[discussion] a look at the bombs of 4cC

[orgcandman]

The goal of this thread isn't really to try and prove whether or not certain cards are bombs in 4cC. Rather, I'd like to try and get some discussion going on whether certain cards (such as mind twist, and crucible) deserve less or more slots (well...mind twist is 1of so either SB or MD). Also, the discussion of City of Brass (what is the optimal number) and even win conditions (2/1 configuration, 3/0 configuration, and 3/1 configuration of angel/DoJ) is fine as long as we don't get into pissing matches (simply stating 3/1 config is better with no reasoning behind it is unacceptable).

Let's first look at the bombs and what I believe their strengths and weaknesses are:

* Balance (kerz will never live this one down )
  - Armageddon, Mind Twist, and Wrath of God wrapped up into one. I don't believe any more discussion on this card is needed as the thread in newbie was good enough to show that this is a maindeck card that absolutely shines in any matchup.

* Mind Twist
  - Wrecks the control mirror
  - Weak vs. welder based decks, and decks that work out of the 'yard or don't care about hand size (read: most combo and welder based decks)
  - Mediocre with the amount of Misdirections being run in the field

* Crucible of Worlds
  - Made a somewhat shaky mana base smoother than a woman's skin
  - Allows the deck another dimension (mana denial) without severly altering its makeup

* Cunning Wish
  - Pitchable to force
  - Fetches possibly needed answers and allows the deck to take full advantage of the sideboard.
  - A lot of mana to get small answers

* City of Brass
  - Allows the deck to support 4 colors and 5 strips.
  - 1pt will add up vs. aggressive matchups

* Exalted Angel
  - Spirit linked 4/5 flyer. Awesome sauce.
  - color intensive at WW


My current configuration is such:

3 Cunning Wish - I am test this as a 2-of, but I am really fond of a 3-of because I am guaranteed to get this at least twice per game at 3, and it's usually game breaking to wish for vamp, and vamp for balance, yawg, crucible, or some other powerful spell.

2 Exalted - I don't see the deck as needing 3. A few swings with this is game, and I know I can tutor it out somehow as the deck runs more draw and tutor than most.

1 Decree - Although this is an incredible drain sink, or a mid game tempo swing, I'd rather see an angel than this. However, and uncounterable win condition is definately a good thing.

2 Crucible of Worlds - This card is so good, I feel that a backup is needed in case of cunning wish->artifact destruction, or some other problem where crucible goes away. This card makes the mana base work, and allows for so many tricks it's scary.

Mind Twist to the side - This card has recently started letting me down, and I've relegated it to the SB to make sure I still have it for a needed matchup (Smmenen U) but other than that, I just don't feel that it's a good enough spell main anymore.

Oh, and I am running Balance, as tutor balance happens almost every game, and it usually wins the game for me single handedly.

Aaron

[Tolarianacademy]

have you ever tryed to play without angel?
actualy the mirror of keeper is played only for see who cast crucible first.
so, when my opponent had casted his crucible my angel is complitely a dead card in hand.

try this: -2 exalted +1 shaman +1 decree

[orgcandman]

I don't see how you can support scrying and cob without angel. it literally is too hungry along with force pitches to allow you to keep up your intense drain into your life total. At least, if you use scrying as often as I use scrying, which is right after draining something big.

I do agree that I'd like to see more shaman. However, I'm finding it hard to cut anything to keep him in. I'm having trouble just cutting a wish for an extra piece of spot removal.

Decree is one of those cards where it's either a great thing to see or something you don't want in hand. Versus the random parfait player in my area I love seeing decree. Versus everyone else, it's entirely situational, and sometimes I'll end up cycling it eot with some untapped mana to make some d00ds and swing. It's definately one of those cards though where you want to hold on and make the best use possible when sometimes the best use is to just cycle it right away and dig for an angel.

Aaron

[LoA]

Balance: Too much of a bomb not to run.  I've cut Mind Twist so this functions as my discard as well.  Sometimes a hassle with Trinisphere out when you're trying to come back from a slow start, but still worth it.

