R/G Hate

[[supa_t(im)]]

Hello all.  I haven't posted a possibly competitive deck on these boards, so this is a good a place to start as any.

Last time I went to a tournament I brought a deck specifically designed to kill scrubs and contend with Dragon as well.  When I got there the scrubby decks were gone, all replaced by Fish, 4cC, Workshop, and even FEB.  My deck got pounded.  Since I don't have staples of making a control deck, and I'm not good enough with Fish, I decided to make my R/G beats deck better.  So I changed it into R/G Zoo/R/G Hate (whichever you prefer).

At the tournament there was about 6 people playing U/R Fish, 2-3 4cC, 1 Workshop (possibly 7/10 split but also had DSC), 1 FEB, 1 G/W aggro, 1 Stompy (WTF!!??).  So there were still some scrubby decks.

I'm thinking this deck might work:

24 Land/Mana
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Lotus Petal
4 ESG

17 Beats
4 River Boa
3 Troll Ascetic
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman

3 Hate
3 Null Rod

16 Burn Utility
4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Rancor

SB
4 REB
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
3 Fractured Loyalty
1 Troll Ascetic

Manabase
I think this is pretty stable.  I'm reluctant to cut anything (unless I get power).  I really love ESG, at very best she can accelerate a turn 1 Troll, at very worst she's a 2/2.  Really can't go wrong.

Beats
I'm thinking its pretty standard.  I would put the 4 troll in for more controllish matchups.  I'm thinking about MDing him, but I'm not sure what to take out.  only 3 lavamancer b/c I don't think I could support 4.  I'm not sure about 3 Mox Monkeys, would 4 be better?

Hate
Duh. . .

Burn/Utility
I have found Magma jet really useful to lessen dead draws.  And with a lot of fish running around 2 dmg is sufficient.  Rancor is really good with Troll/Boa, but it can really benefit any critter (even ESG!!).

SB
REB in for burn against control
Tormod's Crypt in for burn against Dragon, FEB, and if Tog shows up (probably not if Fish is still there)
Blood Moon in for burn against control, and workshop
Fractured Loyalty in for beats against Workshop, and if Broodstar Affinity shows up (has before), maybe FEB.
Troll in for ? for control

Suggestions?  Comments?  Death Threats?

Thanks!

[Tainted_Wood]

For your meta that seems like a pretty good deck, though the shamans don't seem all that good for you.  (only because of the meta)  I would like to see more lava mancers (but then again, I'm a fish player).

The only questionable card, main deck is magma jet.  I'm not sure how good that is, but I'm not going to scold it as I have no experience with it.

I can't imagine how you don't have artifact mutation in the board (or main deck if your metagame had more workshops).  That card is really your best chance to win a LOT of games/matches.

Fractured Loyalty seems a bit strange, but it may be your only chance to deal with huge creatures.  There's gotta be a better card, though to be honest, I can't think of one right now.  If you are just looking for answers to workshop and affinity decks, I would point more towards artifact mutation.  It doesn't stop the broodstar or Shapeshifter, but fractured loyalty is such a bad card.

Other than that I think you have a good balance of creatures and burn.

[Moxlotus]

Magma jet looks like crap.  F/I is better at serving fish a helping of hotsaucce and Price of Progress is much better at sending it right to the dome.  Chain Lightning by itself is better than Magma jet anyways.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Magma jet looks like crap.  F/I is better at serving fish a helping of hotsaucce and Price of Progress is much better at sending it right to the dome.  Chain Lightning by itself is better than Magma jet anyways.

See, I would have to disagree.  Considering I already run F/I the cards in comparison here are Magma jet and Chain lightning.

Here is what I have come up with:
Chain is usually chained back, and usually to one of my critters, creating a loss of tempo.  I can chain it back to my opponent, but with wastelands running rampant (and with my lack of power) I may have trouble keeping regeneration mana open.

Magma jet can't get shot back at me (unless mis'd), therefore my critters are safer.  The 1 less damage doesn't matter against decks in my meta, since I usually target critters over player.  The scry ability has been amazing, virtually halving the amount of dead draws I get.  If I want to be playing a threat each turn, magma jet is invaluable, as it can get me those threats.  Chain is a better card in other situations (really overall), but in this deck its not as good.

