Drifting land cycle

[Pizzatog]

Hi, this is my first post here on the mana drain, although I've been reading the forums for a year at least. Basically, I never felt like posting until I noticed the great card creation forum you have. So, I'll start with a land cycle.... sorry, but if this is going to be my first post I might as well make it a bit of a bigger deal, no? Just a 3 card cycle, because I feel this ability is not really in flavour with red or green:



Drifting Isle
Land
When Drifting Isle comes into play, add U to your mana pool.
Remove Drifting Isle from the game, add one mana of any colour to your mana pool. Play this ability only if Drifting Isle is in your graveyard.

Drifting Bog
Land
When Drifting Bog comes into play, add B to your mana pool.
Remove Drifting Bog from the game, add one mana of any colour to your mana pool. Play this ability only if Drifting Bog is in your graveyard.

Drifting Field
Land
When Drifting Field comes into play, add W to your mana pool.
Remove Drifting Field from the game, add one mana of any colour to your mana pool. Play this ability only if Drifting Field is in your graveyard.




Basically I've wished for these any time I'm playing against recurring wastelands. There must be a combo deck that can abuse the quick mana (Something like Draw 7) or something as simple as madness. And it has good synergy with Intuiton or that new intuiton-like card. Flavourwise, they're terrains that drift through the aether coming and going between planes, kind of like on an orbit. (Kind of like graveyard lotus petals...

I dont think flavour text would actually fit on the card; but if you do, Ill come up with something.



CURRENT WORDING:
These are not a cycle anymore... so here is the final land.

Drifting Plane
Land - Mirage
When Drifting Plane comes into play, add one mana of any colour to your mana pool.
Remove Drifting Plane from the game: add one mana of any colour to your mana pool. Play this ability only if Drifting Plane is in your graveyard.

[Laurie Cheers]

Of course, Drifting Meadow already exists.

So these are lands that don't tap for mana, right? You give up your land drop to make 1 mana (only usable in your main phase), and then they just sit there and do nothing.
Interesting concept, but I'd say these are extremely weak at the moment. They need at least a "return to your hand" ability in order to be playable, IMO.

Weightless Lake
When Weightless Lake comes into play, add U to your mana pool.
T: Return Weightless Lake to your hand.

This has a different kind of "anti-wasteland" ability...

[Ephraim]

I'm not sure that this is an appropriate 3-card cycle. By your logic, white and red should not have had cycling lands, since they're not very good at drawing cards. Typically, when this degree of symmetry is displayed within a cycle, it's best to extend the cycle to all five colours. Also, anything that has the potential to generate any colour of mana is green in flavour. That's what green does!

As for the lands themselves, I can't say that I really like this idea. Yes, they technically fulfill the WotC requirement that lands produce mana, but they do so in the most spell-like way possible. I'd rather see these tap for colourless and remove themselves from the graveyard to generate a single colour. Or, drop the cycle and just create a single land that taps for colourless and removes itself from the graveyard for one of any colour. I'm not really sure why you'd wish for these when facing Wastelands, anyhow. If you had one of these in play and had already gotten the comes-into-play mana out of it, your opponent would be stupid to destroy it for you, so you could gain the remove-from-game mana from it as well.

[Bram]

Hi, this is my first post here on the mana drain, although I've been reading the forums for a year at least.

Welcome to our humble abode!

Basically, I never felt like posting until I noticed the great card creation forum you have.

Thank you.

Regarding your cards: I agree with Ephraim that all the colors can/should have access to your mechanic. I agree with Laurie Cheers that they are somewhat weak at the moment. I don't see this as a problem however. Unline Ephraim, I kinda like this idea. It's true that this mechanic is 'out of flavor' for lands, but I'm a fan of bending the rules a little (and see if they break). I like how you can sacriface these to pay for costs and still make mana with them. But then again, I tend to enjoy wacky ideas Matt and Jacob are sometimes oppose. Let's see how they feel.

However, other than 'I don't like this sort of thing', I really can't think of any reason why we couldn't do these.

You're right on the flavor text: the text lenght really deosn't support it. But I do suggest that you change the names for the reason Laurie mentioned.

[Ephraim]

Okay, I have to admit, aside from the very un-land like vibe these give off, they're kind of cool. Now that Bram brings it up, the idea of having a land that one doesn't feel bad about sacrificing to Aura Fracture or *joy* Crop Rotation is pretty nice. In fact, it would be really good to see the green land (if you make it) along with a Crop Rotation in your opening hand. Sure, you can say the same thing about any land capable of producing green, but this doesn't serve any purpose in play, so it can't really hurt to sacrifice it, PLUS it serves a good purpose in your graveyard.

Just a quick templating note, the rules text for these should read:

Remove ~this~ from the game: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Play this ability only if ~this~ is in your graveyard.

Note that there's a colon between the activation cost and the effect, rather than a comma, as you currently have. By the way, don't forget to create a Current Wording post in bold.

[Alfred]

The remove from graveyard ability is WAY too strong, think of each of these as mini-lotus petals in need of a discard outlet and you get the idea.

[Bram]

Yeah, but would a mini-lotus petal in need of a discard outlet actually be as strong as you seem to think it is?

