My Gencon LongDeath Report

[Smmenen]

I didn't include this in my Gencon report for SCG becuase Carl Winter wanted to play LongDeath for the waterbury.  He respectfully requested that I not show lists or report what happened.

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Crop Rotation
4 Dark Ritual
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Death Wish
1 Burning Wish
4 Duress
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Tinker
1 Timetwister
1 Memory Jar
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Windfall
4 Brainstorm
1 Necropotence
1 Mind's Desire
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Xantid Swarm
1 Diminishing Returns
1 Time Spiral
1 Balance
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Primitive Justice
1 Oxidize
1 Regrowth
1 Simplify
1 Hull Breach
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony

Here is my quick and dirty for my Longdeath tournament.

79 players.

Round One: Jonathan Patch with Turboland
Jonathan Patch was not thrilled to be paired up against me round one.  I couldn’t remember if that deck had Force of Will.  I played a turn one Time Walk, Duressed and saw nothing of importance and then somehow comboed out before he got a turn.  

Game Two he played Mishra’s Workshop Null Rod, and I had turn two Burning Wish for Primitive Justice, turn three Primitive Justice.  I Brainstormed and played Mox Jet, Mox Diamond, and Necropotence.  On turn two he played more Explorations but passed the turn.  For that reason I decided to aggressively Necropotence to 4.  He had a Barbarian Ring in play but no red mana source to activate it.  In retrospect that was too much.  He dropped played Undiscovered Paradise.  Found Crucible of Worlds and sacrificed the Paradise to Zuran Orb to be able to replay it and killed me with his replayed Barbarian Ring.  

Game Three –
I mulliganed twice into:
Land, Chrome Mox, Mox Sapphire, Wheel of Fortune, Timetwister.  I debated which to play and went for Timetwister imprinting Wheel on the Chrome Mox.  I drew into Time Walk and played it somehow.  I Walked and dropped Necropotence.  I drew 12 cards and passed the turn.  Jon dropped turn one Null Rod.  But I drew into Hurkyl’s Recall to bounce his Null Rod, dropped Tolarian Academy and Mind’s Desired for 5 and won.

Round Two: Food Chain Goblins

Game One:
Mana Crypt, Glimmervoid, Mox Sapphire, Mox Ruby, Wheel of Fortune and I Wheeled and simply played Mana Vault and passed the turn for an easy turn two win.   I saw Food Chain do something I’ve never seen it do before: Taiga, Sol Ring, Black Lotus, Seige-Gang Commander.  Then he passed the turn.  

I win.

Game Two:
He actually got two turns because I was slow-playing.  But what he did was hilarious.

He played first turn Goblin Lackey.  On turn two he attacked with Lackey and then put Siege-Gang Commander into play and played a second Lackey.  On turn three he attacked with SGC and both Lackey’s sending me to 13 and he put two more Lackey’s into play – which was hilarious.  

Round Three: Shane Stoots (Triple S) playing Vengeur Masque
Shane is playing an updated version of the deck he piloted to the finals of the Gencon Champs last year.  I think Shane won the dice roll and started the game with Forest and Mox.  I turn one Duressed him and saw no more mana of any sort.  I was confident that he would have to topdeck to remain in the game.  The two cards I was eyeing were Brainstorm and Time Walk.  I felt that overall, Time Walk was the more dangerous card, although that might not have been correct.  If he topdecked a blue mana source, Brainstorm would be more likely to feed him into Force of Will.  However, Time Walk would enable him to do more broken things.  I took Time Walk.   He drew Polluted Delta and used it.  He Brainstormed and then played Survival of the Fittest.  I untapped and played Memory Jar.  I had a mana up but decided to wait one turn before going off so that I’d have full mana up.  The only risk is if Shane had Uktabi Oraungatang in his deck, and I had a feeling that he did not.  He untapped and did something I can’t remember.  I untapped and won.

Game Two:
Shane went first and played Land, Bird of Paradise.  I Duressed and saw Force of Will and two Brainstorms.  I took the Force of Will leaving him with four cards in hand.  He untapped and played both Brainstorms but he had nothing good apparently and I think I played Bargain next turn for the win.  