PoP hurts me just as much as Fish, and my wastelands weeken it anyway.  I've always thought of it in sligh decks, over the new controllish versions of R/G Hate.

@Tainted_Wood
I could try with 4 lavamancers but I really don't think I have the support for more than 1 at a time (hence 3).  I don't think I can fuel them all.

Fractured loyalty was used in some modern sligh decks that actually were quite competitive.  I believe the tech came from Team The Fringe, but I'm not sure.

Artifact mutation is the more standard choice, but I am worried about it being too narrow.  However, now that Fish has been MDing CoW, it might not be a bad idea.  I think I might drop a mountain to put the 4th troll MD, and test with 4 in the SB.  Although, I'll keep looking into Fractured Loyalty.

Thanks.

any other suggestions/comments?

[Jujuboy]

You're nuts about Chain Lightning, your opponent will rarely have 2 red open and even if they do you can choose not to play chain lightning until you have 3 red open. I don't like Magma Jet and I've actually play tested it in mono red where there is more room for it. If you want deck manipulation, I'd adovocate Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guile over Magma Jet.

Artifact mutation is an auto include for a R/G deck, I'd want a minimum of three in my board, it's just too nasty.

As for fractured loyalty, I can imagine it performing well in a deck with multiple Fire&Ice and/or Lava Darts as well as Lavamancers. If it works use it.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

My suggestions are in caps below.  I'm suggesting reinforcing the 'hate' aspect of the deck a bit more.  Sometimes beats just won't cut it.  By including more fetchlands, sylvan library, and crucible of worlds, this allows the deck to top deck/ find answers during those crucial turn 4-5 plays after mox monkey/null rod/wastes have stymied your opponents' turns 1-3.  I've swapped kird ape for mogg fanatic because of his versatility and his ability to kill welders (god I hate them).  If you can proxy power - then I would drop the ESG's and 1 Mountain and add 2 Mishra's, Ruby, Emerald, Lotus.  Adding the mishra's would allow you to drop the Rancor's in favor of MD'ing 3 naturalize.  Since you're running Mox Monkey, include Mana crypt, you need the speed.  You may want to test 4 Trolls - I have used 4 of them but sometimes I like to swap 2 of them for Call of the Herd to take advantage of crypt more.

24 Land/Mana
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 WINDSWEPT HEATH
4 Wasteland
2 FOREST
2 MOUNTAIN
1 Strip Mine
1 MANA CRYPT
4 esg

4 River Boa
4 TROLL ASCETIC
4 MOGG FANATIC
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 GORILLA SHAMAN

2 NULL ROD

4 Fire/Ice
4 Lightning Bolt
2 CRUCIBLE OF WORLDS
2 SYLVAN LIBRARY
3 RANCOR

SB
4 REB
4 Tormod's crypt
2 Null Rod
1 PYROBLAST
4 ARTIFACT MUTATION - you need this against STAX,TNT,COLOSSUS - just do it:)

[[supa_t(im)]]

Thanks for everyone's replies.

I see your point about Chain Lightning but what is it about Magma Jet that nobody likes?  Is it the 2 mana for 2 dmg?  The scry ability makes up for that IMHO.

Sylvan library seems slow to me.  I would rather play a threat during my turn than library.  The digging ability does seem useful, but I'm just not sure.  I've been having really good results with the jet.  However, the manipulation does seem good, so I'll give it a try.

I agree about the mutation though.  I think I'm gonna take out fractured loyalty for it.

@Kaiser
You say you are reinforcing the hate yet you leave out Blood Moon.  IMHO Moon is far more effective than CoW.  It just takes care of the problem instead of pieces of the problem.  Also you drop 1 null rod, which is a huge piece of hate for this deck, that doesn't seem logical to me, please explain your reasoning.

I was thinking about dropping 1 rancor, but they are just so good with the troll.  I guess you only really need to have 1 to be effective, so I'll test with 4 trolls and 3 rancor.

