Trying Nether Void one last time.

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I must be dissapointing people. Another Suicide Black type deck. First off I'd like to say Nether Void is a completely different deck. Different play style, different cards and different matchups. I will give a detailed analysis matchup  after I post the decklist. I feel it may be a little more competitive but not the best in this metagame. Take a look at my list.


Spells:
4x Duress
4x Dark Ritual
4x Hymn To Tourach
4x Pernicious Deed
3x Nether Void
3x Null Rod
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Will

Threats:
4x Withered Wretch
4x Nantuko Shade

Mana Base:
1x Mox Jet
1x Mox Emerald
1x Black Lotus
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Bayou
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

Sideboard:
4x Chains Of Mephistopheles
4x Oxidize
4x Smother
2x Phyrexian Negator
1x Null Rod


This deck is played completely different then Suicide Black. You early game priority is to keep mana denial tight and then drop a Nether Void as quickly as possible. This can be accomplished by dropping a second or third turn Deed and activate it then drop a Nether Void. In Suicide Black your second turn would be devoted to doing nothing with your bad Phyrexian Negator maindeck.


Interesting card choices...

4x Pernicious Deed: I've taken these over Sinkhole for the fact that Sinkhole does NOTHING! Crucible of Worlds laughs at that card. Pernicious Deed is a board sweeper and a virtual game winner vs. a wasted turn destroying target land.

4x Hymn To Tourach: I considered playing Chains mainboard instead or Sphere of Resistance. But after quite some playtesting sometimes Hymn managed to pull through with much power.

Sideboard

4x Oxidize: An advantage of running green in the deck because this provides a solution to lets say Juggernaut or other nasty critters that any Mono Black deck automatically loses too....


Matchup Analysis......

4cc
Back in the day of "Keeper" Nether Void always had an advantage over this deck. This is where Hymn To Tourach still really shines. The disruption in this deck is something that overwhelms 4cc even more then Suicide Black ever did. Nether Void is all to often a pure nightmare.

Mono Blue
A golden day to play vs. Mono blue. The only little problem this deck can give you is Back to Basics and Powder Keg. A null rod should stop the powder keg which can allow even a lonely Nantuko Shade to win. Your Chains in the board are golden and so is Smother for Mr. Ophie.

Control Slaver
This is the only deck with artifacts which is a moderately easy matchup. Control Slaver takes a moderately long time to set up. Duress and Hymn manage to be very powerful in this matchup.  The welders are easily Deeded away quickly and its much easier to seal a game.

Fish
Pernicious Deed is a GOD. This matchup is fairly difficult. But if a deed is resolved this matchup should end very very quickly. Just watchout for thos e Lavamancers!

Workshop Aggro or anything with a Workshop
Do you have the Null Rod on the board or how about that deed somehow? If not you automatically lose. The wretch can be an attempted saviour but this matchup is very rarely taken especially with Juggernauts. I have managed to pull through 7/10 but Trinisphere is unbearable.

Belcher or anyother combo
Much like Suicide Black your hand disruption is unbearable. Along with Null  Rod there isn't much combo can do if lay a first turn Null Rod.

The reason this deck declined is because of the presence of Workshops. I doubt this deck can do any good. But it's worth a try. From playtesting Suicide and this just the difference of a turn two Nether Void against lets say Fish is a jaw dropping play.

I'm really interested in some feedback. You may call me a Newb or whatnot because I'm playing a Suicide black like deck but the metagame is shifting and heres maybe an opportunity for Nether Void to shine a bit more.

[rvs]

Belcher or anyother combo
Much like Suicide Black your hand disruption is unbearable. Along with Null  Rod there isn't much combo can do if lay a first turn Null Rod.

I think you need more testing against Combo. And a few of your ideas on other matchups are a little too positive I think. How much testing did you do?

