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Author Topic: SuperGro, Parfait and other 'dead' decks  (Read 5782 times)
MuzzonoAmi
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« on: September 05, 2004, 10:47:17 pm »

With the metagame slowing down to a point where MonoU can be considered a serious contender, are other decks that had previously been written off as outdated/outclassed up for re-review? I personally think that SuperGro has alot of potential, especially with powerful anti-Workshop spells like Cataclysm in addition to Disenchant effects. Kowal has spoken of great testing results with his Parfait build. And other older decks seem to be at a point where they may become viable again. With unrestricted Earthcraft, Enchatnress variants have a powerful new tool to use, and from my limited testing, have alot of potential for evolution. Does anyone else think that these (or other) decks have potential in the new meta?
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« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2004, 10:59:52 pm »

I've tried messing with mono-green Earthcraft, but it's got a big problem in that only your Xantid Swarms and Squirrel Nests are threats against control decks.  If you dilute the enchantment engine more (to add say, Replenish or Eternal Witness,) the deck was fizzling too much.  My build was something like this:

14 Forest

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
1 Mox Diamond

4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Verduran Enchantress
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Squirrel Nest
4 Earthcraft
4 Enchantress' Presence
4 Wild Growth
4 [card]Fertile Ground[/card] or Gaea's Touch
4 Exploration
1 Fastbond
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Team Meandeck: "As much as I am a clueless, credit-stealing, cheating homo I do think we would do well to consider the current stage of the Vintage community." -Smmenen
MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2004, 11:32:52 pm »

Very interesting. I think I'll take that into consideration as a direction to take my Enchantress build. Right now I need to adapt my unpowered WGb Enchantress to the modern meta and add some more acceleration, at least the on-color moxen and a Lotus. This is an interesting take on the Enchantress engine, though.
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« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2004, 05:42:41 am »

[EDIT: Godder PMed me to point out that I am illiterate, so one of my silly recommendations is baleted.] I'd cut Verduran Enchantresses one by one for disruptive enchantments like Ground Seal or City of Solitude (yep, maindeck!) until you start to feel like you're running out of card-drawing. Next, cut the Fertile Ground/Gaea's Touch for two more Forests (you are not getting your mileage out of Exploration with just 14 lands) and two City of Solitude. These changes are just my "whoa, to me this is obvious" thoughts from Enchantress testing in February with the GW control version, because back then, 6-7 enchantress effects was the accepted norm, so 12 brings on the sensation that you're doing nothing but drawing cards. If you feel up to it, maindecking Choke is guaranteed to make your "I'm a dick" rating inch upward a few notches. With the AoS combo legal, my pessimistic outlook on Enchantress decks might be invalidated, but the serious problem with this deck was always the dependence on spells which walk into Mana Drain in a huge way. The first serious thing you do, bam, they Berserk you out or Scrying into two more counterspells, rendering the rest of the game a formality, or worse, Mind Twist you.

SuperGro I think is still a poor idea, no matter how much I like Mystic Enforcer. The problem with it is that Psychatog is more menacing than Enforcer against non-aggro decks. Enforcer is a decent body for four mana, and flying is helpful, but in order to play it you have to skip (or at least should be skipping, thanks to CoW) a good color like black to play white---and you're not playing with Exalted Angel, or (probably) Balance, white's best cards.

Parfait has such a huge matchup-dependent victory plan that I don't trust it, though it can occasionally win through. It's just too vulnerable for me to think of it as decent. (Oh, and Kowal's testing results are amazing for everything. He's the Smmenen of bad decks. <3 )
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« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2004, 09:15:54 am »

Gaea's Touch is so important though since it can also be sacrificed for two green mana. That means that at worst case it's cantrips with at least one Enchantress out. I would definately leave those in.
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Roxas
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« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2004, 10:38:01 am »

Quote from: Dr. Sylvan
Alright, step one, Enchantress's Presence over Verduran.


They're in there.  He has twelve enchantresses, and I would never run fewer than eleven; otherwise, the deck stalls too often.

