newb question about the dragon combo

[bdg4life]

Hello,
 I am new to T1, and have a question about stopping the dragon combo.
I know when the animate dead targets the dragon, and the dragon comes back into play, all perms are removed from the game, and the animate spell is removed, thus sending the dragon back to the grave. My question is how would you be able to stop this? If i have a BEB in hand and zap the dragon as he comes into play, would his permanents stay removed or would they come back?

[pox_reborn]

Think of it like this:

Dragon comes into play on stack
use swords to plowshares on dragon

This then puts leaves play ability on top of comes into play ability.
Leaves play returns nothing.
And then comes into play ability resolves removing all the permanents of the sad little dragon player.

Any creature destruction or things like stifle will stop the combo and remove all of their permanents.

[everythingitouchdies]

Be sure you stifle the right ability... I have had people stifle the come into play ability and I have 7/7 flyer and dont lose my permenants.

[Swordsman]

Think of it like this:

Dragon comes into play on stack
use swords to plowshares on dragon

This then puts leaves play ability on top of comes into play ability.
Leaves play returns nothing.
And then comes into play ability resolves removing all the permanents of the sad little dragon player.

Any creature destruction or things like stifle will stop the combo and remove all of their permanents.

So your Swording when it comes into play before the other abilities go on stack? So the Swords resolves last?

[Binary]

Think of it like this:

Dragon comes into play on stack
use swords to plowshares on dragon

This then puts leaves play ability on top of comes into play ability.
Leaves play returns nothing.
And then comes into play ability resolves removing all the permanents of the sad little dragon player.

Any creature destruction or things like stifle will stop the combo and remove all of their permanents.

So your Swording when it comes into play before the other abilities go on stack? So the Swords resolves last?

No.

You cast Swords to Plowshares after the Dragon's CIP ability goes on the stack, but before it resolves.

This forces the Dragon's leaves play ability to go on the stack, and consequently resolve, before the CIP ability does.

So the leaves play ability resolves first, returning 0 permanents to play, then the CIP ability resolves removing all that player's permanents from the game.

[pox_reborn]

Be sure you stifle the right ability... I have had people stifle the come into play ability and I have 7/7 flyer and dont lose my permenants.

Yeah your right.  For stifle it would go like this:

Dragon CIP resolves.
Dragon goes to graveyard because of animate trigger.
Dragon Leaves play trigger on stack.
Stifle Leaves play trigger
No permanents return.

[wonkey_donkey]

Be sure you stifle the right ability... I have had people stifle the come into play ability and I have 7/7 flyer and dont lose my permenants.

Yeah your right.  For stifle it would go like this:

Dragon CIP resolves.
Dragon goes to graveyard because of animate trigger.
Dragon Leaves play trigger on stack.
Stifle Leaves play trigger
No permanents return.

Often better is to wait until they've floated all their mana, and then stifle the animate trigger on ambassador. Then they burn to death. However, if they've got a bazaar or (worse) compulsion in play, they may well be able to find a necromancy in time to respond by casting that, targeting the ambassador. So be careful with this.

Tom

[Kaiser von Hugal]

What happens when you naturalize/disenchant the animate dead?  I assume that when the dragon player casts animate dead and targets said dragon - that is when you naturalize the animate dead.  The CIP effects go on the stack once the dragon is targetted with animate dead and the naturalize removes the animate dead.   The CIP effect of the dragon coming into play removes his permanents from the game and naturalizing the animate dead puts his dragon in the graveyard.  Is this correct?  The reason I ask, is that I did this in a tournie and the judge ruled that the dragon remains in play and all of his other permanents are removed.  I'm wondering if I just didn't play naturalize in the right sequence of the stack.

[Toad]

When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control enchanted by Animate Dead.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

Opponent casts Animate Dead, which resolves and comes into play. He choses to target his WGD. If you Naturalize at that time, the Animate Dead leaves play, then its trigger resolves and WGD CIP. All the opponent's perms are RFG but the Dragon stays in play since as the Animate Dead is not in play, its LP ability wont be checked.

Correct moment to Naturalize the Animate Dead is to let its trigger resolve so the WGD CIP. Then Naturalize with the WGD trigger on the stack.

Edited for clarity, thanks Ephraim

[Ephraim]

Toaddy, I think there's a typo in your post that reduces clarity:

Opponent casts Animate Dead, which resolves and comes into play. He choses to target his WGD. If you Naturalize at that time, the Naturalize leaves play, then its trigger resolves and WGD CIP.

I think instead, the last sentence ought to be: If you Naturalize at that time, the Animate Dead leaves play...

[Dante]

Be sure you stifle the right ability... I have had people stifle the come into play ability and I have 7/7 flyer and dont lose my permenants.

Yeah your right.  For stifle it would go like this:

Dragon CIP resolves.
Dragon goes to graveyard because of animate trigger.
Dragon Leaves play trigger on stack.
Stifle Leaves play trigger
No permanents return.

Often better is to wait until they've floated all their mana, and then stifle the animate trigger on ambassador. Then they burn to death. However, if they've got a bazaar or (worse) compulsion in play, they may well be able to find a necromancy in time to respond by casting that, targeting the ambassador. So be careful with this.

Tom

Or if they have a second animate, or intuition, or tutor, they could get another animate spell.

[Jacob Orlove]

When Animate Dead comes into play, if it's in play, it becomes an enchant creature. Put target creature card from a graveyard into play under your control enchanted by Animate Dead.
Enchanted creature gets -1/-0.
When Animate Dead leaves play, destroy enchanted creature. It can't be regenerated.

Opponent casts Animate Dead, which resolves and comes into play. He choses to target his WGD. If you Naturalize at that time, the Animate Dead leaves play, then its trigger resolves and WGD CIP. All the opponent's perms are RFG but the Dragon stays in play since as the Animate Dead is not in play, its LP ability wont be checked.

Correct moment to Naturalize the Animate Dead is to let its trigger resolve so the WGD CIP. Then Naturalize with the WGD trigger on the stack.

Edited for clarity, thanks Ephraim

Toaddy, you're ignoring the "if it's in play" clause on animate dead. If you kill the animate before the dragon comes out, the animate's ability will NOT happen.

[Limbo]

Jacob is right. For the animate to work, you need both the dragon and the animate dead in play for it to resolve. Just like you can fizzle a goblin welder's ability by removing either target from play, you can "fizzle" an animate dead by removing either the animate or the dragon. Remember that when you remove the dragon with a tormod's crypt or something, that the animate dead will remain in play as a normal enchantment. When the dragon player succeeds in triggering a new animate loop with a new animate effect, the dragon player can use the animate dead already in play to loot all graveyards for creatures and put them into play.

Edit: Removed typo.

[c hurrle]

This entire discussion is why good Dragon decks run Xantid Swarm. If they run STP, they'd better have two. If they run Stifle or Naturalize/Disenchant, they're stuck. Protecting your combo is how combo wins games...

This discussion is about rules, not strategy