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

I played three full matches vs.Belcher and I squeezed a full match vs. Draw 7. I won two matches vs. Belcher and the one I played vs Draw 7 I also won.
The control matchups are quite accurate. This deck has its best matchup vs. Mono Blue and 4cc. You may be suprised by Control Slaver. So am I. The only thing they can do to get you is if there running Darksteel Colossus and they Tinker him out.

Control Slaver takes a much longer time to set up so they can't commence the Slaving quickly enough. They may be able to pull something off by draining a Nether Void though.

[AngryPheldagrif]

I played three full matches vs.Belcher and I squeezed a full match vs. Draw 7. I won two matches vs. Belcher and the one I played vs Draw 7 I also won.

With respect, I'm going to address your cracksmokery in several pieces. First, combo. Do you realize that the odds of you getting one of your 7 acceleration pieces in your hand with one of your 3 Null Rods is probably about as likely as they are to get a Force of Will and a blue card? Or that you often won't see another turn if they've got a decent hand? Or that 90% of combo has artifact removal in some shape or form? I don't think testing a single match against one of the most varied decks in Type 1 (Draw-7) is quite enough to draw conclusions from. Combo craps out sometimes. And you might get good hands. Or win the die roll. Etc. And you didn't even test against DeathLong or Dragon, which are worse threats in this format than Belcher and Draw-7.

The control matchups are quite accurate. This deck has its best matchup vs. Mono Blue and 4cc. You may be suprised by Control Slaver. So am I. The only thing they can do to get you is if there running Darksteel Colossus and they Tinker him out.

Control Slaver takes a much longer time to set up so they can't commence the Slaving quickly enough. They may be able to pull something off by draining a Nether Void though.

See, you've got it backwards. Oldest of oldschool Suicide Black has the best matchup against Kaeper and mono-U. Most of the stuff you added either is a wash or weakens the matchup. You've lost the Sinkholes that hurt the mana of control so much, and you've lost the rock-solid mana base that protected you from ugly things like Blood Moon, Back to Basics, and opponent's Wastes. You don't have Negator, losing you the best clock you had, and no Hippies is that much less disruption for them to worry about.

In Suicide Black your second turn would be devoted to doing nothing with your bad Phyrexian Negator maindeck.

Ok, this is where I stand up and cry BS. Second turn in suicide was the most important. That was when you Sinkholed, Hymned, dropped a Keg or a threat. Negator is bad? It was how Suicide beat up on Mono-U and Kaeper. With Duress to protect you from stray StPs, you put them on a 4 turn clock to live. What do you pack that equals the unbridled might of Swamp, Ritual, Negator?

I ain't calling you a newb because you're playing Suicide or whatever it is, I'm calling you a newb because you ain't got your facts straight.

Welcome to TMD, etc.
-Dan

[SonataOfTheCathedral]

Along to go with Null Rod there is also Duress and Hymn To Tourach. Both are very powerful and devastating to combo. In reference to combo there are main deck Withered Wretch hand in hand.


I am very open and willing to take advice in reference to you saying how I've weakend my control matchups. Do you suggest upping the Phyrexian Negators maindeck? Or should I play Sinkholes and just frown when I see a Crucible?

My turn two still focusses on playing Hymn to Tourach quite often, but it may just be me but I think the power in Sinkhole isn't really there anymore.

By no means is this a competitive deck in all reality.  But I want to experiment with it a little. If you can give me a better Void build I will listen and most likely playtest it.

[Roxas]

Along to go with Null Rod there is also Duress and Hymn To Tourach. Both are very powerful and devastating to combo. In reference to combo there are main deck Withered Wretch hand in hand.

Unless you have Dark Ritual -and- won the die roll, you will lose before being able to cast Hymn and Null Rod; and, as AngryPhel said, the chances of you having Ritual + Null Rod / Hymn are about the same odds as the opponent having Force of Will + blue card.  Duress is just about the only relevant card you have, and often combo will be able to go off anyway.

Do you suggest upping the Phyrexian Negators maindeck?

Yes.

Or should I play Sinkholes and just frown when I see a Crucible?

