, "how healthy is Bazaar of Baghdad in T1"???

2.) Its very difficult to point to a deck and go omg broken, IF you dont know your metagame. People love to follow trends and get absorbed at times, and that can really screw things up. Its not that hard to hate out artifact decks, and the decks that had the best answers were the decks that had the best sideboards. Notice the only fish deck to top 8 ran more basic lands then the normal build to combat crucible (the real problem in my opinion).

Workshop really isnt the every turn lotus unless your running an all artifact deck (which is rarely the case). Its limited, and its not the hardest card to counteract... If they go workshop trinisphere, and u wasteland them you completely annilahate tempo. anyone in there right mind is more afraid of Goblin Welder then workshop. Workshops power diminishes late game when welders ability blossums, and grants a much greater ammount of mana in turns of exchanging cards, and powerful plays. However, that card is easily hated out by fire/ice... BEB... STP.. ETC... then again same goes for workshop decks... and just like when people werent ready for dragon (and then hated dragon out of the format) the same can occur for workshop.

Err... 8 different decks in a top 8... thats pretty healthy to me, and for people to base results on just 1 tournement isnt really fair either. You cant go omg restrict it because of good results, especially in the case of GenCon because T1 is in the middle of a Metagame shift.

Great threats need Great answers. Type 1 has infinate sideboard options, and much more powerful options then any of the other formats. I see no realistic reason why decks shouldnt be able to deal with workshop ... accept they already can... Workshop hasnt won anything of IMPORTANCE>.. NOTHING... you can show as many european results as you like, but untill the deck wins something I couldn't care less.

Type 1 is a broken format why should we try to restrict broken cards??? If workshop has to go in your mind... go play type 2...

P.S. Please note the fact that the top 8 at GenCon were all very very respectable top skilled players. NOT a single player who could be called average made the T8. Reaching the top 8 does take a bit of luck, but it still shows that player skill is key to success, and its not this so called "1st turn lock" format that (can occur occasionaly), but thats not primarily the fault of workshop... why kill an entire archtype when you can just sidestep the problem?

@whoever posted before me: In New England 10 Proxy tournements are now the norm, and consider most people are partially powered to fully powered to begin with. Workshop hasnt done incredibly here, and it has been a popular deck that seems common play. If we are talking untapped/unplayed pottential it would be dragon that seems to always have 1-2 people playing it in entire tourney with usually both being near the higher tables.

[M]

So one of the reasons you want to restrict it is because it is hard to find?!?!?!  WHAT THE HELL?

No, you still don't get it. One of the reasons for restriction given in the article (the reason I was referring to) is that Workshop is powerful enough to restrict in T1. The fact that playsets are overrepresented in sanctioned top 8's IN SPITE OF their extreme rarity (even when compared to power cards) is a measure of, or if you will EVIDENCE of the Workshops power. The argument is not that price or rarity are causes for restriction, rather those things combined with a statistical trend constitute a form of evidence of true power.

If there were more Workshops floating around, there would definitely be more Workshop based decks in European top 8's. The only thing preventing Workshop decks from dominating MORE than half of the field right now is the limited number of playsets. And a limited print run is NOT a good reason not to restrict obviously broken cards (Richard Garfield made that mistake once).

[Whatever Works]

No, you still don't get it. One of the reasons for restriction given in the article (the reason I was referring to) is that Workshop is powerful enough to restrict in T1. The argument is not that price or rarity are causes for restriction, rather those things combined with a statistical trend constitute a form of evidence of true power.

This to me makes no sense. If your saying this your saying that Force of will and mana drain should both be restricted because they are overpowered, and commonly played.

People tend to forget this at times but Workshop is alot like FoW in that it really helps to balance out the format. If it wasnt for Workshop we would be set back 3 years with old keeper decks (well not that far.) but if workshop was gone Combo would be king (which makes me wonder why Smmenen isnt going restrict it so deathlong.dec rules world!!!). Also if workshop was gone the format would run alot more controlish decks, and alot of card options, and decks just wouldnt be availible.

This is one messed up perspective, but puts things into life:

If you have ever seen the movie "A wonderful life"... just think of the world as the metagame, and the main character as Mishras workshop... then think of the metagame without him... really really bad... then you come to realize wow!!! the metagame with workshop is balanced and great! the new set wont make the deck any better (from all forshadowing signs)... What a wonderful metagame.

[monstre]

Truisms like "type 1 is the broken format" are designed to avoid the question. It certainly doesn't mean that anything goes. We want a level playing field and if the combination of workshop and trinisphere (or crucible) proves too strong, the rational thing to do would be to contemplate the restriction of either card. I'm not saying we're quite there yet, but my limited experience has me worried. Let's not have anymore of that "go play type 2" nonsense please.

[Whatever Works]

We want a level playing field and if the combination of workshop and trinisphere (or crucible) proves too strong, the rational thing to do would be to contemplate the restriction of either card.

Exactly how has workshop prooved itself to be "too strong"??? Show me a tournement with over 100 people and 10 proxys even with more then 6 of the top 8 decks run 4 workshops and where a workshop deck actually wins... and then i might be able to see the dominace your describing.

 I cant count GenCon to much because alot of it came down to tiebrakers, and you know how tie-breakers feel about the dutch... I wont even go into vancouver Canada... poor dragon.dec (your great performances out of top8 prevent your deck from being called overpowered till it then places 2nd in a major tournement and has its best land source called too good.)

[monstre]

Exactly how has workshop prooved itself to be "too strong"???

I never said that. I'm merely acknowledging the possibility of discussion and I have explained twice already why workshops can't possibly meet the unrealistic standards you people have put forward in order to prove that. I wish someone would take me up on that, because we're talking around each other here. I don't know, maybe I'm on crack, but my objections still stand until someone actually tries to address them. I'm not holding my breath though...