Mind Twist: I've already posted about this elsewhere, but it may remain in my SB for the time being.  I'll be testing Cranial Extraction as well in that slot.

Crucible of Worlds: Last week I got more wins from this card than I did Exalted Angel.  I think a total of 2-3 (depending on metagame) between the maindeck and the SB is sufficient.  I'm not crazy about my current manabase and this helps ease my mind slightly.

Cunning Wish: A fantastic card.  I would have a really hard time going under 3.  Getting back cards pitched to Force of Will is a great added bonus that a lot of people don't see coming.

City of Brass: Better now that the environment is slower.  3 might be the right number since it allows for a basic Island.  Fetchlands and this do make for a tough aggro match-up, but...

Exalted Angel: ...the lifegain from these gals will win the aggro match for you.  Decree is nice if you see control all day long, but Decree doesn't swing games for you in the same way that an Angel can.  With so many fat bodies out there I want a clock, not a few token blockers (besides, I have Shaman for the chump role).  Losing something to sink mana into is tough but tough choices are part of deckbuilding I suppose.

[Falc]

I'm currently running a 3/1 config of Angel/DoJ.  My metagame is fairly aggro, so I found that two Angel just wasn't getting me one soon enough.  I refuse to cut the DoJ mainly because of the control matchup where DoJ slips past counterspells for a big win, but also because of a unique feature of my metagame where Diabolic Edict is the most popular spell in the room.

I cut Mind Twist as well for the second Crucible.  It's great after a Mana Drain, but otherwise it's only ho-hum and often is the wrong play.

I'm also down to two Cunning Wish.  It's a great card and it's pitchable, but it's very slow.  I wouldn't mind squeezing the third back in there, but there just isn't room for me right now.

I've been experimenting with Gemstone Mine instead of City of Brass and I must say that it's worth a try.  Once I started running two Cruicble main and one side I realized that it has great synergy with Gemstone Mine for painfree 5-color mana.  If you run out of counters, you simply re-play it and start over (though honestly, I rarely need to tap a Mine more than three times anyway).

For the budget players out there, another great synergy with Crucible is Mox Diamond.  Discard a land to play the Diamond and then re-play that land later once you get Crucible online.  It allows the budget player to get UU on turn one for the quick Mana Drain.

[Whatever Works]

have you ever tryed to play without angel?
actualy the mirror of keeper is played only for see who cast crucible first.
so, when my opponent had casted his crucible my angel is complitely a dead card in hand.

try this: -2 exalted +1 shaman +1 decree

Running no angels is a crime. Its like playing the old out of date keeper that is inferior.

[JuJu]

Okay I'm just gonna go in order that People gave me.
Balance - Been done to death. No more explaining for people.
Mind Twist - I'd rather run Decree of Justice, which I'm doing. Decree is better then Mind Twist if not just as good, especially in the mirror. Decree helps against Stax(Which is very strong, but hard to pilot), It's good vs Fish(Stifle Can cause problems, But not too much). It isn't even that bad vs Aggro cause 4/4 Angels are mighty good. Of course it's expensive to play. But if you're going to tell the opponent to blow you while doing it. So be it.
Crucible - I'm not impressed at all. I've been testing it and it hasn't impressed me at all. It looks great on paper. Like alot of cards do. but it's just horrible in game. I've been trying one in my sideboard for decks that really have fragile mana bases. But I haven't seen it come in because other cards are better.
Cunning Wish - If you're running less then 3 then you're not playing control, you're playing too agressively.
CoB - I tried 3 with and Island had to go to 2/2/2 for duals and it was horrific. I really couldn't care less about the hosing of mana people are running nowadays. About the only deck that scares me at all is Mono-U and URPhid and both decks aren't commonly played well or often
Exalted Angel - These are amazing. It's mind boggling when you see people not running it. But I can understand people wouldn't too.
Gemstone Mine - CoB is better, Mine should only be played if you're in a realy heavy control meta where you run more DoJ then Angels and have Crucibles.

