LongDeath

[elriand]

Well i've been playing Longdeath pretty much nonstop since the lists came up after Gencon, and one thing i've found is there is a slight problem with Demonic Consultation. Before anyone flames this, I know the card is good, but in a deck with so many 1 ofs it is very risky and most of them time I casted it I would be searching for a specific one of card to continue going off, or would much rather have another draw7 or perhaps another wish.

So my question is this, is Demonic Consultation nececassary in LongDeath? What could it be replaced with?

So far I'm thinking that either Living Wish or Frantic Search would be good in this slot. Living Wish would allow an additional way of getting around Null Rods and other hosers with Goblin Welder as well as for allowing recurring Memory Jar to set up for a game breaking Yawgmoth's Will in any long games. The free card draw of Frantic Search would also benefit the deck greatly, because oftentimes untapping one color producing mana source will mean the difference between going off or not.

[BreathWeapon]

No, absolutely not. Demonic Consultation is one of the most potent cards in the entire deck. Its drawbacks are negligible if used appropriately. It is an integral part of the deck, take it from the word of a player who was too blind to realize this when he first picked up the deck.

[Necrologia]

Living Wish has no place in Deathlong. If you want another answer to Null Rod play some Hurkyl's Recalls main. At the very least they help you generate mana and storm count. Living Wish on the other hand is dead unless you need an answer, and since this is a combo deck is should be playing threats, not reactive cards.

Consultation is an amazing card. It seems rather risky to consult for a 1 of, but the odds of removing it are rather slim. If nothing else it can fetch an extra land eot to get you that 1 extra mana you need to go off. If the card is removed, too bad. You would have lost anyway. That is why you consulted for a 1 of right?

[everythingitouchdies]

You may not cast consultation every game, because you will find plenty of situations where you dont need it. It has bad synergy when looking for a one of. But usually you are not consulting for a one of, instead you are seeking death wish, which finds an answer more effectively than living wish for the most part.

Null rod (in all of its phallic shaped wonder) is an obnoxious card, and it makes the main deck inclusion of Hurkyl's Recall necessary. Recall also answers COTV for the most part. The reason for it being the maindeck answer is that it doubles as a combo piece if you dont need it for defense, adding to your storm count by replaying your artifacts. Running one or two maindeck and another in the sideboard is a sound play.

A while ago I removed crop rotation from my build of this deck. I (mis)assessed it as the weakest card in the build, and yet time walk remained in the deck. Crop rotation adds to the set up of the combo. Time Walk does not (at least in the sense of I want to win this turn.)

How imperative is Time Walk in DeathLong? I have cut it from other combo decks in the past and never looked back, and am prepared to do so here as well.

EITD

[g0tenks00]

True, time walk does not help when going off. It is a 1U sorcery and you'd rather cast hurkyl's recall if you're paying 1U. But barring that, there are times when the card is good simply as utility, it allows you an additional draw, and this I think is enough to warrant keeping it in the deck.

Demonic consultation is totally necessary to the deck, as you said. Consulting for a 1-of is most often not a good idea. You want to be consulting for a death wish or a dark ritual to produce additional mana to give you steam while going off. The only 1-of I find acceptable to consult for is tendrils when you want to just end it. However this is even questionable because you can easily remove it in the first 6 cards, and then you lose. Granted this will not happen every time you consult for it, and I think you will win more games doing this than losing to removing tendrils as one of the first six cards.

[KitzuneNinja]

How imperative is Time Walk in DeathLong? I have cut it from other combo decks in the past and never looked back, and am prepared to do so here as well.

One turn of setting up and disrupting oponent (duressing) + Time Walk = Good.

When playing combo, especially stuff like TPS and DeathLong, you dont have to desperatly combo out *this* turn if you know you get the next one as well.

[everythingitouchdies]

When playing combo, especially stuff like TPS and DeathLong, you dont have to desperatly combo out *this* turn if you know you get the next one as well.

I understand that Time Walk is good, but you could say the same thing about dragon... Draw an extra card, use bazaar, then animate, but you simply dont play Time Walk in dragon because it doesnt really help you win.

I feel the same way about Time Walk in DeathLong. Its good enough, but it doesnt aid the win directly and therefore is replaceable. Perhaps the way to debate this is by looking at what you would put in its place.

If I am not mistaken, Carl Winter cut Crop Rotation for a 2nd Maindeck Hurkyl's Recall at Waterbury. I agree with the decision to cut for Hurkyl's Recall, and two works really well, but instead of cutting a card that aids in comboing, why not cut one that doesnt?

EITD

[Godot]

I understand that Time Walk is good, but you could say the same thing about dragon... Draw an extra card, use bazaar, then animate, but you simply dont play Time Walk in dragon because it doesnt really help you win.