Even though they might get their land back via Crucible, Sinkhole and Wasteland still slow down their development.  Sinkhole can mean the difference between your Negator killing the 4cC player before they can find a solution and the 4cC player flipping over an Exalted Angel.  Overall, however, decks like Suicide and Nether Void have -no- chance - workshop is hopeless, modern control and combo 50/50 at best, and most other aggro very difficult.  I would discourage you from "experimenting" with it, but you'll probably become a better player through seeing firsthand why it's a hopeless cause.

[rvs]

I think you are making the right call on Sinkhole, and your crucible reasoning is sound.

The reason I asked about your testing is exactly what you answered: you only played a handful of games against them. Once you play 20+, you might start adding some conclusions to any results you gather. Then, there's also the point of competent opponent. A lot of combo-players are really not up to the task.

[feral]

Well I played nethervoid at Waterbury (I was the only nethervoid there), I went 5/3 and two of my losses were against god-draws (One guy had a black lotus first hand in all 3 duels ... also dropped a 1st turn darksteel colossus, the other had timewalk go off 4 turns in a row in a gro deck with the dryad on the table ... ugh).  Excuses aside my build is very different than this one as I run mono-B (which I do believe to be superior) so I don't know how relevant my experience was ... but man didn't I send a mono-U, a hulk, and a 4-CC home crying.  I seriously leveled those decks without even trying, it's like nethervoid can't lose to those decks.  I also kicked the hell out of a control-slaver (I got a pretty solid draw against him) and a sui-black.  I taught the sui-black player a lesson about why  Juzam > Negator.  I maindeck a single Juzam and I win with it all the time.

Anyhow I'm not sure I want to drop a decklist (superstition and I actually think I can win a tourney with this) ... but I do have a maindeck crucible, null rod, juzam, funeral charm, deathwish and am thinking about replacing one of the void's with a trini-sphere just for first-turn plays.  In playtesting the only deck I can't go 5-5 against w/o sideboard is still TNT ... but against control decks I honestly don't usually have much to S/B anyhow.

[shaq]

Juzam>Negator? You must be talkin about prices. As someone said above, you simply cannot beat first turn ritual+negator, not even with 1st turn ritual+mox+juzam. I'm sorry if you paid 500$ for your juzams, but you should've invested on negators.
I think legend's primer on sui-black is still a must see for those who play with juzams...

[feral]

Juzam>Negator? You must be talkin about prices. As someone said above, you simply cannot beat first turn ritual+negator, not even with 1st turn ritual+mox+juzam. I'm sorry if you paid 500$ for your juzams, but you should've invested on negators.
I think legend's primer on sui-black is still a must see for those who play with juzams...

Well considering I totally answered his negator with a whopping 2nd turn mishra's factory ... I'm going to stick to my juzam thank you.  First turn negator scares me about as much as playing against FoW ... meaning duress and hymn make it an irrelevant threat.  I only play one Juzam, and I use it as a major beatstick.  Remember this is nethervoid not sui ... it's arguable that you really don't need a beatstick in nethervoid but at this point, in this meta, the beatstick stays.  It's a solid answer to aggro pre-sideboard and gives me a shot against TNT ... not to mention a first turn juzam is game for too many decks whereas a first turn negator just isn't ... like I said my mishra's factory laughed at the negator and I walked away 2-0 in that match.

[feral]

let me put it to you this way ... what does negator do for you that juzam doesn't?  It helps you against control decks ... but the thing is you already have an awesome matchup against control decks anyhow.  Mono-B (void or sui) can annihilate control decks all day long, like I said I completely steam-rolled over every control deck I faced at waterbury.  

The decks that mono-B has issues with are aggro decks and fast-beatz decks ... combo to a certain extent as well but disruption can usually manage to overcome combo given aggressive mulligans.  Does negator help you against aggro?  Nope ... not at all in fact it hurts you.  A fire/ice or bolt or even just a weenie can not only answer your negator but destroy you.  