Hmm, MF in place of Ape.  Sounds promising but Ape is just so nostaligc.  *sigh*  I don't see welder too often, but I guess he would be good at taking care of gay faeries and lavamancers.

Thanks again for all the input.  I'll see if I can get an updated decklist up sometime.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

I did keep the 3rd rod in the board.  With rancor - you need targets.  I dropped one rod and upped the shaman count to 4.  The fourth shaman adds some insurance that crypt won't kill you as a side bennie.  I feel the same way about BM as you do.  If I wasn't running sylvan, I would be running BM instead of CoW.  This configuration with CoW can still play significant mana denial without BM (both would simply dilute the deck, having not enough threats early).  I feel that adding sylvan gives the deck mid game strength.  Running 6 fetch land allows you to see new cards off the sylvan - even without CowW in play.  Add to this CoW, and now you're shuffling the deck quite a bit to get to the answers you need OR you're ruining their mana base with wastes/strip.  This adds another dimension to the deck over what BM contributes.  There are some matchups where you would rather DESTROY their land rather than let them tap it for red - don't misunderstand me on this though.  BM is better than CoW in R/G Beats if you just look as those two cards.   The synergy between CoW, Fetch land, Sylvan, Wasteland/Stripmine - as well as the independent utility of said cards has convinced me to run Cow over BM.  Sylvan being the key - dropping Sylvan means MD'ing Blood moon.  If you drop the rancors in place of 3 naturalize, then you can keep the 3 rod/3 shaman set you had.  You will need to replace the damage source that is rancor though - that's why I suggest Mishra's as there's added synergy with this man land and CoW.  I hated dropping Kird Ape - really I did.  A side benefit of Mogg is that he can help feed Lavamancer.  In this build, I want to keep the sac lands IN the graveyard to recycle.  Having another 4-of card that can find its way into graveyard when I want it to helps out.   I haven't tested Magma Jet - with the build I'm proposing, I think it could work.  4 MF, 4 Bolts, 3 Lavamancers and 4 Magma Jet could work.  I do like its scry ability - especially coupled with the fetchlands and sylvan.

ps.  I'm also considering dropping the naturalize for Artifact Mutation MD.  I say this because the last tournie I was in I played against a deck where I didn't have any good sideboarding options AND my main decked Blood Moons were useless.  I sideboarded my Artifact mutations and kept my null rods in.  My thought was that I could mutate my own null rods for critters if need be to block.  I do fear animate dead - other than that, there aren't too many MD'ed enchantments being played.  If need be - I could use this same trick on null rods or CoW.  I know this sounds desparate and completely counter productive.  I can say that there have been times where naturalize has just sat dead in my hand though and having a few more beat sticks would have been helpful.  Just a thought.

[Tainted_Wood]

So can your metagame really support the crucibles?  if it can, then bloodmoon would probably be better.

If you do add the fanatics, then the lavamancers are probably better after that.  I do believe that the magma jet isn't all that good.  I think I would rather run incenerate, (though I do agree that chain lightning is the correct choice), but as I said, I haven't tested it in zoo.

The way I see it, your deck is so redundant that the scry isn't all that good except for keeping lands away.  but that's probably not as good as 1 more damage.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Okay, I get the redundancy issue, so I think I'm gonna use incinerate over jet (I usually just borrow the chain).

I'm not sure about MDing BM.  When it hurts my opponent, it hurts bad, but when it just sist there against a mono color deck, well it doesn't help.  With the return of BBS, I'm not sure it deserves a MD slot.  It doesn't stop affinity, or welder, or BBS.  If anything, I would run Artifact Mutation MD.

Okay the deck with some changes:

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
3 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
1 Lotus Petal
4 ESG
(If I had some more fetches I would use them)

Beats
4 River Boa
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Mogg Fanatic
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman

Burn/Utility
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Incinerate
3 Rancor

Hate
3 Null Rod

SB
4 REB
4 Tormod's Crypt (maybe naturalize to beat Dragon, and take out arti/enchants)
4 Artifact Mutation
3 Blood Moon

Does that look any better?

[Trollstorm]

I'd cut a Gorilla Shaman for a fourth Grim Lavamancer. I'd also find room for Price of Progress if you plan on taking this to a "big" tourney. It's a house.

