Will type 1.5 Hurt/destroy Vintage? (I know im scared)

[Whatever Works]

There has been a large buzz going around sinse they seperated "vintage" and type 1.5 from each other. It has drawn alot of attention from newer and older players alike, and is going to be the next big think sinse it will be replacing the old extended that was despised sinse it cycled out dual lands.

This being said is anyone scared that it could possibly hurt the fastest growing format in the game??? We already know that within 3 months type 1.5 (or whatever name it has been given) will become 10x bigger. Talking to the locals they think that type 1 could possibly be destroyed from this format, and even gave me the following lists of reasons.

1.) Type 1.5 is cheaper

1.A) Type 1.5 will attract budget players who might have played budget type 1 decks (who very possibly would of upgraded to semi/fully powered decks over time).

2.) The Type 1.5 tournements will be sanctioned (this isnt realistic in type 1 in most areas, because of the proxy rule), and for some reason thats beyond me alot of people care about ratings. Heck, type 2 players wont play in tournements if they believe there precious rating might take a hit.

3.) Its the new thing on the block, and WoTC seems pretty dedicated to it hitting the pro tour. (and odvious the JSS series)

4.) Newer players will most likely pick up on type 1.5 before they would pick up on type 1. This would create a cycle that could possible kill type 1 or "vintage".

New Players ---> Play type 1.5
Budget T1 Players ---> Switch to type 1.5
Powered T1 Players --> Slowly become dieing breed, and as they quit over the next 5 years there wont be replacements.

I would also like to give the following advise about prices.
Load up on all the dual lands you can get (even non blue 1's), because of the new format the prices of Duels/FoW/Chains of Mephistofeles (Sp?), and several of the harder to get cards that arent banned will take a huge huge jump in value as every1 who leapfrogs onto this new format will be trying to get in. I can visualize duels easily over $30 each.

Another example is the new 1.5 section that was created already has had more posts in it then Vintage section has had in the last several months. This shows that already its drawing interest from some of the best minds in the game away from type 1 to type 1.5 (even if its just casually or for just the thrill of trying to break a new format). The fact that there is interest from a format we all laughed at for so long is encouraging to a degree, and im happy Zherbus is supporting it, but on another level i hope people dont come to themanadrain.com just to read 1.5 strategy.

This scary view though i hope is not true is just the local Connecticut rumor mill, and i just wanted to ask if anybody else noticed this???

[jpmeyer]

They're both very different formats.  I doubt that they'll do much to each other.

[pox_reborn]

Not very likely that 1.5 will hurt vintage but extended on the other hand...

Most likely the powered 1.5 with mana drain and bazzar and workshop will go to type 1 and just use the 5 proxy to get their power. If this new 1.5 is treated like extended, then most people would find it unenjoyable amid constant bannings so that the power level equals out.

The reason type 1 is special because of its method of balance. You can use brokeness but it is evened out by them using their own brokenness.

This quote by David Sirlin should help sum up how vintage is different from other formats and this philosophy will seperate this format giving it a unique style that will atract players to vintage:


"The Capcom Principle"

"Capcom has a really interesting take on game balance. “Back in the day� they might have tried a more…traditional method of balancing, but these days I’m convinced they have a rather unique way of doing things. Here’s the Capcom Principle of Balance:

Give every character something “so good that it’s broken.� Include so much variety that by the time anyone ever figures out which broken thing actually does ruin the game—the game will be dead by then anyway.

Clever, really. They understand balance vs. variety well. They create as much variety as possible, making balancing so impossible, that not only can they not do really do it, but even the huge gaming audience is faced with a task that takes at least a year to sort out.

Capcom will give only this character an instant speed, long-range throw, only this character a ridiculously fast walking speed, only these characters an air-throw. Now hand out the unfair stuff, one or two to each character. Mix it up real good, and bam, now it has so much variety and “imbalance� that in a weird way everything becomes “fair� again. Every character can emphasize their own little unfair thing and considering all the variety thrown in for kicks, there’s bound to be some way to stop said unfair thing somehow. This is the essence of Marvel vs. Capcom 2."

[Zherbus]

Most everyone plays multiple formats, it broadens your horizens. In the last 3 years alone I've drafted a shitload, played in many Type 2 MODO tournaments, played Extended, and showed up at a few local 1.5 events. Doing all of this and staying on top of Type 1 as my favorite format wasn't hard at all.

[Whatever Works]

Im very happy to hear such a resounding responce supporting type 1, but my poll was to just see if anyone was worried about the *possible* effects that this format could have on type 1.

