R/G Hate

[Chaos Blade]

Well Library also seems better in a deck with U in it. Right now Im running 3 Blood Moon and loving it. I might also up the count on Magma Jet, also has anyone playtested any Mono U matches?

[JamesPr]

I'm just used to 1.5 since I've been posting a lot in it.  I deleted the whole 1.5 thing.  Anyway, I think since this is a hate deck four main deck blood moons is optimal because games with this type of deck are usually decided in the second and third turns.  Having a first or second turn blood moon greatly increases your chances of winning.  Now if games are typically won in the second or third turns magma Jet is too slow because the fixing will already be too late in what it does to make much of a difference.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Wow, thanks for all the interest.  Sorry I haven't been around, I was on a retreat for the weekend.

I would agree that 4 BM is too much.  That is because you only need to draw 1 to be effective, and it can be slightly narrow.  I know in my meta that only 3 would be necessary and they can probably stay in the SB.  However, in a more heavy 4cC/Dragon/Workshop metas I can see the merits of dropping a turn 1 BM.  I still only think it needs 3, to prevent dead draws.

Also, with the right strategy, and knowing your deck well, I believe it is very possible to run Troll Ascetic.  You have fetch lands to get you basic forests (before BM), and ESG to grant you random green mana.  I don't think it will be a problem.

With regards to winning in the 1st 2 turns, that only happens with combo.  Aggro-Control should have enough options in their deck to come back at anytime.  That is why I think that Magma Jet is slightly superior to Chain Lightning, at least in my metagame.

BTW, although this isn't really noteworthy, in testing I have found Sui to not be a problem.  

[JamesPr]

Well think about Blood Moon as a pure game ending card if resolved against control and other types of decks.  It basically reads, if this resolves you win the game.  Sure against scrubby aggro decks you should only play three, but in a healthy metagame you should play four definitely.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I would still disagree about running 4 Blood Moon.

They way I see it is that R/G Hate/z00 is still a primarilly aggro deck, therefore has built in ways for beating control.  I think that MDing more hate would be overkill.

Although I can see if you are in a high powered metagame full of both combo and control, to be effectively rogue, you would need to MD at least 3 BM.

Thats my take on it.

[JamesPr]

Has anyone thought about the inclusion of Hidden Gibbons?  Almost every deck plays artifacts of some type and It's a 5/3 trampler when one drops.

[Toad]

I've not read the entiere thread because 3 pages on a basic Aggro deck is quite boring, but I noticed everyone was like "omg Blood Moon so good, maindeck 4!!!!". Considering the current best decks are probably Drain Slaver variants, Mono-U, 2-land Belcher and Stax, could someone explain why Blood Moon is *that* hot as a maindeck card?

[MindFlayerMagi]

Well, really the Blood Moons are a metagame choice. Many of those discussing the deck find that they are essential for their meta.

With my meta (last Top 8):

1- D4RG0N
2- R4V4G3R
3- Salvagers
4- Storm Combo
5- Oshawa Stompy
6- 4CC
7- Masknought
8- Landstill

Blood Moons do a lot to help keep the deck on its feet. D4RG0N, O-Stomp, and 4cC all take extra hits from an early Blood Moon.

But that's also the reason why I don't recommend running four, unless your entire Top 8 is Dragon and 4cC. You just don't need it against a lot of other decks. If you only have a few 4cC around at your store, then they are better off in the board. I, however, have at least 3 4cC and a couple Dragon players most of the time. That makes it a lot better choice as maindecked hate.

Overall, it is really just a personal choice.

~MindFlayerMagi

[[supa_t(im)]]

@Toad
I would agree that running BM maindeck wouldn't be the best idea, unless your meta was full of control.  If it was full of combo, you shouldn't be playing this deck anyway.  In a fairly balanced metagame, I don't see BM being an effective card MD either.  I still think it should stay in the board.

Also, I don't think this is a "basic" aggro deck anymore.  I will concede that it is as basic as they come in order to truly be competitive, but a basic aggro deck plays differently than this one.  I don't think that the basic aggro decks have the control that this one has, or the options that this one presents during gameplay.  The goal is the same, but the means are slightly different.

@MindFlayerMagi
Dude, with all that combo running around you should play some friggin' control!!

[MindFlayerMagi]

Well, Blood Moon does do a lot against D4RG0N, but maybe not so much against other kinds of combo.

Dude, with all that combo running around you should play some friggin' control!!

But I'm poor...