Round Four: David Allen with Stacker
David Allen also was a top 8 player at the Vintage Champs last year.

Game One:
I am playing first.  I have no land and drop Chrome Mox imprinting a Duress and play Duress taking Trinisphere.  He plays a Shivan Reef and a mox and passes the turn.  On my upkeep he plays Ice on my Chrome Mox, which I respond by floating a mana.  I draw a card and use the one black to play Demonic Consulation naming City of Brass.  

Unfortunately I removed at least 40 cards including all 4 Gemstone Mines and nearly all my artifact acceleration except two Moxen and two Dark Rituals.  I hit City of Brass and Brainstorm into two more Cities.  He takes his turn and does nothing of consequence.  I Dark Ritual Death Wish for Timetwister (which was removed from game due to Demonic Consultation) and play it.  I draw into no Dark Rituals but do have Tolarian Academy and Mana Crypt as well as some other mana source in play.  Keep in mind that my library is quite thin at this point.  He plays Su-Chi on his turn and passes.  I untap and play Academy and I think Mox Pearl (one of two Moxen still in my deck).  I mistakenly tap the Academy before playing the Mana Crypt because of the fear that Mana Crypt could kill me since I was at 8 and he had Su-Chi in play.  As a result, I only generate UU mana and I brainstorm into Mind’s Desire Sol Ring and Mox Diamond but no more lands.  I can only get to U4 and am unable to play a Desire for 5 or so to win me the game.  Instead I play Brainstorm again and see a land finally.  I play Mox Diamond and Wheel of Fortune.  At this point I know I have two Rituals left in my library and a Tendrils.  I draw 7 cards and now have 8 left in my library.  I don’t see a Ritual but I do draw Demonic Consulation and Tendrils.  I realize this is my last chance to go off.   I play a land and Consult for Dark Ritual.  If one of my two Rituals is the last card in my library I win the game.  In response to Demonic Consultation he plays Ancestral Recall targeting me.  I draw three cards and then deck myself.  Dark Ritual happened to be my last card.  

Game Two:

I look at my first hand and frowned as it had no usable mana.  This was my second mulligan of the tournament.  I went to six and my game plan was turn two Tinker.  I dropped a land, played Brainstorm, and drop Mox Emerald.  My hand had more lands, Tinker, and Elvish Spirit guide as well as Death Wish so that even if he played Trinisphere on turn one, my Tinker would resolve.  

Unfortunately, David played the exact opposite of what I expected – much like he did the next day.  He played Mox, land, Gorilla Shaman, eat my Mox.  There went my entire plan.  I played Draw-Go for a while as I played a lot of land.  Eventually came down Trinisphere and Welder.  I had to Wish for Primitive Justice - a mistake.  I should have Wished for Hurkyl’s so that he couldn’t weld it back in.  This was my third obvious mistake of the match.  He welded it back in as soon as I murdered it and I was done.  

Round Five: Dan (I think) from Ireland with Affinity

Aaron Forsythe came over and watched this match.  On turn one I played Chrome Mox imprinting Death Wish, Black Lotus, Lion’s Eye Diamond.  Sacrifice the Lotus for Blue.  Ancestral Recall.  Then Brainstorm, putting Mind’s Desire ontop of my library.  I played Dark Ritual and Brainstorm again, but sacrificing Lion’s Eye Diamond for UUU in response drawing into the Desire.  If you followed that, it was Mind’s Desire for 8 on turn one.  Suffice to say, I didn’t get to see what my opponent was playing that game.

Game Two:
Dan played Seat of Synod, go.

I Duressed him and took something of no consequence.  

On turn two he played Ravager and Tormod’s Crypt (which he mistakenly ate with Ravager next turn).

I set myself up for the win next turn.

He attacked me for 8 life or so.  I untapped and won.

Round Six:
Matt Smith (meandeck affiliated) with The Perfect Storm.

Before this round Matt and I are placed 3rd and 4th.  We draw just to ensure that we will both make product.  I am confident that I would win this match since my deck is sooo much faster.  But unless David Allen loses, neither of us can get first place.  David Allen won and our dropped dropped use to 5th and 6th.  I now had renewed confidence in Long Death.  