[policehq]

In my experience, 3 Gorilla Shaman and 3 Null Rod are not optimal. I play 1 Gorilla Shaman and 3 Null Rod. This would especially be better in your budget meta, if I understand correctly. -2 Gorilla Shaman, +1 Rancor, +1 Grim Lavamancer. Also from experience I've learned that when playing Aggro decks that are not Food Chain Goblins, the first player with an active Grim Lavamancer wins.

I don't think you need 16 burn "spells." I'd switch the Mogg Fanatics back to Kird Apes. -4 Mogg Fanatic, +4 Kird Ape.

I personally prefer Call of the Herd over Troll Ascetic, but that's a personal choice. There are good reasons to argue for either one.

In a budget meta, it seems that Food Chain Goblins would be the easiest, best Aggro deck to make. If you do not choose to make it yourself, try to play Sphere of Resistance or Goblin Sharpshooter over Red Elemental Blasts to try and help your game in that match-up. Without a good sideboard against it, I'd have to ask why you would play R/G Beats over Food Chain Goblins anyway.

Barry

[[supa_t(im)]]

Without a good sideboard against it, I'd have to ask why you would play R/G Beats over Food Chain Goblins anyway.

Because FCG gets pwned by Fish and 4cC, and those are the decks I'm seeing most of.

A slight meta-shift has occured, some Mask variant showed up.

A lot of people seem to suggest using 4 lavamancers.  I was under the impression this deck couldn't support that many.  However, since people seem to love him so much, I guess I could squeeze the 4th in there.  Is everyone in agreement about this?

I'm not sure about dropping 2 Mox monkeys.  he can still be effective against Fish, especially if they drop a standstill early, with a mox in play.  It can almost eliminate their board advantage.  If I'm not mistaken, he can also eat mishramen a well.  He's also golden against 4cC and welder (if I eat their welder fodder, they can't weld anything).  Don't forget his ability to eat artifact lands.  Null rod can help in the affinity matchup, but their arti-lands still up their count to get out that Myr Enforcer, and that isn't good.  If anything, I'll drop the count to 2, but probably not to 1.

I'm still working with the Kird Apes and Mogg Fanatics right now.  I think with the grim lavamancer, I may not need mogg fanatic.  However, I'm still testing them out.

The thing about Troll, is that he just doesn't die, and gives gay/r fits.  He even survives Disk and Deed if they ever show up.  CotH can grant card advantage, but I'd rather just have a beater that doesn't die.  I can see how it is a matter of personal taste, and metagame though.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Keep it up.

[policehq]

Really look at your deck, and then tell me if you honestly believe that Goblin Welder is going to be a problem against you. Then consider how effective eating their moxen actually will be when you're already playing Null Rod. Fish runs Null Rod (oh, and doesn't own FCG at all), so that is not an issue, either.

River Boas die in the early game, and Troll Ascetics most definitely will die, too. That kind of comment can't possibly come from any testing.

Barry

[Jacob Orlove]

If I'm not mistaken, he can also eat mishramen a well.

You most definitely are mistaken.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Oh thats right, only non creature artifacts.  

I know I'm not the first to forget that.

@policehq
Maybe you are right about Mox monkey, but I think I'm still gonna run 2.

Actually my testing has shown that while Boa does die early game, troll actually sticks around very long.  There is no way for fish to get rid of him, in my experience.  Please don't assume.

You're right Fish doesn't pwn FCG, but the match is a very winable match for Fish.  Besides, if I can beat fish, but not 4cC, whats the point of FCG.  Especially since those are the decks that t8 all the time.  I don't see FCG being a problem for me to beat either, not the best mathcup, but certainly winable.

Thanks for the input.

Any more observations?

[Kaiser von Hugal]

You could put a couple of slice and dice in the board.  It can help against fish/FCG/soldier tokens - in the unlikely situation it can also kill big things, plus it replaces itself.  It can get you out of overwhelming situations

[MindFlayerMagi]

Well, Fish really shouldn't be a problem for you. With 10-12 burn spells being typical to most R/G builds, along with 5 strip effects and Grim Lavamancer, it becomes a fairly easy matchup. While it isn't anywhere near an "auto-win", it is most definitely in your favor.