Now, I'm going to add whatever cards you've missed
DoJ - I'm missing these more and more. I finally decided to just dump them back into the maindeck cause honestly, it's going to swing games very fast.
Basic Island - Read CoB basically. Sometimes I like having this in play, other times I hate it, it's actually preference dependant and meta dependant.
Shaman - I still have no idea why people aren't running 2 of these.

[Falc]

Crucible - I'm not impressed at all. I've been testing it and it hasn't impressed me at all. It looks great on paper. Like alot of cards do. but it's just horrible in game. I've been trying one in my sideboard for decks that really have fragile mana bases. But I haven't seen it come in because other cards are better.

I'm sorry, but you're missing the boat on Crucible.  It's amazing against all matchups.  Let's run down the list of uses real quick.

1. Fixes your mana by allowing you to recur fetchlands and never miss a land drop.
2. Keeps you from losing to your opponent's heavy Wasteland draw.
3. Wins games by allowing you to recur Wasteland or Stripmine to take out troublesome lands or even locking your opponent down (esp. in the mirror).

It looks great on paper and it also works great in practice.  If you haven't seen it work for you, then you haven't given it enough of a chance.  Not running Crucible in 4C Control is a mistake.

- Falc

[JuJu]

I'm sorry, but you're missing the boat on Crucible.  It's amazing against all matchups.  Let's run down the list of uses real quick.

1. Fixes your mana by allowing you to recur fetchlands and never miss a land drop.
2. Keeps you from losing to your opponent's heavy Wasteland draw.
3. Wins games by allowing you to recur Wasteland or Stripmine to take out troublesome lands or even locking your opponent down (esp. in the mirror).

It looks great on paper and it also works great in practice.  If you haven't seen it work for you, then you haven't given it enough of a chance.  Not running Crucible in 4C Control is a mistake.

- Falc

1- You shouldn't be missing land drops if you are, you have draw and brainstorms to fix it
2- You have just as many wastelands as they do. You're not going to lose anymore then they have. EDIT: Honestly. I don't like it. But Do NOT tell me It's a necessity. Crucible is hype and I'm treating it that way.
3-It's a neat trick, but This isn't Prison, it's Control and Stripping a land  once *should* be enough of an opening.

[MIZEnhauer]

i previously would have went with no decrees three angels but now since the format has slowed with  Monoblue being reintroduced i think it should move to 2 decrees and 1 angel

[WildWillieWonderboy]

Mind Twist is amazing. You drain into it, nuke the opponent's hand, and force him into topdeck mode. Mono U can run counters without Twist because it has so many, 4C must have it because it needs some sort of reprieve during which it can slip in some threatening perms and recover its counter wall.

[JuJu]

Mind Twist is amazing. You drain into it, nuke the opponent's hand, and force him into topdeck mode. Mono U can run counters without Twist because it has so many, 4C must have it because it needs some sort of reprieve during which it can slip in some threatening perms and recover its counter wall.

That's why Decree took Twists Spot.

[orgcandman]

JuJu, I'm agreeing with Falc on this one. You missed the boat on the powerhouse that is crucible. Recuring wastelands/strips will win games. Last time I checked, a card that has obvious synergy with a fragile mana base, and allowed for some excellent card advantage as well as tempo advantage belonged in a deck that wants to win.

4cControl likes controlling. It doesn't matter what it's controlling, be it creatures, spells, cards in hand, or lands. All control decks are psuedo-prison, just like all prison decks are psuedo-control.

The fact is, dropping a turn 1 crucible off moxen, etc. is probably not the best play for this deck. But a mid-late game crucible can turn a loss into a win. Mid-late game, lands are something you don't want to be topping. Recurring fetches can stop this. Mid-late game, you want to start shrinking your opponents former growth. Recurring strips does this.

Just because YOU personally haven't seen how powerful a card is firsthand doesn't mean you write it off. Crucible is incredible in a good meta, where good decks are abundant. If you're in a meta where basics run rampant, obviously Crucible is a bad card, and you run better cards for that kind of a meta, such as mind twist. Don't try telling people that a card that shortens the path to victory is hype. It just shows how little you've tested it.