After the tournament, Matt Smith and I discuss what to play tomorrow.  Matt Smith is a meandeck affiliated player but he doesn’t play T1 as much anymore so he sort of has bowed out a bit. I told him I was playing mono blue and he said he would have so much respect for me if I did, but that it was terrible.  I explained my rationale for the deck and it took little persuading.  I told him to throw together a list around the mana base I gave him, which he did.  His list was close enough to mine.  Now three of us would have mono blue.  

That night meandeck finds a spot to quietly test.  Carl Winter is intent on playing 3 color Tog with 3 maindeck Back to Basics.  Joe knows he’s playing mono blue – although when I first suggested it a few weeks earlier he thought I was joking.  Kevin is playing Crucible Stax and is trying to tweak his sideboard.  I play Fish against Carl and Fish has the upper hand so Carl wavers.  I briefly convince him to play LongDeath which he does very well with, but I am uncertain and don’t want to be responsible for him scrubbing out if he does poorly so at Kevin’s admonition he switches back, unfortunately for him.  I am set to play mono blue, but my testing against Carl makes me realize that people might think as we do and bring decks immune to Crucible and so I may want to have something to bring in if I sideboard out Back to Basics – so I fit a single Counterspell in my sideboard for the 4th Control Magic.  I cut the Prohibit for the same and my deck is finished.  I resleeve after more testing and we go to sleep.

[CrazyCarl]

Thanks for holding back on it.

Aaron Forsythe came over and watched this match.

I hope you refrained from casting any Dark Rituals or Death Wishes

[Smmenen]

I imprinted the Death Wish on the chrome mox and Aaron said "you aren't going to make us restrict Death Wish, are you?"

[carlossb]

Congrats on your fantastic finish, and dominance with *your* now trademark deck.
 
I have a question regarding your list differences with your team-mate, CrazyCarl, who also owned a tournament (Waterbury) recently:

Carl´s:

+1 Hurkyl´s Recall
+4 Force of Will
+1 Colossus (Sideboard)

-1 Tendril´s of Agony
-1 Tinker
-1 Timetwister
-1 Memory Jar
-1 Wheel of Fortune

I was wondering if it´s a evolution of the deck, cutting almost every draw-7 (with the exception of Windfall, because it can pitch to FOW and discards to a greater Will) and playing only with Brainstorm, in order to have more chances against your opponent first turn broken plays.

Carlos

EDIT: Well, it could be only a slip by iamfishman with the lists....

[Samcat]

Carl´s:

+1 Hurkyl´s Recall
+4 Force of Will
+1 Colossus (Sideboard)

-1 Tendril´s of Agony
-1 Tinker
-1 Timetwister
-1 Memory Jar
-1 Wheel of Fortune

I was wondering if it´s a evolution of the deck, cutting almost every draw-7 (with the exception of Windfall, because it can pitch to FOW and discards to a greater Will) and playing only with Brainstorm, in order to have more chances against your opponent first turn broken plays.

Umm, from the finals report by Meddling Mage, Carl casted Twister, had Wheel countered by FoW, brainstormed into Tendril's and then boarded out the Tinker.  All in game one.  And then Tinkered the Jar in game two.  It seems they were playing the exact same deck.

In fact, the only card I did not see was the Windfall.  Was this card in there, or was it replaced by something else, maybe the 2nd Recall?

[DB]

4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
1 Glimmervoid
1 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

I have a thought about the mana base.  Would it be beneficial to have the Underground Sea be a Tarnished Citadel?

Being as though you probably don't care about a measily 3 damage (wining in such short few turns), this would ensure that all of your land drops give you access to any needed color.  I am not sure if there ever has been a goldfishing or match that involved a lament that the Underground sea didn't produce say Red...  but perhaps there could be  and changing it reduces that occurance.

Any thoughts on this?

[Necrologia]

I'm not a fan of Tarnished Citadel. There are many games where I end up so low on life due to Death wish, Necro, etc, that I can't even use CoB anymore. I'd imagine taking 3 damage from a land would come up enough to make me loath the card everytime I draw it.

If you're looking for a replacement, the new 5 color land from CoK might work. Tap for a mana of any color, the opponent puts a 1/1 spirit into play. Unless you stall out it's pretty much on par with City of Brass for self inflicted damage.