However, I will get somewhat worried if the people who run the 40-50ish people type 1 tournements start to change to 1.5 for a bigger attendence from sanctioning a tournement. I know that at my tiny local store the second the started to run sanctioned tournements for type 1 or whatever format was currently being played on the given week the attendence was over double.

Does anyone agree that it would probably be incredibly smart to load up on duels while they still are relatively cheap, because they will jump in price when this format gets off the ground (this is the case every extended season when a new block rotates in, or the opposite when a type 2 set rotates out of use.

[jpmeyer]

Sanctioning is a good point.  With a lot (not all, but a lot) of the card access questions gone, now WotC can have real sanctioned tourney data to base decisions in 1.5 on.

[Whatever Works]

Sanctioning is a good point.  With a lot (not all, but a lot) of the card access questions gone, now WotC can have real sanctioned tourney data to base decisions in 1.5 on.

Imagine if it hits the pro-tour... that will add several thousand players to the format, and then consider all the JSS kids picking up the format. Factor in the thousands of people, and then factor in the limits on Dual lands that already exist amonst the too be much smaller community of type 1 players. Supply and Demand hasnt been this big sinse the spice trade.

[Zherbus]

First, it's DUAL land as in double. Duel would be like people fighting. double lands or fighting lands? Sorry, but it's a huge pet peeve of mine.

Secondly, Extended was all about Force of Will and dual lands just like a year and a half ago. That had thousands and thousands of players, and it got along just fine.

[Whatever Works]

First, it's DUAL land as in double. Duel would be like people fighting. double lands or fighting lands? Sorry, but it's a huge pet peeve of mine.

Secondly, Extended was all about Force of Will and dual lands just like a year and a half ago. That had thousands and thousands of players, and it got along just fine.

I edited and changed the spelling on "DUAL" lands. I hate spelling mistakes. Concerning the price on DUAL lands however it should be made of note that a year ago you could buy most Blue DUAL lands for about $10-14 each. Today, Its hard to find a blue duel thats selling for less then $18. This is without type 1.5 having an impact. Time might have an impact on the situation as most old cards have skyrocketed in the last year. Your arguement is very strong that there probably will be enough duels to go around, but with the prices today already high, and an increase on demand it might just be something to watch. I am going to pick up a few extra DUAL lands if i can, and if they dont go up in price I can at least know that they wont go down.

[urza_insane]

I'm not worried about Vintage being destroyed, it'll always be the "cooler" format to play. Who doesn't like being able to play with all of their cards? Broken things are fun and make the game more interesting. We might loose some budget players, but all that means is tournys might be a little harder. Is that a bad thing though? I hate playing against random noobs all the time, i like a challenge. I also believe that those who would have bought power are still going to buy power, even if they also play 1.5.

I would, however, like to know why everybody is so sure 1.5 will become a Pro Tour format. There is a chance it will happen, but everybody is talking like its fact.

What I am worried about is that if 1.5 does become a Pro Tour format and hordes of people start to jump on board Wizards might get the bright idea to reprint dual lands in all their glory. This would cause a $5-10 price drop (depending on what they're at at the time). I don't want to buy up Duals (as you suggested) if they're going to drop in price. It's probably unlikely that they'll be reprinted, but if they start to become impossible to get, you never know. I think buying up Force of Will is a better idea personally. Any other thoughts on this?

Just my $0.005

[Ric_Flair]

This is all some serious chicken little, sky is falling crap.  This format is designed to be the mirror opposite of Vintage: totally accessible and free of combo (they sorta failed on the second point, but let's wait and see if that is entirely true).  When Goblin Recruiter and Illusionary Mask are banned you know they are doing two or three things: 1) making the format slow; 2) getting rid of combo; and 3) making the cardpool cheap.  This is the totaly opposite of Vintage.  The format that is at risk is Extended.  I would not mind seeing Extended go by the wayside as it is constantly a problem, what without Force of Will to keep combo in check.  It is like a garden--it constantly needs pruning--and that is a serious problem.  With the cards in "1.5" right now I see the format as needing a bit more correction and then they can let it go.  Force of Will, while really powerful, creates a natural metagame balance.  Just so long as control is not too strong (which is a real possibility with Force and Fact or Fiction).

What I am worried about is that if 1.5 does become a Pro Tour format and hordes of people start to jump on board Wizards might get the bright idea to reprint dual lands in all their glory. This would cause a $5-10 price drop (depending on what they're at at the time). I don't want to buy up Duals (as you suggested) if they're going to drop in price. It's probably unlikely that they'll be reprinted, but if they start to become impossible to get, you never know.

Your wrong.  We do know.  Numerous people, Rosewater, Buehler, and many others, have emphatically stated time and again they will NEVER reprint dual lands for power reasons.