With Top 8's filled by 4cC and Fish, these are the obvious sideboard inclusions:

3 Blood Moon
4 Red Elemental Blast

If you don't encounter a lot of Workshop decks, then I think you may be better off with Naturalize over Artifact Mutation. Naturalize doubles against Dragon, and can also help stop Fish's tempo.

While Fish is an easier matchup, I have not done enough testing against 4cC to be able to give much specific advice. If someone has some more experience in this area, that would be great.

Blood Moon really shines here (as in most heavy control decks, like Tog and the aforementioned 4cC). However, it can have some detrimental effects on you.

Since you run ESG, it is easier to power out green cards after you drop a Blood Moon. I've beat a Tog player with just a River Boa after laying a Null Rod and a Blood Moon.

Some cards to through out as thought-food (not mentioned above):

Price of Progress
Scald
Primitive Justice
Hidden Gibbons

If personal testing against fish goes badly, you can always try out Tsabo's Web to snub them pretty badly. Then your burn just takes over to take out Faeries and such.

Slice and Dice can definitely help against angel tokens and FCG. It helps against Fish, but probably isn't necessary for that, however. But I like the way it demolishes angel tokens.

The number of Gorilla Shamans you run is really dependant on your meta. If you have a TON of power going around, then it is probably best at 3 Gorilla Shaman and 3 Null Rod. Against a less powered meta, 2 would be my minimum. If your meta is scrub-tastic, then they probably aren't needed. 2-3 Null Rods MD may be enough to stop random painful artifacts (although removal is typically flat-out better for that).

Boa is crazy against decks like Tog and BBS. Troll is like Boa on crack, but without Islandwalk. It is bigger, untargetable, and is a must-counter for so many decks. Trolls are kind of like herpes. They just never go away.

~MindFlayerMagi

[[supa_t(im)]]

Thanks for the reply MindFlayerMagi.  I've tested against 2 separate Fish decks a number of times, and it is definitely a winable match.

However, I've never actually gone up against 4cC, so thats were my concern is.  If anyone has info on how this deck would do please share.

I'm not sure I need SnD, with 12 Burn spells and MF, it seems like overkill.

BTW, I dropped 1 Mox Monkey for the 4th Rancor, and that seems to be doing well against the decks I usually play against.  Once again though, I haven't been able to test against 4cC.

Suggestions on this particular situation?  or anything else?

Thanks so far everyone!

[Kaiser von Hugal]

Taking down a 4cc with R/G beats...focus on controlling their mana base.  Especially things that produce white.  The tried and true method of 2-4 (preferably 4) mox monkies, 4 wastes, 1 strip, 2-3 null rods, and 3-4 blood moons from the board backed up with 4 ReB's should do it.  You could drop 3 lavamancers and 4 Fire/Ice to board in the BM's and ReB's.  You won't out draw them or out counter them - I found the best way is to reinforce a theme already in the maindeck works best.  Keep the bolts in hand until they play a face down angel or you can kill them with it.  Baiting them by sending the bolts to the dome at eot to set up a blood moon with ReB back up next turn would be the only other time I would use them.  Primarily though, keep them in hand to kill angels.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I would md at least 2-3 bloodmoon because it is such a house.  Against fish, 4cc, dragon, resolved bloodmoon=gg.

Yes, you should sb the artifact mutations.  New oracle text vs workshop decks reads: RG, instant: Win the game.

I think magma jet is alot better than people give it credit for.  Scrying to fix your next 2 draws is really good in a deck that is lacking a solid draw engine.  You need to keep casting stuff throughout the mid game; if you topdeck crap you sometimes just lose, and jet can help fix that.  Way better than incinerate

Sylvan+ fetch is extreamly powereul and could give this deck the kind of draw it is looking for, however I'm not sure whether it fits in with the deck or not.

Gollila shamen: "non-creature artifact"  please don't try to eat factories with these.