[DB]

If you're looking for a replacement, the new 5 color land from CoK might work. Tap for a mana of any color, the opponent puts a 1/1 spirit into play. Unless you stall out it's pretty much on par with City of Brass for self inflicted damage.

This deck is the first thing I thought of when I saw that land.

[Samcat]

Are all the draw7s really worth it?

you have:
Timetwister
Wheel
Memory Jar
Windfall
and SB:
Diminishing Returns
Time Spiral

Seems that since the deck is Blue/Black already, why not try Lim-Dul's Vault in place of the windfall.  I've goldfished a few games and it seems to run a little smoother than the Windfall.  The times the I drew it, the game was over that turn or the next.  I have found that the consistency goes up a little when using those top 5, especially when you can "optimize" an Ancestral, or set up other draw7s better.  Four just seems too many, especially when they all cost 3 mana (Tinker for Jar).  On top of that,  the drawback of Windfall that the number of cards drawn depends on your opponents hand size reduces their effectiveness at times. (Their hand is not always seven.)

[Green Knight]

Are all the draw7s really worth it?
Seems that since the deck is Blue/Black already, why not try Lim-Dul's Vault in place of the windfall....  Four just seems too many, especially when they all cost 3 mana (Tinker for Jar).  On top of that,  the drawback of Windfall that the number of cards drawn depends on your opponents hand size reduces their effectiveness at times. (Their hand is not always seven.)

Windfall is far superior on so many levels. When you are casting say another draw seven into the windfall and the opponent then has 7 cards in hand...you get the idea. Basically this deck wants to cast a ton of sh!t and drawing quantity is superior to quality (think storm count).

[Smmenen]

Congrats on your fantastic finish, and dominance with *your* now trademark deck.
 
I have a question regarding your list differences with your team-mate, CrazyCarl, who also owned a tournament (Waterbury) recently:

Carl´s:

+1 Hurkyl´s Recall
+4 Force of Will
+1 Colossus (Sideboard)

-1 Tendril´s of Agony
-1 Tinker
-1 Timetwister
-1 Memory Jar
-1 Wheel of Fortune

I was wondering if it´s a evolution of the deck, cutting almost every draw-7 (with the exception of Windfall, because it can pitch to FOW and discards to a greater Will) and playing only with Brainstorm, in order to have more chances against your opponent first turn broken plays.

Carlos

EDIT: Well, it could be only a slip by iamfishman with the lists....

Carlosb.  

Carl didn't run FOW he ran my deck - 1 Crop Rotation for Hurkyl's.

It was something I had suggested on the phone to him as I had rebuild in that slot, so you are not correct.

[Smmenen]

To answer the other questions, I think the new land is an AUTOMATIC inclusion.

Tenatively I suggest

- 1 Glimmervoid
- 1 Gemstone Mine
- 1 City of Brass
- 1 Underground Sea

Then I would move one City of Brass into the sideboard (along with Orim's Thunder) for the Simplify and one other slot.

[Godot]

Im not sure I understand why the new 5c land is an automatic inclusion.  In the matchups that matter(Control & workshop) I think the new land can hurt you much more than it really helps.

Against control/workshop the game typically doesnt end in the first couple turns(granted, im still learning the deck), but even the finals at Waterbury went over 10 turns in 2 of hte games.  Giving your opponent a clock, small though it may be, early in the game can severely hinder your options in the mid and lategame by limiting your ability to utilize Necro/Bargain or the Wishes.  Think how different the waterbury finals would have been if Carl had been forced to give Rich at 1/1 on the first or 2nd turn.  Carl would have had less time find threats/attempt to win and the match wouldnt have been as close.  CoB is a guaranteed to be only 1 damage per use, while this land can be much more brutal.  Unless you end the game w/in 2 turns of first utilizing the land it would seem that its drawback can hurt your gameplan more than the other 5c lands.


In short, in the decks harder matchups which will more often than not last past your 3rd or 4th turn, I think giving the opponent a clock will hurt you more than the drawbacks from any the other lands.  While Im not saying the land doesnt have a place in this deck, I dont think thats its a 4-of.

[Smmenen]

You might be right - but that is how I'm going to start my testing.