Aaron

[LoA]

I'm not a mod, but I have to believe if this thread boils down to "Is Crucible good in 4CC?" it will be closed because, frankly, it is good in 4CC as anyone who's played the Fish and mirror matches can tell you.

An effort to bring a little more focus to the thread:

Has anyone tested Cranial Extraction yet?  Right now Mind Twist is residing in my sideboard for non-Welder control and combo, but I am on the verge of cutting it.  However, it strikes me that Cranial Extraction would be a lot better than Mind Twist vs. these decks.  How have people weighed these two cards against one another and is there a dark horse third card that trumps both?

[Zherbus]

The thing with Cranial Extraction is that it needs to resolve before things hit play and ideally, it needs to be fueled off Drain mana (or a Lotus) so that you're not exposing yourself on the mainphase. This Criteria is generally the same as Mind Twist, except for with Mind Twist you also want to make sure Welders aren't going to use the discarded cards to their advantage, the opponent isn't packing a Misdirection, and that you aren't playing against Madness that has mana open.

In the current environment, I would say it's better than Mind Twist, but it still has it's own restrictions. For this reason I think it's a 1-of in the maindeck if maindecked at all in the first place. On the other hand, a card like this really improves the value of Mystical Tutor since you'll just love doing things like Draining an Ophidian, Mystical'ing for the Extraction and casting it naming B2B.

[orgcandman]

I can definately see where the extraction would be deserving of mind twist's sideboard slot. Usually the twist is a gamble in today's meta, whereas the extraction will allow for a much more controlled removal, and the kind of surgical precision control sometimes lacks when it comes to non-spell-based control of the opponent.

To the people running less than 2 angels, how do you see the life drain affecting you? I don't really care if your meta is "some random T2 players and me" I'm more interested in how "well-oiled" the deck feels. With 2 angels, and 1 decree, the deck feels pretty damn slick. Have people noticed configurations that aren't "win more" but allow for an easier victory path by using less win conditions?

Also, I'm very concerned about the recent uprising in blood moon and b2b. I was thinking that 3 city would allow me to drop a volcanic for a basic island and run beb in the side for the moon, and in control matchups, b2b dies to reb anyway, so I just need to resolve one and I'm set. I dunno, what are the thoughts on 3 city, 1 volc.?

[JuJu]

JuJu, I'm agreeing with Falc on this one. You missed the boat on the powerhouse that is crucible. Recuring wastelands/strips will win games. Last time I checked, a card that has obvious synergy with a fragile mana base, and allowed for some excellent card advantage as well as tempo advantage belonged in a deck that wants to win.

4cControl likes controlling. It doesn't matter what it's controlling, be it creatures, spells, cards in hand, or lands. All control decks are psuedo-prison, just like all prison decks are psuedo-control.

The fact is, dropping a turn 1 crucible off moxen, etc. is probably not the best play for this deck. But a mid-late game crucible can turn a loss into a win. Mid-late game, lands are something you don't want to be topping. Recurring fetches can stop this. Mid-late game, you want to start shrinking your opponents former growth. Recurring strips does this.

Just because YOU personally haven't seen how powerful a card is firsthand doesn't mean you write it off. Crucible is incredible in a good meta, where good decks are abundant. If you're in a meta where basics run rampant, obviously Crucible is a bad card, and you run better cards for that kind of a meta, such as mind twist. Don't try telling people that a card that shortens the path to victory is hype. It just shows how little you've tested it.

Aaron

I'm not going to argue anymore. I respect your choice. But what I've seen is no logic in it. From everything you've described. Winning Would've just been better. I'm not trying to be offensive. I'm just portraying my point.

On a different note. How was has people's matchups vs Workshop Aggro/Prison been?

[LoA]

On a different note. How was has people's matchups vs Workshop Aggro/Prison been?

The irony isn't intentional, but Crucible is pretty important in this matchup.  The key here, as it always has been, is dealing with your opponent's manabase.  Running 2 Shaman works really well since they can wipe out tempting Welder targets.  Crucible is important here for two reasons.  First, and most important, it nullifies your opponent's Crucible and both these archetypes will run somewhere between 2 and 4.  Second, it maintains the pressure on your opponent's capacity to cast spells under Trinisphere.