[Laurie Cheers]

Oh, yeah! Nearly as powerful as the mighty Elvish Spirit Guide. Except you need a way to discard it.  

[Ephraim]

Not to mention that it occupies a land drop in the meantime. I don't think it's too strong. By the time you can get this to the graveyard, it's probably past the point where you're looking for mana acceleration anyhow. More than likely this'll just be used as a mana fixer.

[Matt]

I think these should be:

Drifting Bog
Land -- (subtype)
When Drifting Bog comes into play, add to your mana pool.
Remove Drifting Bog from the game: add to your mana pool. Play this ability only if Drifting Bog is in your graveyard.

There's no reason the RFG ability should be any color.

What if these were legendary? That would provide a neat way to get them in the graveyard.

[Pizzatog]

Hmm... I don't think you're actually getting how overpowered these lands are. Here are my thoughts, if you continue to differ, I'll edit them:

1) One of the reasons I made it a 3 card cycle and not 5 cards, is because I think that the right deck playing 20 of these is horribly overpowered, while 12 is a decent number. As someone mentioned before, in a madness deck or draw7, hermit druid or oath, these cards are like lotus petals, and 20 lotus petals in a deck is BAROOOKEN. Ill make it a 5 card cycle if you want though. I just picked the 3 colours I thought most likely to have either:
a) Graveyard abilities.
b) Discard abilities.
c) Abilities that involve entering or leaving the plane (like slide).
You actually dont want to put these into play unless you have to or you have a sacrifice engine...

2) Legendary doesn't solve anything much, because the point of this is putting them into your graveyard. It actually helps.

3) They are speed in the right deck. I made it any colour when leaving so that they can be used in decks of other colours as well. I can even see careful study being used for sinergy with these... no? I kind of wanted them to have a flavour like the Odissey sac lands.

4) Adding a makes mana ability I think would make them way too powerful, and would go against flavour. I feel that the people on the plane have no way of tapping into them but by their mere movement through these, they generate mana.... what a flavour geek I am

5) I like the turn 2 dump 12 mana into my graveyard play , would you really like to make it dump 20 mana into graveyard?

6) I bended the land-like feel a bit, but I think that the fact that they ARE lands is their biggest restriction because by playing them you lose your land drop for the turn and have to use the mana.

I'll edit with the corrected wording.

[Ephraim]

If a cycle of lands is so powerful that it's dangerous to give that power to all five colours, for fear that somebody would build a deck with all of them present *cough*Affinity*cough*, then the power level of the lands probably need to be checked. If they're strong enough that such a fear is reasonable, then giving them only to select colours is liable to provide those colours with an unfair boost in the block in which those lands appear. This is true of all cycles, but particularly of lands. If you provide White, Blue, and Black with a set of sweet lands and deny them to Green and Red, I guarantee you that those colours will see more play.

Also, given your arguments, this is definitely not a blue kind of idea. The logical fallacy that "blue gets tricky stuff," is what led to the current problem of blue having too many mechanics and too much power. I can accept black for the graveyard/discard effects. However, the argument based on "slide-like" effects is weak. I could just as easily argue that because these are lands and mana accelerators, that there should be a green one, or because they provide a fast, temporary boost, they should be red.

If you think they're really that strong, make them generate colourless upon coming into play and a man of any colour when removed from the graveyard. Or, use Matt's suggestion and have them generate the same colour both entering and leaving. If you think that the mana acceleration is the problem, then say that they can only be removed from the graveyard if they have n cards above them. There are lots of ways to tone these down to a power level where it's appropriate for them to be a real cycle of lands.

[Pizzatog]

You are completely right, so I've decided to cut completely on the cycle idea, and just make 1 of these. That's 4 to a deck, any colour can run them, and with broken stuff like druid or oath, you can have 4 mana of any colour dumped into your graveyard for grabs.

[Matt]

Could this be a Locus?

[Pizzatog]

Funny, I thought of that as well.
Seeing that it does not provide mana when its in play, its good to power cloudpost with... but does cloudpost really need power? I guess only if you're not making it in the same set. Actually Im thinking of making a cycle of Spirits that have some kind of syngergy with mirage type lands... something like:

Green spirit: Sacrifice a mirage, T: search your library for a basic land card and put it into play tapped.
Red spirit: Sacrifice a mirage, T: destroy target land.
Blue: Sacrifice a mirage, T: return target land to its owners hand.
Black: Sacrifice a mirage, T: target opponent reveals his hand and discards a land card.
White: Sacrifice a mirage, T: Each player chooses and sacrifices a land.

Im not sure for the white. I'll post these when I actually have a more solid idea. Decided to not make the lands a cycle. And make 5 one-drops that have synergy with the mirage lands. (Nice effect with crucible out too.... Im still working on it though)

[Ephraim]

I really like this now. As a single card, I think it's well balanced. Don't forget to change the rules text in the Current Wording (it says Drifting Isle, rather than Drifting plane). I like the idea of a cycle of spirits that interact with a land type. Whether that land type is Mirage or Locus matters not to me. On a side note, I love the creature type "Spirit." Kamigawa's going to be hot.