[theorigamist]

I think the new land is most directly comparable to City of Brass, for obvious reasons.  So, let's look at the differences with the new card:

PROS:
-Damage waits a turn
-Damage may not hit at all (almost any topdeck might be game, so one extra turn is all it really takes)

CONS:
-Damage is cumulative.  The longer the game goes on, the more consequences each activation has.
-Probably replaces Gemstone Mines or Glimmevoids (so you have more lands that stick around), meaning it adds to damage from City of Brass, rather than replaces it.


Aside from just being a 5c land, what matchups does this new land help?  It seems to me that, although we'll have to wait for Smmenen's testing, 5c lands may have reached a critical mass.  Any more have to be strictly better than an existing one, rather than simply comparable.

[BreathWeapon]

Another possible consideration no one seems to have put forth is running more 5c Lands in DeathLong.

There never really has been any justification for why 11 Lands is the appropriate number in DeathLong or Draw 7. 4xCity of Brass , 4xGemstone Mine and 1xTolarian Academy were automatic inclusions because they were the most optimal choices for 5c Combo. After that, we were forced to add Sub-Optimal Lands in with Underground Sea and Glimmervoid.

Wouldn't dropping the 2xESG , 2xGlimmervoid for 4xForbidden Orchard be worth considering? 13 "Good" Lands is something this deck has never had before.

We could even use an Oath SB

[Smmenen]

I have spent alot of time wondering why the 11 land configuration has worked so well.  Remember, the 11 land configuration was based upon performance testing - and it proved better than any other configuration for old Long.  This has held true.  

You would think that if you wanted to maximize your chances of seeing just one land and no more, you would run 7-9 lands.  If you wanted to see two, you would run 14-16.  11 doesn't seem to fit that bill very well.  I think the explanation is that you want a second land drop, but you want you second land to be in Brainstorm range.  You definately want one land, but you want a second land in case they have Wasteland.   But you also don't want two in hand necessarily.  You just want to have a second accessible to you.  Toward that end, 11 may be optimal.

I tested an Oath SB and it was dysfunctional in many ways in addition to eating up too much SB space.

[BreathWeapon]

It is ponderous, I will admit. However, I've really liked the increased frequency of 1 and 2 Lands, 2 via Brainstorm, after my First Mulligan with a 13 Land Count.

I'm not sure your looking at Oath the same way I'm looking at Oath.

You don't actually have to use an Oath Conversion board, if you've been trying to move in 4xOaths for Game 2.

If you MD the Colossus, you can Death Wish for the Oath and put Colossus into play next turn. By devoting 1 Spot in your SB to Oath, Death Wish effectively becomes Tinker 2-5 vs Null Rod Aggro.  Now that you can actually force this situation to occur with Forbidden Orchard vs other decks, it seems more than worth the 1xSB Slot.

The problem is Death Wish turns Wishing for Oath a race against time. It  "comfortably" works vs Fish because of the size of their clocks, and surprises Control players that dropped a Gorilla Shaman etc. It turns Death Wish into a self sufficient threat, and that is very appealing.

Edit: A few more questions,

The Time Spiral in the SB is to actually side in, not Wish for right? I have never found myself in a situation where Wishing for Time Spiral was ever better than Wishing for Yawgmoth's Will

What is your experience with Time Walk and Mox Diamond? I've absolutely hated these cards in Storm Combo.

Time Walk has only ever been useful when I Draw it First Turn and have a 2nd Land in Hand or have a Brainstorm to get a 2nd Land. It only ever seems to serve as an extremely inflexible Mana Accelerant.

Mox Diamond is a 1 Time Fastbond for DeathLong and little else. I've never wanted to sacrifice my 2nd Land for Mox Diamond, and the card Top Decks like ass. It can't add to Storm by itself, and it has terrible synergy with Hurkyl's.

In what Environments would you MD Swarms? I've been incredibly dissapointed with Duress, because it encourages the same problems D7 has with its disruption when going off. Every D7 risks the opponent drawing into a FoW or a Mana Drain, and having to Duress to clear his hand of "potential" costs you one B. I understand that Duress->Trinisphere is an important play, but you can't count on going 1st on Game 1 to stop 3sphere. Wouldn't it be better to MD the Swarms and have them for 3 games vs Control and open up SB Space for more Hurkyl's?