Anyway, I just found out that I'm 99% likely to not be able to borrow the power that I need for this. This makes me a sad panda, as right now it means adding basic lands. Unless I can miraculously gain some combination of 3 Wasteland / 2 Null Rod to be able to proxy the three pieces, then I will have to do basics... Unless any of you have better suggestions.

I think that +2 Forest +1 Mountain would be best, to have some more fetchable basic Forests.

Any thoughts about this predicament?

~MindFlayerMagi

[Dralock]

Blood moon is a card that embodies the entire spirit of this deck.  Its cheap ($ wise), and is very effective againsed the decks that can take you down quickly.

This deck is meta dependent.  As MFM said before, you have to shape it to how it will work the best because it isn't just beatz, its hate.  

Trolls are a must.
Lotus is a must.
Rod is a must.
ESGs are a must.
Apes are a must.
Bolts are a must.

Everything else you can shape to your meta.  Though I would think river boa is an auto-include, it might just not be the absolute best choice for your meta (I actually have sligh show up a LOT in my meta).

I have yet to test magma jet, but the only thing this deck really lacks is the ability to topdeck perfectly.  Its topdecking is extraordinarily strong, but vs a first turn 3sphere or crucible/strip, being able to dig in any way would be nice.

I'm going to start testing out any kind of card drawing/manipulation that I can think of to try to get win ratios up a bit.  So far this deck is the scrubkiller, but still has lots of problems with tier 1/2.

It might be time to re-consider naturalize.  Budget decks will be popping up all over with oath in them and B2B really hurts the R/G manabase in its more recent incarnations.  

(off the top of my head)

Pros:  Back2Basics, animate dead, oath of druids, propoganda, spot-removal vs welder.dec., mono green.

Cons:  Artifact mutation wins games, costs 2, targets can regenerate.

Food for thought more than anything else.

@MFM

What is your manabase like now?

[MindFlayerMagi]

Actually, I received another Null Rod in the mail (trading), so I have one more open proxy slot. I'm not sure which of the three would be best though. I like Lotus, because I don't have that many welders/shops in my meta, but I also like Mox Emerald for its reusable green mana under a Blood Moon.

So currently I am something like this:

R/G v2.2

4 Troll Ascetic
4 Kird Ape
4 River Boa
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

4 Rancor
3 Null Rod
3 Blood Moon

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
4 Forest
1 Black Lotus / Mox Emerald / Mox Ruby
4 Elvish Spirit Guide

Sideboard:
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Artifact Mutation
1 Gorilla Shaman

I'm working on the last touches on the sideboard. Is there anything better to place there than the Chain Lightnings? They can come in and help burn out random aggro, or O-Stompy, but I'm sure that there is probably a better choice.

Any thoughts? Sideboard tweaks? I'm hoping to take this to a tourney on Sunday.

~MindFlayerMagi

[Pristine]

well i seem to be hoping into the thread a bit late but im here now, alright so im looking at all the conversation going on and im wondering where the hell is naturalize? i think naturalize is almost THE defining card of the rg deck. it beats alot of things including, combos like dragon! blood moon is a sideboard card, i highly suggest NOT running it in your MD because you dont want to just play random scrub round 1 who is playing like mono white shadow creatures and lose.

moving on null rod is also a SB card in my opinion, it is better replaced with cards like giant growth, which is basically bolt on a stick. also i dont really like the idea fire/ice personally, you need to drop that and run the hottest card ever created, BLURRED MONGOOSE!!!!! not even a joke that card is a beast.

if i were to create a r/g list i would suggest something like this

// Lands
    6  Forest
    6  Mountain
    1  Strip Mine
    4  Taiga
    1  Wasteland
    4  Wooded Foothills

// Creatures
    4  Blurred Mongoose
    3  Gorilla Shaman (1)
    4  Kird Ape
    4  River Boa
    2  Grim Lavamancer

// Spells
    2  Chain Lightning
    4  Giant Growth
    4  Lightning Bolt
    4  Naturalize
    4  Rancor
    1  Artifact Mutation

that list there leaves you with 2 open spots in the MD to adjust for what your meta is looking like, i usually end up throwing REBs in my open spots but GL and have fun with the deck, it really is fun.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Damn computer deleted my entire message    

@Pristine
This is R/G Hate (or R/G Tempo or R/G Zoo) not R/G beatz.  It needs control elements like Strips and Null rod to be competitive.  Also Troll is much better than Mongoose:  Troll can be rancored.  Mongoose can't.  Troll can survive deed/disk.  Mongoose can't.
Mongoose was good in Beatz but in R/G hate, Troll is much better.