Cunning Wish is really important in this matchup since it can fetch Rack and Ruin and/or Disenchant.  Having access to Cunning Wish makes me much more comfortable with a Trinisphere on the board.

Workshop decks mulligan fairly often, if they do you may want to consider doing the same if you don't think you'll be able to deal with an explosive opening.

[JuJu]

LoA is Right. C-Wish is very very important. I've been testing and all the wishes had to go towards killing his artifacts. I kind of disagree about the Crucible part. Workshops tend to do something like: '"Workshop, Trini, Go" *4cc Players turn* "Play Flooded Strand, go" then the workshop players play crucible and waste. I know FoW would've stopped that Trinisphere, but the Crucible does insane damage. In all honestly, Exalted Angel and Swords, along With Wish are you best friends.

[orgcandman]

I've started testing with a manabase of:

3 city
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 island
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
7 solomoxen
4 fetch

and I've been absolutely thrilled with it. I never have a problem getting w.
I was considering dropping 1 tundra for the extra sea so that my black count would be high. However, I usually don't care about the random waste that will occasionally hit a sea. in fact, especially with crucible, this is probably the right configuration for a heavy blood moon/b2b filled meta. The basic island, combined with the blue source gives you access to cunning wish->reb/beb/disenchant

I'm not sure what people think about this mana base, and where some of it's weaknesses lie (2 volcanics is livin' on the edge). I dunno...what are people's thoughts?

As a side note: The welder-based matchups is all about fire/ice and r&r. Usually I'll board out a wish, and a stp, in order to drop 2 r&r main. However, I dunno what other people use as boarding strategies.

[JuJu]

I've started testing with a manabase of:

3 city
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 island
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
7 solomoxen
4 fetch

Why are you running more Tundra and less Volcanics when Rack and Ruin, Fire/Ice and Shaman is half your removal?

[Nehptis]

Cranial Extraction - B3 (Rare)
Sorcery - Arcane
Name a nonland card. Search target player's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with that name and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

I want to continue this part of the thread's discussion.  The more I analyze this card the more powerful it seems in some SBs.  Any deck that runs Rituals should consider this as an option for hosing decks with low numbers of win conditions.  A first or second turn Cranial Extraction seems to be lethal to some decks (Dragon-All Win Cons, TPS-Both TOAs and the DSC, Belcher-Both GC and the TOA, Deathlong-You can only get 4 of the 5 Wishes (too bad!), Ophidian-Grab the Morphlings, etc.)

As a combo player myself, I'm thinking that it might be worth a shot against other TOA decks and Belcher.  It's risky running it against control since it may hit a Mana Drain and spell disaster for you.

[JuJu]

How is Cranial Extraction better because it's new and Lobotomy bad because it's old?... Sorceries Suck. Except the 'I win' kind

[Trollstorm]

Cranial Extraction is better than lobotomy for 2 reasons.

1. it only has one colored mana symbol, and it's not dual-colored.
2. You aren't restricted to the cards in their hand. With Lobotomy, if their win isn't in their hand, you can't strip it.


Unfortunately, it's way too specialized to be useful in an environment that isn't dragon heavy, not to mention slow.

edit: I could see it being played in 1.5 as a sideboard card, however.

[Nehptis]

....Sorceries Suck. Except the 'I win' kind

I agree.  Which is why Cranial Extraction should be considered against certain matchups as a viable SB card.  Against most combo decks and non-control decks with low win conditions it is an I win card.  If you negate your opponents win conditions then they can't win.  And unless you run out of time (which shouldn't happen with a combo deck, which is what I am proposing that this be considered for as SB), then you will win.

[PittSoothSayer]

I think this will be tried in some 4cC builds for a month or so, then ultimately cut.  It just doesn't do enough for a 4cc sorcery, IMHO. Looking at matchups that it could possibly be useful:

DARgon: If you resolve this and yank all of their WGDs or their Laquatus, they still have the backup plan of reanimate a Sliver Queen and beat.  That means they have to find and reanimate her and hope you can't send her farming. If you resolve Cranial Extraction, you have most likely won that game.  The problem is that cheaper, more effective hate cards are already available.  StoP, BEB, and Stifle all make you win the game outright; the dragon player has no chance at "Plan B" if one of these resolves.