What is your experience with MD Time Spiral and Frantic Search? I know these cards have a poor reputation, but after playing with them in my U/b TPS/DeathLong I've come to respect their synergy with Academy.

At any rate, here is the current build I'm testing:

"The Core"

1xYawgmoth's Bargain
1xNecropotence

4xDeath Wish
1xBurning Wish

1xMemory Jar
1xTinker
1xTimetwister
1xWheel of Fortune
1xWindfall

4xBrainstorm
1xAncestral Recall

1xDemonic Tutor
1xDemonic Consultation
1xVampiric Tutor
1xMystical Tutor

1xMind's Desire
1xTendrils of Agony

"Preferences"

4xXantid Swarm

1xTime Spiral
1xFrantic Search

1xDarksteel Colossus

Manabase
12x5c Lands (Either 3 Brass/Orchard/Mine/Void or No Voids)
1xTolarian Academy
4xDark Ritual
1xCrop Rotation
9xxSoLoMoxen (Includeds Petal and Chrome)
1xMana Vault
1xMana Crypt
1xLions Eye Diamond

Sideboard
1xDiminishing Returns
1xBalance
1xYawgmoth's Will
1xTendrils of Agony
4xHurkyl's Recall
7x"Stuff"

"Stuff" Tends to be assorted Artifact/Echantment Removal at varying CCs and Colors. I really have more space than I know what to do with..

[Necrologia]

Wishing for and playing Oath is 2BBG plus half your life, and it requires you to pass the turn. Wouldn't it be as easy and safer to just get Will and win, rather than losing 10 life and passing the turn?

11/11s are a serious clock against aggro, but it's seems rather risky to pass the turn when your life total is going to be in the single digits. Swinging for 11 is good, but not if they can just swing for lethal over your now tapped Giant.

Against control it's another threat they have to counter, but to effectively sneak it in under the counter wall you need to side 3-4 in, which does kill your SB. If you actually have the luxury of wishing for Oath over Will, Balance or even Xantid the game's already over anyway. It'll get some random wins on the Oath + mox + Orchard draw, but there are lots of oops I wins in this deck already that don't require you to ream the SB.

Against shop decks they just weld him out. Simple as that.

It's a clever idea, but I'm just not seeing where the Oath for DS is practical.

[BreathWeapon]

You can't always Wish for Will and Win, that's why Balance and Diminishing Returns are in the board. Having yet another Option at your disposal will present itself with its own opportunities.

I only Wish for Oath with confidence vs Fish, which can't race me.

I'm not saying that Oath is "The Tech," but it is "There."

It's hysterical if nothing else, just watch your opponents expressions when you play Oath. Better yet, Tinker for Colossus and save that Death Wish for Berserk. So good

[Necrologia]

Better yet, Tinker for Colossus and save that Death Wish for Berserk. So good.

If you ever pull that off write a tourney report. I'll print it out, laminate it and put it on my wall.

On a more serious note, I'm not liking frantic search in this deck. Even with more land, to use the thing properly you need academy asap, and I cut crop roation for a Hurkyl's Recall sometime ago. My thinking at the time was that both are only really good when you have a bunch of artifacts out, but the recall gives you an extra out against so much hate. When I read that Crazy Carl had done the exact same thing at Waterbury I knew that at least I wasn't going crazy.

It seems to me that your deck is more tuned for slowplaying, with the extra land, and MD Swarms over Duress. It could just be play style, but I've found that it's often better to go for all out speed with the ESGs and such, rather than risk stalling out with more expensive components and more slow mana in the form of lands.

[Snoop]

A few noteworthy points ... the Time Spiral in the SB is not just to side in for matchups (except maybe some super crap pile that you don't need the maindeck hurkyl's/rebuild/chain against). It's one of the three combo outlets that Death Wish provides, the other two being Diminishing Returns and obviously Yawgmoth's Will. The reason? Unlike popular belief sometimes Yawg Will doesn't just win you the game.  I mean this isn't Long and you don't have the near infinite mana that 4x Lions Eye Diamonds provided. Hence the two Draw 7's in the side. Return is awesome, but if you have the mana Spiral is always better. It almost always guarantees a combo-out victory. Twice at GenCon Worlds I wished for Time Spiral, both times winning the same turn.  It is a solid Wish choice and although the SB's mentioned are strong there are a few better choices IMHO. I definitely think Damping Matrix belongs in the SB as a wish against Slavery. The beauty of Death Wish is they never know what you got and you can get anything so take advantage.