So negator is nothing better than win-more against control decks that you can already crush and is a win-less against the decks you need help with whereas juzam will actually help you in your tough match-ups.  You can't fire/ice a juzam away without support, and the juzam will murder your aggro creatures without a care.  

So comparing a juzam vs negator in a vaccuum sure the negator is better ... but comparing them in the context of what helps a mono-b deck most ... the juzam is better all the way.  

Oh and I didn't buy my juzam, I opened out of a pack the old-fashioned way.  I may be new here but I am not new to this game.

[shaq]

feral wrote

Oh and I didn't buy my juzam, I opened out of a pack the old-fashioned way. I may be new here but I am not new to this game.

Touché.

[AngryPheldagrif]

let me put it to you this way ... what does negator do for you that juzam doesn't?  It helps you against control decks ... but the thing is you already have an awesome matchup against control decks anyhow.  Mono-B (void or sui) can annihilate control decks all day long, like I said I completely steam-rolled over every control deck I faced at waterbury.  

The decks that mono-B has issues with are aggro decks and fast-beatz decks ... combo to a certain extent as well but disruption can usually manage to overcome combo given aggressive mulligans.  Does negator help you against aggro?  Nope ... not at all in fact it hurts you.  A fire/ice or bolt or even just a weenie can not only answer your negator but destroy you.  

So negator is nothing better than win-more against control decks that you can already crush and is a win-less against the decks you need help with whereas juzam will actually help you in your tough match-ups.  You can't fire/ice a juzam away without support, and the juzam will murder your aggro creatures without a care.  

So comparing a juzam vs negator in a vaccuum sure the negator is better ... but comparing them in the context of what helps a mono-b deck most ... the juzam is better all the way.  

Oh and I didn't buy my juzam, I opened out of a pack the old-fashioned way.  I may be new here but I am not new to this game.

Not to be overly pessimistic, but did you ever consider that perhaps your Juzams perform better than the historically powerful Negators is because you're playing an obsolete archetype? Or that beating Suicide Black isn't often something you brag about?

Beating Kaeper, Hulk, and Mono-U is what Suicide/Void/Whatever is designed to do. I'd have to see your list before I pass judgement on your Slaver match, but your 3 losses sound pretty standard to me. A first turn Colossus is something numerous decks can field (All 3 of the decks I play can) and drawing Lotus is good but by no means godly.

Realistically, the answer to the Juzam/Negator question is that neither of them is superior. Juzam is a more solid beatstick, while Negator is the best for it's purpose in Suicide. The one mana made an enormous difference in a deck designed specifically to beat control. Burning aside, both of them are StPed equally, and neither of them will do diddly when you're facing down an angry 11/11 Indestructible. If you want to discuss more, post your list.

-Dan

[feral]

So as not to hijack this thread I made my own.  Lets take this discussion there.  http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=317163#317163

[MasterIth]

Ok, i play sui black (Not as an attempt at a tier 1 deck) its just my favorite decktype, and i developed this same deck from the time when i first started and played royal assasin and icy manipulator...back on topic..I can see you using a juzzi if you have 1, but really unless you expect your opponent to drop soemthing large, a negator will accomplish basically the same thing, just more quickly. O and by the way, Sui black gets raped by control slaver(unless sui gets a very good draw) on average control slaver is just better, and more often than not pulls it out. I would just like to ask what kind of sui deck doesn't run negator or hyppie or sinkhole anymore? I am yet to find cards that are simply better than those three. Also what are peoples thoughts on the possible impact of Wicked Akuba and Cranial Extraction on sui and nether matchups versus control slaver, FCG and others.

[Tank]

Personally, I like Wicked Akuba, because it allows you, unlike the shade, to wait with committing your resources until after the combat-phase, on the other hand, not being able to pump it makes it easier to kill with something as simple as F/I, so it's a 50/50 situation...

[TimeBeing]

yeah i think cranial extraction could help some match ups. (if you last to cast it.)

Think of building this and testing it. Void always had a special place in my heart.

but have to put in a Crucible it replaces the missing sinkholes.