TPS: Depending on the build Extraction can either be an auto-win, or just a speed bump.  Against the decks without the Cunning Wish --> Brain Freeze option, your remove their Tendrils and it's game over. If, however, they have the Cunning Wish, all Extraction means is that they need 3UU to win instead of 2BB. I can see this being a solid 1-2 of if your meta includes a healthy number of non-Wish TPS decks.

LongDeath: You can only get 4 of their 5 Wishes, they have MD Tendrils, and a skilled pilot can go off without Wishing for YawgWin. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it being very effective in this match.

Belcher: In my experience, this is a go-for-broke deck. If they can't win in the first few turns, they won't win at all.  By the time you can cast a 4cc sorcery, the game should already be decided. I don't know anyone who is particularly good with this deck, so my testing may be a bit skewed, but Cranial Extraction just screams "win more" to me.

@Nehpits: What are these "non-control decks with low win conditions" that you speak of? Other than combo and control decks, I can't think of any that have a low number of win cinditions. Aggro, Aggro-Control, and Prision decks are all highly redundant.

[Outlaw]

Balance: Too much of a bomb not to run.  I've cut Mind Twist so this functions as my discard as well.  Sometimes a hassle with Trinisphere out when you're trying to come back from a slow start, but still worth it.

Mind Twist: I've already posted about this elsewhere, but it may remain in my SB for the time being.  I'll be testing Cranial Extraction as well in that slot.

Crucible of Worlds: Last week I got more wins from this card than I did Exalted Angel.  I think a total of 2-3 (depending on metagame) between the maindeck and the SB is sufficient.  I'm not crazy about my current manabase and this helps ease my mind slightly.

Cunning Wish: A fantastic card.  I would have a really hard time going under 3.  Getting back cards pitched to Force of Will is a great added bonus that a lot of people don't see coming.

City of Brass: Better now that the environment is slower.  3 might be the right number since it allows for a basic Island.  Fetchlands and this do make for a tough aggro match-up, but...

Exalted Angel: ...the lifegain from these gals will win the aggro match for you.  Decree is nice if you see control all day long, but Decree doesn't swing games for you in the same way that an Angel can.  With so many fat bodies out there I want a clock, not a few token blockers (besides, I have Shaman for the chump role).  Losing something to sink mana into is tough but tough choices are part of deckbuilding I suppose.

I have to agree on everything said here, with the release of Crucible of Worlds, it seems the metagame has shifted slightly to become "You play crucible, or have an answer to it."  I have recently stopped my playing of 4cc (I play control slavery now), one of the reasons I did it, was because of the 5 basic islands that I run.  We all know that 4cc + crucible, can just win with wastelock, and even if it cant manage to find a strip, fetching every turn is nutz.  I still wonder if 4cc should run a basic or so, it seems like it would significantly improve its badblood vs. B2B and Bloodmoon.

[orgcandman]

4cC isn't about being explosive. 4cC is about resolving spells that spell "I win." Cranial Extraction IS one of these cards.

If you're looking at extraction as a way to eliminate win conditions, you're looking at it too narrowly. Extraction is BETTER than other cards, in that you can deprive your opponent of the gas it needs to be able to win. Against dragon, depending on the situation, I might name necromancy instead of wgd. Extraction is a way of removing particular problem threats from the game.

I've actually taken some time to do some testing with extraction, and so far, it's proven itself as a decent card. Certainly not something that I'd need every game, however, it's definately not useless when drawn, and in general, the only times I've been unhappy with it were the times I couldn't pitch it to force when I needed to force something (that happened twice during testing, out of 15 games). This drawback is shared by mind twist as well, so I've pretty much written it off.

Especially with mind twist having knocked down a few, Extraction fills that slot nicely. I'd like to hear what other people have seen during testing.

Aaron