Now, on the shamen/rod argument, we must realise that shamen and rod serve different purposes.  Shamen provided direct card advatntage while rod only gives virutal card advantage (they can wish and nuke rod thus reactivating moxes, where with a shamen they need a yawg will).  Also the fact that shamen shuts down welders welding moxes for evil shit (think pentavus, p angel, sundering titan, etc), while rod does not.  Also for the mana denial aspect shamen always lets them have 1 activation of a mox and matters very little when dealing with lotus.  Rod shines in both of these departments.  All in all, I think 3-4 shamen is probably overkill and would stick to 1-2 in addition to the 2-3 maindeck rods.

Mancers are really amazing (I say this as a WTF/r player), and I think 4 is prpbably the bast number.  If fish can support them runing conditional spells such as daze and stifle (you can't always cast these and fill the grave), as well as running cruicible and wanting to save fetches/wastes to recyle instead of grmming with them, you certinly can as most of your spells are burn that is castable any time in addition of having fetches as wastes without needing to save them for cruicible.  Wizards probably made a mistake in printing the insane little red man as is, so why not capitalize on his awesomeness?

[[supa_t(im)]]

Thanks for the advice.

So you are saying to MD Blood Moon?  It think that depends on what I take out.  What do you suggest?

Yes SB AM, you are right, it wins games.

I'm still testing Magma Jet.  I'm starting to move back toward Jet because of the better topdecks.

Yes, I identified my mistake with Mox Monkey, thankyou Jacob Orlove.

I agree that 2 Shaman and 3 Null Rod seems right.  With this format, my deck is undefeated as of yet.

Thanks for your help.

Keep up the suggestions.

[Kaiser von Hugal]

To include 3 BM's I'd recommend a list like this:

3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Kird Ape
4 River Boa
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Lavamancer
3 Null Rod
3 Rancor
3 Blood Moon
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice - Magma Jet

4 ESG
4 Wastes
1 Strip
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Mountains
4 Forests

[policehq]

With maindeck Blood Moon cards, I definitely feel that Call of the Herd over Troll Ascetic is optimal. Furthermore, I think that maindeck Blood Moon is a good choice; I personally run 4.

Barry

[JamesPr]

Here's my take on the deck, many of your card choices are good but others I feel are lacking.

3x Gorilla Shaman
4x Kird Ape
4x River Boa
4x Troll Ascetic
3x Grim Lavamancer (You only want to draw one a game, Fire/Ice food also with multiples.)

4x Rancor (Too powerful not to run four)
3x Null Rod
4x Blood Moon (Four is optimal with added acceleration which is needed because this card has the most impact the first or second turn)

4x Lightning Bolt
3x Chain Lightning (Magma Jet's nice but this deck isn't that slow to make it useful.)

4x ESG
1x Chrome Mox (More acceleration, bad with null rod but you want that turn one blood moon)
1x Lotus Petal (Turn one blood moon)
1x Mana Crypt (Want turn one blood moon proxy this if you don't have it)
1x Mox Ruby (Turn one blood Moon, proxy if you don't have this)
1x Black Lotus (Turn one Blood Moon, proxy if you don't have this)
3x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Taiga

The reason I included power is because most tournaments do allow up to five proxies and power is what you should proxy.  The rest of the cards in the deck are all under $5 except for the Tiagas and accelerants)  If you don't have tiagas then you can subsitute them by adding four karplusan forests, a mountain, and a forest.  Then take out two chain lightnings because you probably don't have those either.

I think with acceleration two crucibles could be beneficial in this deck, and you could maybe even add a crop rotation.

[MindFlayerMagi]

I really think that 4 MD Blood Moon is too much. Even if half of your field is control, you will hit yourself over the head when you draw as a dead card every game against some noob with a Sligh deck and lose. While that's hyperbole, four is too many. Having 3 lets you draw it once, and then if you need to, board in a 4th against control and D4RG0N.

If you are only running 7-8 burn spells, I would much rather have 4 Lightning Bolt and 3-4 Fire/Ice. In all of my testing, it has been infinitely more versatile than either Magma Jet or Chain Lightning. Along with Grim Lavamancer, it lets you take out all manners of Aggro and Fish. For more burn, I still don't know whether Magma Jet or Chain Lightning is better for slots 9-12. The fixing is nice, but the less mana required for Chain Lightning is also nice. At the moment, that slot seems to be more personal preference.

