My Gencon LongDeath Report

[hugo_NM]

Dream Halls is not a good card.  It was the basis in a deck that was ridiculous, and that's it.  It's restricted because no one wants to see that deck come back, ever.  It's not restricted because it is too powerful and shouldn't ever be played in serious Magic.

Xantid doesn't deal with Null Rod, Trinisphere, or Chalice.  Those cards wreck DeathLong a lot more than Force of Will and Mana Drain.  You can play through those without too much difficulty.

And with that, this thread is swaying off topic.  I agologize, but I had to chime in on this one.

What are you saying? "Dream Halls sucks because the deck was only good with 4 pieces, so we dont even try"?

Xantid isnt any good with artifacts, but perhaps I should tell you my meta: Aggro (so a bye) and CONTROL! there is only one player with workshops here (Castricum) and that is my Dad.
Xantid IS very good against control. So why not maindeck then?

Greetz,

Hugo

[Rainula]

I have a few playtesting questions:
When do you decide to play conservative and do the untap thing (eot) in order to increase the potential certainty of going off?
What kind of oppening hand is good enough (keepable) vs a deck with 4 force and 4 manadrain?
What do you sideboard out for the xantids and does that change with different machups, more importantly, why?

I also have some maindeck choice questions:
Is there a way to put xantids in the main without taking to much from the power of this deck and would this be a good change?  

 Oddly enough, I think that this question is best answered by how prepared your enviroment is to welders than anything else.  That being if welders are running rampent, then the natural answer is anti-welder cards, which also kill xandtid.

With the recent successes this deck has had and it's vault into the mainstream articles, would a secondary win condition like colossus be benificial because of the possible increase in stifles present.

By the way, great report and thanks to anyone that answers.
edited once thus far for spelling stupidity.

[hugo_NM]

I have a few playtesting questions:
When do you decide to play conservative and do the untap thing (eot) in order to increase the potential certainty of going off?
What kind of oppening hand is good enough (keepable) vs a deck with 4 force and 4 manadrain?
What do you sideboard out for the xantids and does that change with different machups, more importantly, why?

I was testing with duress, but a Tinker, vampiric and other stuff can also help.

I also have some maindeck choice questions:
Is there a way to put xantids in the main without taking to much from the power of this deck and would this be a good change?  

Also Im testing with a duress-switch.

Oddly enough, I think that this question is best answered by how prepared your enviroment is to welders than anything else. That being if welders are running rampent, then the natural answer is anti-welder cards, which also kill xantid.

Most of the time you kill before a welder even sees the board. But a balance can get rid of those nasty Red dudes. Play lava dart or something

With the recent successes this deck has had and it's vault into the mainstream articles, would a secondary win condition like colossus be benificial because of the possible increase in stifles present.

This is why you play duress.

By the way, great report and thanks to anyone that answers.
edited once thus far for spelling stupidity.

Forgot that one, thanks indeed

[theorigamist]

Oddly enough, I think that this question is best answered by how prepared your enviroment is to welders than anything else. That being if welders are running rampent, then the natural answer is anti-welder cards, which also kill xantid.

Most of the time you kill before a welder even sees the board. But a balance can get rid of those nasty Red dudes. Play lava dart or something

Actually, I interpreted Rainula's comment to mean, "watch out for splash damage from burn that has risen in decks as a result of fear of Welders."  Correct me if I'm wrong.  In other words, if people start running Lava Darts or more Fires to deal with Welders, that same burn will take out your Xantids, so it's a metagame call as to how effective it would be to maindeck Swarms.

[BreathWeapon]

MD Swarms are also a question of Player Skill, a lot of players will use them as a crutch to Over Power Control. I much prefer to Slow Play Long, which is one of the reasons I Dropped 2xESG for 2x5cc Land and use Swarm MD. Also, Swarm makes going off SO MUCH easier when your forced to rely on D7's. Duress sucks the life out of your B Mana to clear FoWs from your opponent's Fresh Hand, and I think it puts additional strain on your "Color Management" Skillz.

I also think it depends on more than just Workshops. I've played MD Swarms vs 4xTrinisphere Shop Decks and still manage favorable results. I've only gone back to Duress when Chalice of the Void shows up MD.

That said, this deck's most difficult task is dealing with Mono-U. I just can't find a way around it's god damn wall of counter spells. So, I think TPS is the way to go (As Much as I H8 saying it).

[Anusien]

To answer the other questions, I think the new land is an AUTOMATIC inclusion.

Tenatively I suggest

- 1 Glimmervoid
- 1 Gemstone Mine
- 1 City of Brass
- 1 Underground Sea

Then I would move one City of Brass into the sideboard (along with Orim's Thunder) for the Simplify and one other slot.