As far as the whole Oath thing, it sux. Seriously it's like the greatest idea on paper, but in practice you open yourself up to so much stupidity you'll wish you just stuck MisD's (or Unmask, my personal favorite) in the SB instead. Darksteel Colossus as a win condition off Tinker is actually very TPS-esque in nature, as they have ways of protecting him while he handles business. After all nothing sucks more than your opponent Welding out your Colossus after you expended your resources to get him out ... especially when you could have just gotten Memory Jar, as LongDeath indefinitely wins off the first Draw7 (or Death Wish) you cast; unlike TPS which sets up and goes off.

As far as my opinion, LongDeath is not broken, but amazing when you know what you're doing ... and when you use an abacus to keep track of your mana (sorry Smmenen).

[BreathWeapon]

@Necrologia,

As far as -2 ESG +2 Land, I've been more than happy with this decision. I haven't noticed any significant loss in speed, and my ability to resist Strip Effects and Slow Play vs Control has much improved. I also Mulligan less, both to 6 Cards and to 5.

Amusingly tho', I think removing Crop Rotation does more to reduce your speed than an Elvish Spirit Guide for an additional 5c Land. Rotation has been better to me than any ESG ever has.

I think you'll have to chalk this up to preference tho', I've always preferred to slow play Long.

@ Snoop

I completely agree with your opinion of Darksteel Colossus in a broader metagame. My Meta never shifted away from 4cc and Fish, so I use it instead of Hurkyl's MD (Trinisphere Free=Combo So Good).

Could you go into Detail exactly in what situations you grabbed Time Spiral instead of Yawgmoth's Will with 4UU in your pool? The only situations I've done this in all involved Tormod's Crypt preventing Yawgmoth's Will from doing its thing.

I want the ones that don't involve Academy, if you would.

[Snoop]

Basically the thing to remember is Dimishing Returns and Time Spiral are for the same situation, when a Yawg Will doesn't equal game. 85% of the time I feel I usually wish for Will, with the other 15% being for Artifact Removal or a Draw7. Out of the two time I wished for it I know one was when I had Academy which was of course ridiculous. The other was when I had just Duress, Death Wish, Lotus Petal, and Dark Ritual in hand, not anything in the grave to really make somethign happen (i think there was a Jar in there), and three lands and an untapped Mana Vault in play.  So basically as you can figure out, Time Spiral ended up costing me 3 colorless Mana, but more importantly having three mana of any color available after a Draw7 is almost indefinitely game. Don't get me wrong it's situational, and why get Spiral if you could win otherwise. But I've been very impressed with it so far  with it usually costing me 2-3 colorless at most. I know in at least a couple games I SB'd it in ... Not really impressive matchups but I took out Windfall against Dragon and Burn for the Spiral since it seems dumb to rely on their hand size to go off.

Also, although I'm sure you've already figured it out, Darksteel Colossus is the BIGGEST foil to Dragon ever. Basically if you have Death Wish or Burning Wish in your hand you win. They deck you, you draw colossus, cast wish for will for your entire library. I mean does it get better than that? I mean theoretically you should beat Dragon anyway but they can slow you down if they are playing Chalice or Null Rod. I still think the best was when I decked that Dragon guy at Waterbury. He went off, I'm playing TPS. He Duressed me, taking Chain (obviously), went off (in the process discarding his deck down to 7 cards) and decked me, but then frowned as I revealed Colossus and put him back in the library. Next turn I went Land, Necropotence, with a Black Lotus and two off the wall moxes left open for the last card in my hand, Force of Will. I didn't have to use it, but he did get decked and it was hilarious.