Also Naturalize is not the thing that hoses dragon.  Naturalize gets duressed/therapied/unmaksed away.  Tormod's crypt hoses Dragon and can go down first turn to provide constant hate.

@Dralock & MFM
Is power really necessary in this deck.  I have found it detrimental (*gasp*).  That is because I really want to get Null Rod out, but when I do it slows down my mana, and keeps me from getting sometimes needed land drops.  Also I'm not sure about Lotus.  I have noticed that this deck needs consistent mana over fast mana, and welder does mean tricks with it and null rod.

Current Decklist
Land/Mana
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Mountain
3 Forest
1 Strip Mine

Beats
4 River Boa
4 Kird Ape
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman

Burn/Utility/Hate
4 Bolt
4 Fire/Ice
4 Magma Jet
4 Rancor
3 Null Rod

SB
4 REB
4 Artifact Mutation
3 Blood Moon
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Troll Ascetic

No power explained above, if you need more clarification please ask.

3 Trolls because I found them a finisher and I hated when I had more than 1 of them in my hand.  Moved the 4th to the board for control matchup.

Magma Jet has been awesome.  Killing weenies and digging into my deck has won me a few close games.  And, its never dead, your opponent will always be happy to take some damage straight to the dome.  Much better at beating Scrub.dec thatn MD Blood Moon.

What does anyone think of [card]scrabbling claws[/card]?  Worth it over crypt, or is crypt strictly better?

Thoughts?  Comments?

[Dralock]

Hrm, yes power is important.  Land is important as well though.  With strip effects you are going to be mana hungry and first turn null rod is generally your best option, even with power.  HuH?  Did he just say "play null rod even with power in the deck"?

Yes, I did, and this is how.

4 Taiga
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Bloodstained mire (stay with me here)
4 wooded foothills
3 forest
3 mountain
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby

26 mana sources!!!!  In R/G!?!  Are you crazy?!?!?!?!  Well, no.

Control your board.  Think of wasteland as a virtually uncounterable stone rain, that costs a lot less to use, instead of being a m ana source.  That it IS a mana source is a plus.

5 fetches for absolute mana fixing.  Full strips to control resources.  4 guides for that suprise attack, and an extra creature when needed.   Lotus for 1st turn troll and/or something crazy and a rod.

the rest of the deck is pretty standard

4 Troll
4 Boa
4 ape
3 shaman
3 lavamancer
4 Rancor
4 lightning bolt
3 Fire/Ice
3 Null rod
2 Artifact mutation // Blood moon

I run mutation maindeck on account of welder, stax and scepter control being so prevalent at my weekly tournament.  It wins games where I am, so it stays in.  Those who would run blood moon instead have their reasons to, and we can leave it at that.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I'm still not sure about the lotus.  You probably remember be advocating it in another discussion, but I'm not sure now with the trick wleder does with it.  In my experience this deck needs consistent mana, not so much fast mana.  For fast mana ESG usually works.  I'll try it again though, because the tempo that it does grant is quite useful, and lavamancer can sometimes prevent welder tricks.

I do think that 1 mox would be sufficient, similar to how Fish runs just sapphire.  I think emerald woud be best b/c it provides another green mana source, which is always good.

I also like the 5th fetch, but I don't have any Mires (or even heaths) so I didn't include it.

[Dralock]

About black lotus in R/G:

Lets assume this isn't the 1st turn (Unless they are playing survival, then it just might be) and you have already used your lotus to drop an early boa and null rod.  They lay down their moxen just to spite you, lay workshop and throw out 3sphere.  A couple of turns (and a few tangle wires) later you are looking down at 2 basic lands and a null rod but have managed to keep their workshops to one.  Welder is on the table and you are holding a fistfull of cards.

Do they weld out a null rod to bring in black lotus?

When would anyone ever weld out a null rod to put in a black lotus vs R/G?  Artifact mutation alone makes this a not-so-wise decision, nevermind the fact that you have the potential to do 9 damage from those 3 mana at instant speed.

On top of that, first turn if you have a troll and a lotus in hand, you can pretty much auto-keep it vs everything but GAT and Funk, which are the only decks I can think of off the top of my head that will be running an edict, if they even care about you having a troll.

It IS late and I AM tired, but these are reasons enough for me to keep it in my build.  May the force be with you and your decision, whichever way it goes.

[[supa_t(im)]]

If they are going to win, yes they are going to weld out null rod.  In a stituation like that probably not, but it seems sort of lucky to me.

Its kind of a moot point anyway, I already said that I'd give it another try.

I still don't think that Emerald, Ruby and Lotus are necessary though.  You could probably get away with Lotus and Emerald.