The decklist posted on SCG "The Case for MeanDeath" doesn't run the lands, so can you tell use the result of your testing?  Also, I'm not sure about City in the sideboard as well as Orim's Thunder.  Not sure when you'd need the City, and Simplify/Disenchant are better choices I think.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Dream Halls is not a good card.  It was the basis in a deck that was ridiculous, and that's it.  It's restricted because no one wants to see that deck come back, ever.  It's not restricted because it is too powerful and shouldn't ever be played in serious Magic.
.

What are you saying? "Dream Halls sucks because the deck was only good with 4 pieces, so we dont even try"?
Hugo

He's saying that DREAM HALLS SUCKS EVEN IF IT WAS UNRESTRICTED IT WOULD STILL SUCK!!!!   That clear enough?

As Steve said duress gets rid of workshop and aggro control threats and other combo while xantid is only really good vs control.  Hence, unless ur meta is control INSANE, duress is the better md choice.

So, I think TPS is the way to go

 I must hear that said on every meandeath thread (not to say I don't agree with it ).

[BreathWeapon]

When I say TPS, I meen U/b Death Long with 4xForce of Will (The Deck No One Plays But Me). I think the lists played in Europe are total piles in comparison to U/b Death Long, I'm just waiting for some one with more time on their hands to pick up the ball and run with it.

[Rainula]

Oddly enough, I think that this question is best answered by how prepared your enviroment is to welders than anything else. That being if welders are running rampent, then the natural answer is anti-welder cards, which also kill xantid.

Most of the time you kill before a welder even sees the board. But a balance can get rid of those nasty Red dudes. Play lava dart or something

Actually, I interpreted Rainula's comment to mean, "watch out for splash damage from burn that has risen in decks as a result of fear of Welders."  Correct me if I'm wrong.  In other words, if people start running Lava Darts or more Fires to deal with Welders, that same burn will take out your Xantids, so it's a metagame call as to how effective it would be to maindeck Swarms.

your interpretation is the one of correctitude.  After a bit more playtesting, I believe that if you are safe from hate, then the xantids represent a better choice for disruption.  Also, take note that this issue is metagame dependent.  Treat this similarly to the dragon situation, if you believe your meta will allow xantids without to much trouble, then by all means go xantid.

A side note that should be mentioned is that a mixture is probably not the best idea because the two solutions, xantid and duress, are different enough that they need to supersaturate the answers to your threats in different ways and having less than four of either one, albeit that there is some cross benifits like durressing away a fire/ice to push though the xantid, will not be more effective than a purebreed form of disruption.

I think it is also neccessary to state why xantids are superior to durresses  given that they both do what they are supposed to do.  In LongDeath, MeanDeath, or Deathlong you will probably cast some form of draw seven before winning and before your tendrills is leathal.  Ideally durress gives you some certainty about what your opponent can do to respond to your speed in addition to striping one couter from thier hand.  Xantid, when cast on the first turn will probably remove two blue cards (a force and something else) from your opponents hand or spell game over in the next turn or two because that draw seven will never get them more answers.  However, if they have swords or fire/ice, you will definately be hurting because that investment netted no advantage to you going off.  That is how I see it.  I don't think this is the right thread to say much more about the xantid swarm in the main because I don't want to hijack it, but if someone pms me about starting a thread about this topic, I'll definately start one.  I would appreceate to hear how people play the deck as far as my first few questions are concerned.

One thing I've noticed more and more in playtesting this deck is the importance of reading an opponent.  If you have three draw sevens in the first rip, This can be amazing or horrible (at most one is the twister, and the rest will just dump your hand with the other two draw sevens in the yard, which will mean that you have one non wished-in draw seven left and an opponent with a fresh 7).  If you really see force in you opponents eyes (not just some stupid bluff at having one), don't go for the twister when wheel, or windfall does the same job of taking a force from thier hand.  Save the twister for threat two or even three.  The combo game, whether you're playing it or against it, is more poker skills oriented than any other form of magic.  A good call will pay off in spades and a bad one can lose you top 8.  Most people say that means it's a luck deck, but it is just a different form of skill.  In this particular example, Jar is a middle ground card, definately not as good as twister for the short term, but more explosive in the long term as you save the other draw sevens and have a free turn to go off after untapping unless you try to go for the gold after spending five mana.

[Necrologia]

Breath Weapon, would you mind posting your list? B/U long sounds interesting. The only thing I don't like about it is that it losses Swarms, which are all but necesary vs. mono-u.