Anyway I hope I've shed some light on the topic I wish I had time to write a report because I feel like I have alot of exciting matchups and ridiculous wins ... but maybe later when I have time

[Dante]

Also, although I'm sure you've already figured it out, Darksteel Colossus is the BIGGEST foil to Dragon ever. Basically if you have Death Wish or Burning Wish in your hand you win. They deck you, you draw colossus, cast wish for will for your entire library. I mean does it get better than that?

Except this plan requires:

1. 6 mana available during your turn including 3 black mana (for Death Wish, Yag Will).  Or 5 mana for burning wish.  Don't forget the Dragon player probably sided in chalice and null rod.

2. If they have a chalice out, it will be reset for zero, so you won't be able to play any useful artifacts from your graveyard unless you pay MORE mana for them.  So avoiding that, you can necro/bargain with zero cards in your library.

But any smart Dragon player now has the following options to win:

1. Ancestral you
2. hardcast Squee (via ruby or lotus) or Dragon (via lotus) or Ambassador and beat
3. Necromancy/Dance of the Dead Squee or Ambassador and beat.

I'm not saying that the colossus doesn't make it difficult for the dragon player to win, but unless the Ambassador is in the last couple of cards in their library, they'll probably be able to get around it.  Also, most Deathlong builds don't have FoW, so you can't prevent them from doing any of the above steps (or at least only once).

The whole key to the matchup is that the Dragon player needs to understand that game 2 and 3, they are the control deck and Deathlong is the "beatdown" deck (beatdown in the sense of playing its own gameplan and making Dragon adjust to it).  So the Dragon player, unless they have a turn 2 kill or faster, needs to mulligan for a "control" hand (chalice/null rod, fow, etc).  Hopefully the Dragon player has prepared a good sideboard for faster storm-based combo decks and has the "control" option.  If not, it's probably going to be x-2 loss for Dragon.

Bill

[Snoop]

First of all the 6 mana shouldn't be too hard if you played smartly, I mean Dragon is not a Turn 1-2 combo deck. It's a Turn 3-4 Combo deck. It is usually a safe assumption that the Dragon player has no hand  after comboing (to find Laquatus), so he's not going to FoW anything on your turn. I mean it shouldn't be very hard at all to find the 6 mana unless they pull a rare turn 1 win; but even still a timetwister can put you back in the game in no time.

Secondly I didn't mean to state it as if your game plan was to let Dragon go off and the TECH them out. I merely was stating another obstacle you force Dragon players to overcome, as well as also dealing with the inherent speed of this deck. Besides I don't really know Dragon to drop Chalice for Zero against Long ... the correct play is almost always to drop Chalice for One and win in like 2 turns before Long recouperates.

[Necrologia]

Besides I don't really know Dragon to drop Chalice for Zero against Long ... the correct play is almost always to drop Chalice for One and win in like 2 turns before Long recouperates.

It doesn't matter what they set it to, when dragon does the whole RFG thing everything goes to it's default comes-into-play-state. Gemstone Mine gets 3 counters, stuff is untaped, and Cotv is set at 0.

[Dante]

Besides I don't really know Dragon to drop Chalice for Zero against Long ... the correct play is almost always to drop Chalice for One and win in like 2 turns before Long recouperates.

It doesn't matter what they set it to, when dragon does the whole RFG thing everything goes to it's default comes-into-play-state. Gemstone Mine gets 3 counters, stuff is untaped, and Cotv is set at 0.

Exactly, once the loop goes through, the counters are reset at 0.  So you wouldn't be able to play any 0 cc from the graveyard...

[hugo_NM]

What do you guys think about running Dream Halls maindeck (CR cut), replacing the duress's by Xantid's?

And replacing Time Spiral by Colossus?

[Komatteru]

What do you guys think about running Dream Halls maindeck (CR cut), replacing the duress's by Xantid's?

And replacing Time Spiral by Colossus?

Terrible.

Dream Halls is not a good card.  It was the basis in a deck that was ridiculous, and that's it.  It's restricted because no one wants to see that deck come back, ever.  It's not restricted because it is too powerful and shouldn't ever be played in serious Magic.

Xantid doesn't deal with Null Rod, Trinisphere, or Chalice.  Those cards wreck DeathLong a lot more than Force of Will and Mana Drain.  You can play through those without too much difficulty.

And with that, this thread is swaying off topic.  I agologize, but I had to chime in on this one.