[MindFlayerMagi]

Well, I have one leftover proxy for the tournament Sunday. I have comtemplated a few things. I think that Mox Ruby is not good to have as the only power piece. However, I am still torn between Black Lotus or Mox Emerald.

Black Lotus-

Pros: Quick burst, any color mana
Cons: Welder target, only useable once

Mox Emerald-

Pros: Reusable green (great under a moon)
Cons: Only green, vulnerable to being eaten

At times I am leaning towards the Mox, but other times the benefits of the Lotus are powerful. Any opinions on this?

~MindFlayerMagi

[[supa_t(im)]]

I would go with emerald because it is still a tempo boost and gives you consistent green mana under Blood Moon (which I think you are MDing).

But I would drop the Ruby and run Lotus as well.  Especially where you have an abundance of red mana with Blood Moon.

$.02

[MindFlayerMagi]

Well, I decided on Lotus (as there is only a little bit of Workshop here).

I went 2-4 at the tourney today. No prize, but it was still a lot of fun.

My final build:

R/G v3.0

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Forest
2 Mountain
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

4 Troll Ascetic
4 Kird Ape
4 River Boa
3 Gorilla Shaman
3 Grim Lavamancer

3 Null Rod
3 Blood Moon

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fire/Ice

Sideboard:

4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Artifact Mutation
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Price of Progress

---------------------------------

I had made some fairly last minute changes to my sideboard. I didn't have 4 CotV or PoP, but I decided to run 2/2 over 4 Pyrostatic Pillar. I'm still not entirely sure if I made the right choice.

We had 43 people show up, and 6 rounds of play.

Match 1 - Joel Wood - 4cC

Game 1 - An early Blood Moon and some burn and beats made this go quick. The only creatures that hit the board on his side were two Soldier tokens off a cycled Decree of Justice.

Sideboard Out: 4 Fire/Ice, 2 Kird Ape
Sideboard In: 4 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Price of Progress

Game 2 - I had an early Rancored Boa, and he had a face-down Exalted Angel. He didn't have the mana to unmorph it, and so after taking four damage from it I threw a Lightning Bolt at it. After some more hectic plays, I finally worked him down to five life. A Price of Progress resolved, as he had used his last counter in hand on a previous spell of mine.

1 - 0 (2-0)

Match 2 - Craig - 4cC

Game 1 - First turn Exalted Angel is a bad thing, especially when you fail to draw enough burn to get rid of it. I'll leave it at that.

Sideboard Out: 4 Fire/Ice, 2 Kird Ape
Sideboard In: 4 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Price of Progress

Game 2 - I was able to get a Gorilla Shaman out and Rancor it, before it layed a second turn Exalted Angel. I had burn, but with the flash of an FoW the game went downhill from there.

1 - 1 (2-2)

Match 3 - Jason - LongDeath

Game 1 - I played a first turn River Boa, and Rancored him the next. He comboed out turn two, with a Tendrils of Agony dealing 24 damage to me.

Sideboard Out - 3 Troll Ascetic, 3 Kird Ape (not sure)
Sideboard In - 4 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Chalice of the Void

Game 2 - I kept a better hand. After laying an first turn Troll Ascetic, I beat face for a while as he built up his hand. I REB'd a Brainstorm and an Ancestral Recall. He was able to play a Yawgmoth's Bargain, with 12 life left. He drew five cards, and passed the turn. This continued for a while, until he was down to one life and still not comboing out. He conceded.

Game 3 - Same as the first game, except that I was able to counter some shit and make him go off a turn slower (3rd turn Tendrils of Agony).

So after a great first match against 4cC, I had proceeded to lose the two after it.

1 - 2 (3 - 4)

Match 4 - Pat - U/G Madness (no Bazaars)

Game 1 - I kept a decent hand. I had some decent burn, and played an early Lavamancer. Staring down a Wild Mongrel, a Basking Rootwalla, and a Wurm was not what the 'mancer had it mind. I promptly lost.

Sideboard Out: 2 Null Rod, 1 Blood Moon
Sideboard In: 3 Red Elemental Blast

Game 2 - This was a close race to the finish. We both mulliganed to five cards. I was able to get down an active Lavamancer, followed by a Rancored River Boa.  I burnt out his creatures, and beat him to the finish with the unblockable Boa.

Game 3 - Angry Monkies are fun. He had a Mongrel, a Rootwalla, and a Aquamoeba on the table. It took some time, but I was able to work through them and get in for the win. Red Elemental Blasts are good when they let you keep an early Troll Ascetic off a Lotus.