(Magma Jet's nice but this deck isn't that slow to make it useful.)

Untrue. The deck, if anything, is an Aggro/Control deck. Against many decks, your plan is to drop a Null Rod or a Blood Moon and then sit back and keep problems off the board until you win. Most of the time, you aren't winning the same as you might goldfish the deck.

Running more artifact-mana than you need is not so great. While more can help under a Blood Moon, I think these thoughts:

1) The card disadvantage of Chrome Mox is bad. You don't have any way to recoup it.

2) Lotus Petal can be good. However, adding more artifact mana just gets you shut out more by your own Null Rods (which you want to lay quickly against most decks).

3) Mana Crypt sucks when the game drags. And, when you play a Null Rod, it deals three damage to you every two turns. Putting yourself on a clock is a bad thing.

4) I have discussed the argument against running any one-time artifact mana at-all. That includes Black Lotus, Lotus Petal, etc. This is mainly a concern if your meta is full of Slaver, Stax, or Workshop decks. Against these decks, you want to lay an early Null Rod, and having them just weld it out is bad.

Overall, you really need to run a full complement of 5 strip effects. If you maindeck Blood Moons (more than 2), then I wouldn't run any more fetches, but if not, then another 2 Windswept Heath can work well to get the Taigas you need and to thin your deck.

I've found 3 Grim Lavamancer to be the fairly ideal number. If your meta is full of Aggro, I would almost say add one of him and another set of burn (Chain Lightning/Magma Jet).

The reason I included power is because most tournaments do allow up to five proxies and power is what you should proxy. The rest of the cards in the deck are all under $5 except for the Taigas and accelerants) If you don't have taigas then you can substitute them by adding four karplusan forests, a mountain, and a forest. Then take out two chain lightnings because you probably don't have those either.

I'm not really sure where the idea that he's on a strict budget came from. We had a thorough discussion about Magma Jet vs. Chain Lightning previous, and he decided that he prefers Magma Jet. He has Taigas in his build. He doesn't have power, and I would think it a fair assumption that he doesn't play Proxy, otherwise they would be in the list. Anyway...

My current list looks like this:

R-G Beats v2.1

Mana (23)
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Forest
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald

Beats (18)
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 River Boa
4 Troll Ascetic
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer

Burn (8)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

Other (10)
4 Rancor
3 Null Rod
3 Blood Moon

Sideboard (15)
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Artifact Mutation
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Gorilla Shaman
3 [Open metagame slots]

This has been doing quite well in testing. Having 4 Elvish Spirit Guide helps a lot under a Blood Moon, but I have considered dropping one for another Forest (because reusable green sources are nice under a Blood Moon). Elvish Spirit Guide also doubles as non-artifact mana acceleration, which is a boon for the deck.

~MindFlayerMagi

[JamesPr]

Even if you have four dead cards against sligh in blood moon. your creatures are so much better than sligh's it shouldn't be a problem.  This deck has a slow clock but that doesn't mean the clock is slow enough to put magma jet in over chain lightning when chain lightning is much more effective.  Fire/Ice is a better card in vintage but in type 1.5 I don't think it gets a definite inclusion with all the fast big aggro running around.

Deleted

[MindFlayerMagi]

Even if you have four dead cards against sligh in blood moon. your creatures are so much better than sligh's it shouldn't be a problem.  This deck has a slow clock but that doesn't mean the clock is slow enough to put magma jet in over chain lightning when chain lightning is much more effective.  Fire/Ice is a better card in vintage but in type 1.5 I don't think it gets a definite inclusion with all the fast big aggro running around.

Against combo, control, or a lot of aggro in type 1.5 you want to have a first or second turn blood moon almost every game.  It completely destroys affinity which will be a strong deck in 1.5.

Since when did the discussion switch to Type 1.5? This is the Vintage Newbie Forum, not the Type 1.5 Forum.

Anyway, disregarding the 1.5 thing, some of your points are valid. A couple things...