[Pizzatog]

Once this card is done, Ill post a cycle of spirits that goes with it... Since it produces mana of any colour, Ill make 1 of each colour for the rare slot. Since they don't do anything when theyre in play, Ill add a "If you ahve a mirage ability and a sacrifice a mirage ability, and I want them to be 1 drops since they should come into play with the land through flavour.... :

Something like:

Green Spirit:
G
Creature - Spirit
As long as you control a mirage, Green Spirit has T: add G your mana pool.
Sacrifice a mirage: add one mana of any colour to your mana pool.
1/1

Blue Spirit:
U
Creature - Spirit
As long as you control a mirage, Blue Spirit has T: Draw a card and discard a card.
Sacrifice a mirage: Draw a card.
1/1

Red Spirit:
R
Creature - Spirit
As long as you control a mirage, Red Spirit has T: Red Spirit deals 1 damage to target creature or player, and 1 damage to you.
Sacrifice a mirage: Red Spirit deals 2 damage to target creature.
1/1

White Spirit:
W
Creature - Spirit
As long as you control a mirage, White Spirit has T: Gain 1 life.
Sacrifice a mirage: Gain 5 life.
1/1

Black Spirit:
B
Creature - Spirit
As long as you control a mirage, Black Spirit has T: Target player loses 1 life.
Sacrifice a mirage: Target player loses 2 life and you gain 2 life.
1/1


Ill post these after this thread is over, and I come up with names and flavour text ideas... feel free to post your ideas about the spirit cycle that goes with Drifting Plane.

[Ephraim]

A few comments about the cycle of Spirits. None of them really strike me as being rare-worthy. The green one is weak because in many ways it's much worse even than Llanowar Elves. All of these are weak without a Mirage, which is appropriate, but the only thing that makes the green one powerful even when there is a Mirage in play is the ability to generate two or three multi-coloured mana in a turn, which is solely a function of what the only Mirage in existance does. The blue one's sacrifice ability is nice, but the ability it gains is already available on a mana cost common creature. The red one isn't too bad, since with a Mirage in play, it's like Anaba Shaman for 1. The sacrifice ability is decent, but not stellar. It'd be better if the sac ability could damage players as well. The white one is weak because life gain is weak. Have it tap to regenerate a creature and sacrifice to prevent all damage that a source would deal to you this turn and you've got something that isn't terrible. The black one is almost strictly better than the red one and there doesn't seem to be a lot of difference between the two, besides the black one being better.

The one thing about all of these that I really like is how they enable the Drifting Plane card. Utilizing the mana it generates and then (perhaps immediately) putting it in the graveyard to take advantage of its other ability is very cool. However, I think you need to make these really playable to be interesting. Note, I like the tension between the creatures' abilities. Having one ability that benefits from keeping the Mirage in play and another that benefits from sacrificing it is very cool. As noted above, I just don't like most of the abilities that you've given these. They don't seem powerful enough to make these Spirits tremendously playable, which in turn means that all these cool interactions never happen.

[Pizzatog]

They're just ideas off the top of my head... basically I thought of making them rare, because the mirage is rare, and in a draft youre only getting one per pack... you dont want 8 spirits and one mirage... maybe uncommon? The original idea, and more flavourful was flying (but thats too much text) or shadow (but that ability is OLD) and making them 0/2... but then without the mirage theyd be useless... They are a basic 1 drop for 1/1. I like your idea for the white one, Ill think about them some more. I still have a full day before I can start the 24 hour clock on the lands.

[Jacob Orlove]

I would really like to see this as a locus, but I guess if you have the other cycle in mind, that's okay. They really need to be in their own thread, though.

[Pizzatog]

Sorry for promoting other cards... bu it seems there are no more opinions on this one. Cloudpost is overpowered in block as is, Id be scared to make it worse. As soon as this thread gets closed, Ill post an independent thread with the cycle of spirits (and maybe 1 more mirage land, so there can be 8 to choose from)

[Jacob Orlove]

Block is irrelevant to the cards we make, actually. A second locus would be fine in extended, which is where these cards and mirrodin would theoretically meet.

[Pizzatog]

If more people suggest I make it a locus, Ill scrap the other mirage I had in mind, and make it a locus. Ill start the 24 hour clock tommorrow and make it a locus if more people agree.

[Laurie Cheers]

If the graveyard ability is really as strong as you say, then these are badly designed IMO. They're so weak in most decks that they're worthless, yet they're abusively strong in "mill your library" decks.

To achieve the intended result (i.e. you won't want to kill them with Wasteland), I think they should say:

When ~ is put into a graveyard from play, you may remove it from the game. If you do, add <mana> to your mana pool.

or

Remove ~ from the game: Add <mana> to your mana pool. Play this ability only if ~ is in your graveyard and only if it was put there from play.

[Pizzatog]

It seems that only you think that its badly desgined so far, so Ill start the 24 hour clock now.

[Jacob Orlove]

I don't think that intuition tricks or milling is going to break this, since you only get 4. Having 12 or 20 might have caused problems, but it seems fine as-is.

[Matt]

Closed and added.[/color]