I've been testing mono-g and G/w versions for a little while now, and have come to the conclusion that trying to go for pure speed is not an effective strategy.  Almost all other combo decks will be able to race you,  and it isn't terribly difficult for aggro-control to counter your combo pieces long enough to win.  There are a few options I've thought of:

1.  Running a U/g version, like what is being discussed in the Open Vintage thread.  While this does have merits, you're probably better off playing Trix if you're going to play a blue deck with a two-card combo.

2.  Playing a mono-green version with maindeck Null Rod and Root Maze.  Explorations and the enchantment acceleration put you at an advantage under Root Maze, so you'll have a better chance against combo and possibly Control Slaver.

3.  One could play a G/w control version of this, seeking to play an enchantress effect and a Solitary Confinement to hold out until the combo can be found.  I personally doubt this can work, since it is somewhat slow and quite risky, but it might be worth a try.

4.  Somewhat a combination of #2 and #3: starting with a decklist similar to what JP posted earlier, but with some combination of Solitary Confinement, Root Maze, Null Rod, Ground Seal, Seal of Cleansing, Oxidize, and Engineered Explosives (for Chalices) between the maindeck and the sideboard.  This is what I've had the most success with so far, but I'm having trouble finding room for everything I need - enchantments are just too damn narrow Sad

As far as SuperGro, as stated earlier, Psychatog is just too much better for it to work.  Unless a version that has a better game against workshops than Tog can be built, there's no reason to play it.

The problem with Parfait is that it just sits on its ass while opponents do broken stuff.  It still has the same problem that has plagued enchantment-based decks since their invention - they are control decks that lack Force of Will.  That being said, it -does- have a respectable chance of winning against anything non-combo.  Because it will almost surely lose to any form of combo, however, the chances of it making top8 at a competitive tournament are rather slim.
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MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2004, 01:33:51 pm »

Interestingly, Razor had success with Cherry Parfait at GenCon, and from the testing I started on today, it can be tweaked to at least steal a single game each match from combo. While Kowal is awesome with bad decks (and I'm admittedly quite good with terrible decks and cards as well)  there is something to be said for the fact that it can be done.

The reason I was talking SuperGro was that Gro-A-Tog has a terrible matchup against Control Slaver, and with White added to the Gro skeleton (which seems better than Black right now, since all Black gives Gro is Duress and Night's Whisper, gives it a solid combo matchup (between Chant/Abeyance and FoW, there shouldn't be much of a problem) and an improved Workshop matchup because it doesn't get raped by 3sphere. White also gives nifty little answers like Cataclysm which just wins games when it resolves.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2004, 01:44:53 pm »

People need to read the first five-six paragraphs of my article on mono blue two monday's ago to understand why its' good instead of assuming that its good for the reasons stated here.
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MuzzonoAmi
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« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2004, 08:22:04 pm »

So the same metagame conditions that are allowing MonoU to come back are ones that should make SuperGro better that MonoU (which looses to it)?
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Quote from: Matt
Zvi got 91st out of 178. Way to not make top HALF, you blowhard
Smmenen
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« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2004, 08:40:52 pm »

Except Super Gro has 1 Gush.
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Razvan
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« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2004, 11:36:56 am »

Mono U... ugh... damn you Smmenen for bringing that up again. Very Happy

Mono U relies on Back to Basics, obviously. Otherwise, I really can't see how it wins. Maybe I am totally missing something, but in every other matchup, the deck seems to be slower and weaker than other control decks.

The alpha and omega of it's broken plays seems to be first turn B2B... it's consistent in that regard, but still...

On the flip side, it murders Workshop decks... when you have to play against B2B and 1-3 Energy Flux on the board at ONCE... bloody hell, that's a game.

Quote
People need to read the first five-six paragraphs of my article on mono blue two monday's ago to understand why its' good instead of assuming that its good for the reasons stated here.


Quite honestly, I feel really stupid, but I honestly can't see why it's good, other than the environment REALLY left itself vulnerable to B2B (sort of like Workshop decks leave themselves vulnerable to Null Rod, which is nowhere close to as bad as B2B and Flux)... Sad
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Smmenen
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« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2004, 05:06:14 pm »

It's good becuase all the bad matchups went away.  That's all there is to it.
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