2 - 2 (5-5)

Match 5 - Dan - 4cC

Yay! I got to play 4cC again...

Game 1 - Exalted Angel is a bitch. I simply didn't draw enough burn to get rid of it. I had double Kird Ape, but a face-down Angel left alone is a bad thing. I promptly lost once it was flipped up.

Sideboard Out: 4 Fire/Ice, 2 Kird Ape
Sideboard In: 4 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Price of Progress

Game 2 - This time was a little better. I had double REB's. My early Blood Moon was countered (even after drawing others out). A Swords to Plowshares rid me of my River Boa, leaving me a couple of Kird Apes. He hardcast an Exalted Angel, and I was left in topdeck mode. I dropped two Grim Lavamancers, but it wasn't enough. The Angel went all the way.

2 - 3 (5-7)

Match 6 - (I feel bad as this is my only opponent of whom I didn't get their name) - Salvagers Combo

Game 1 - After seeing an early Pyrite Spellbomb, I got working. Blood Moon did bad things to his mana, but he Mystical Tutored for an Enlightened Tutor for a Black Lotus. He then proceeded to Time Walk and win.

Sideboard Out: 2 Troll Ascetic,  2 Kird Ape, 4 Fire/Ice
Sideboard In: 2 Red Elemental Blast, 2 Chalice of the Void, 4 Tormod's Crypt

Game 2 - I was able to drop an early Null Rod. With no way to combo out, he Tinkered for a Darksteel Colossus. I was able to slow it down by a turn with my River Boas. If I had topdecked a Bolt or a Rancor (and had he not had plenty of counters in his hand), the game would have been mine. Sadly, an 11/11 trampler tends to roll over little snakes.

Final: 2 - 4 (5-9)

Overall, it was a good experience. We had 43 people there. I didn't stay, so I don't know what the Top 8 was. I believe that there were two FCG decks, the LongDeath that I played against, and some other stuff.

~MindFlayerMagi

[[supa_t(im)]]

Seems as though the MD Blood Moon only helped in 1 match.  It also seemed as though you needed more burn in a few matches.

What do you think of Blood Moon now that you've used it in a tourney?

Also, do you think you need more burn MD? (since you had trouble burning angels)

One more question:  Did you have enough lavamancer food?

Good report.  You had some tough matchups.  Better luck next time.

[MindFlayerMagi]

To answer some questions:

Blood Moon - Is great. However, I drew it only a few times, and had trouble getting it passed permission (most games I drew it were pre-sideboard). It slaughters 4cC.

Lavamancers - Plenty of food went around. There were typically a critter or two along with a Wasteland, a fetchland and some burn in the board.

Burn - Maybe. I would definitely test the 4cC matchup with some different configurations. The 5 toughness on Angel is the most annoying part.

-------

Also, I have pretty much conclusively found that Troll Ascetic is better than Call of the Herd. It is a must counter for so many decks. If it gets on the board, is almost always stays on the board. I've only had one die a couple times.

~MindFlayerMagi

[[supa_t(im)]]

Is your meta usually full of 4cC, combo, and madness?  Also, was fish absent?

If so, I would remove maybe 1 crypt 1 REB and the POP from the board.  Then relocate the Fire/Ice to the board for Chain Lightning MD (not Magma Jet because angels are bigger then faeries).

That way you can keep your hate MD, still have some answers in the board, and have better quality burn to take out bigger critters better.

Just a thought.

[MindFlayerMagi]

Is your meta usually full of 4cC, combo, and madness? Also, was fish absent?

Sounds about right. I only saw one Fish deck the entire day (was looking around at other matches).

I'm thinking 4 Chalice is good for the board. With only a single 0 cost artifact, I think that it can be good as a quick drop versus combo. A crypt can go. REB's should stay. They simply are too good against Mono-Blue and 4cC. PoP needs some more testing. That was a more last minute decision, so I don't know how much it actually helps.

I'm working with some different burn. Testing is in order for that.

Prevelant decks I saw (at least two towards the end of the tournament):

FCG
Mono-Blue
LongDeath
4cC
Workshop

~MindFlayerMagi

[[supa_t(im)]]

well chalice can kill fish as well, so 4 in the board would be good.  Also can kill FCG if you can get it out for 2 fast enough.

You may want to lose F/I altogether if fish isn't a problem.  Try Chain in their place.  That way a lavamancer and any of your other burn could kill an angel.

Yeah 4 REB should stay if you see a lot of Mono blue.

Why aren't you playing Fish again?