First, Affinity is not destroyed by it. This is a typical artifact mana base for Affinity:

1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Lotus Petal

Then they have 13 non-basics. They can easily play around a Blood Moon, as they can still play the beatdown because red mana can be used on artifacts. Also, artifact lands are still artifacts under a Blood Moon. If you have more conclusive testing of this matchup then I do, then please share your results. It will drive this discussion better overall.

Fire/Ice is a better card in vintage but in type 1.5 I don't think it gets a definite inclusion with all the fast big aggro running around.

Well, this is Vintage, so yes it is an auto-inclusion. You had restricted cards in your list, so I would assume that your build was for Vintage.

This deck has a slow clock but that doesn't mean the clock is slow enough to put magma jet in over chain lightning when chain lightning is much more effective.

Again, I don't have enough pertinent playtesting information to make a final decision about this. However, I'm not sure how much you are grasping the fact that this deck isn't really that Aggro. Think Gay/r. You drop pertinent hate, lay some quick Rancored beats, and keep threats off the table. Magma Jet has two benefits over Chain Lightning:

1) Instant Speed
2) Draw-Fixing

In most competitive Vintage metagames, an extra point of damage isn't important. If you do find a lot of Aggro decks in your format, then maybe Chain Lightning is better. The extra mana really isn't a problem.

Now that I've been discussing this more, I'd almost say that my first choice for testing would be Magma Jet for slots 9-12 (if I ran more burn, which I don't).

Even if you have four dead cards against sligh in blood moon. your creatures are so much better than sligh's it shouldn't be a problem.

True. Having dead cards doesn't necessarily spell game loss. I think that 4 Blood Moon can be ran easier if you also run Magma Jet. This can help stop having multiples in your hand, or drawing it at all if you don't need it. The only problem is that Blood Moon is pretty much dead against more decks than just Sligh. Smemmen Blue, Sligh... Pretty much any mono-colored deck, which you will run in to. Since I do not run Magma Jet, I find that 4 Blood Moon is too much, and three is a better number. If you really find a lot of Control/D4RG0N/etc., then you can easily board in a fourth.

With maindeck Blood Moon cards, I definitely feel that Call of the Herd over Troll Ascetic is optimal.

This is one of the things that I am currently testing. Too bad I can't get any by the 10th for the tourney I'm taking this to.

I'm hoping to get some 4cC testing in soon. I'll let everyone know my results when I finish some matches.

~MindFlayerMagi

[Chaos Blade]

This deck is definatly powerful in a Control/Workshop based meta. Has anyone tried Mogg Fanatic in the Kird Ape spot? What would be better? Also Magma Jet is the shit giving the deck some deck manipluation, instead of mad topdecking. Im also thinking of puttign back Sylvan Library.

[MindFlayerMagi]

This deck is definatly powerful in a Control/Workshop based meta.

Very true. However, if you have a lot of Workshop, then you definitely want to be running 4 Artifact Mutation in the board, if not 4 Naturalize maindeck. Control is hard, but winnable.

Has anyone tried Mogg Fanatic in the Kird Ape spot? What would be better?

Yep. I have tried Mogg Fanatic. If you have a ton of Gay/r or Welders running around, or just a lot of random aggro, the Fanatic can be better than Kird Ape. However, most of the time the staying power of Kird Ape is quite fantastic. Really, it is more of a meta choice, but even then I prefer Kird Ape.

Also Magma Jet is the shit giving the deck some deck manipluation, instead of mad topdecking. Im also thinking of puttign back Sylvan Library.

I've tried both, but I've found two things:

1) Slots. I find only 8 burn to be necessary, and Lightning Bolt and Fire/Ice are superior to Magma Jet. Also, trying to find room for Libraries is hard. The deck is already quite full. If you don't run Blood Moon, you could opt for 3 Sylvan Library in their place, or something similar.

2) Effectiveness. Magma Jet is great because it doubles as removal and fixing. Sylvan Library is good, but is only one sided. If anyone has some testing of Library (more than I do, which isn't a ton), then it would be great if you'd share your results with it.

~MindFlayerMagi