In D-Long however, it does help you win.  For 1U you get a card that says:
"Untap your lands. Draw a card. You may play an additional land."  
The combo in Dragon is cheap enough and redundant enough that extra untap step/land and card arent that great of a boon, but in D-Long they are.  Mana is at such a premium in this deck that getting the extra land drop and having access to all your mana after spending a turn setting up with Brainstorm, clearing the way with a Duress, or even Wishing for the win is HUGE.  Furthermore, the deck is so chock full of brokenness that the extra card has a much greater chance of being gamebreaking than an extra draw in Dragon.   Additionally, the strength of being able to play multiple threats against control without giving them the time to untap and further their own gameplan cant be underestimated.

With a deck as fast and broken as D-Long Time Walk plays a much bigger role than it does in a deck like Dragon where the combo is cheaper and more resilient.

[Dante]

Going back to his demonic consultation question - you're typically consulting for either Death Wish or Dark Ritual.

don't forget that once you remove a portion of your deck, you now have a lot more Death Wish targets.

Bill

[elriand]

Well Living Wish is not the way to go, unless it's put in place of Crop Rotation and Academy moved to the board, but I really don't think that's a good idea.

I tested some more and Frantic Search doesn't seem to get the job done either.

What does everyone think of Moonring Mirror? In a way it is slightly similiar to Necropotence and also similiar to Memory Jar, but in no way as good as the real things. If you don't know what it does here it is:

Moonring Mirror          5
Artifact
Whenever you draw a card remove the top card of your library from the game face down.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may remove your hand from the game face down. If you do, put into your hand all other cards you own removed from the game with Moonring Mirror.

The way I look at it is that you Tinker it out, play a draw7, remove the top 7 cards in your library from the game, play all relevant cards from your new hand, say go. Remove the useless hand from the game to draw the removed 7.

I'm still unsure about Demonic Consultation, but can't really think of any good replacements that actually put the card into your hand.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Well Living Wish is not the way to go, unless it's put in place of Crop Rotation and Academy moved to the board, but I really don't think that's a good idea.

I tested some more and Frantic Search doesn't seem to get the job done either.

What does everyone think of Moonring Mirror? In a way it is slightly similiar to Necropotence and also similiar to Memory Jar, but in no way as good as the real things. If you don't know what it does here it is:

Moonring Mirror          5
Artifact
Whenever you draw a card remove the top card of your library from the game face down.
At the beginning of your upkeep, you may remove your hand from the game face down. If you do, put into your hand all other cards you own removed from the game with Moonring Mirror.

The way I look at it is that you Tinker it out, play a draw7, remove the top 7 cards in your library from the game, play all relevant cards from your new hand, say go. Remove the useless hand from the game to draw the removed 7.

I'm still unsure about Demonic Consultation, but can't really think of any good replacements that actually put the card into your hand.

Wouldn't you just rather Tinker out Colossus or Jar?

[elriand]

in most instances yes, but it just provides another choice. especially if u don't run colossus in the main or have already played/have in hand memory jar.

[Apollyon]

How is delaying your draw in a combo deck good? The only time that drawing later is a good idea is with Necropotence.

In case you are wondering, Necropotence reads:
Enchantment
BBB
Pay some arbitrary amount of life: you win the game next turn.

Moonring doesn't say that, it says "Skip your draw, and you can choose to get it later". The only time that this card would be marginally useful is in combination with Memory Jar, and it's not worth cutting Consultation for a 5 mana card whose use is either bad or marginal at best.

If I've already used my Jar, and I have a Tinker, I'd just get some artifact mana, such as a Lotus. If I need draw, that's too bad, because Tinker doesn't get draw outside of Jar. I most definitely wouldn't get Moonring Mirror if I had already used my Jar, because instead of being in topdeck mode, I'm in delayed topdeck mode, where I draw cards a turn late.

[Purple Hat]

death long doesn't really have a use for a card that draws it stuff next turn and drawing only every other card would frequently be detrimental given the number of 1-of's in the deck.

Constult is broken in Death long.  If you don't know why you're using it incorrectly.  There are generally 3 things worth consulting for in death long: Dark Ritual and Death wish have both been mentioned but no one has brought up consult for DURESS.  Frequently you can go off but you need a duress just to be sure.  Consult gets you the piece you need, NOW.

Hale

[elriand]

i wasn't saying cut consultation for the mirror, just thinking the mirror had some possibilities. maybe the mirror belongs in another deck, not this one.

the reason that i was arguing against consultation was because the only real targets you can go for are: wish, ritual, land, brainstorm,  and duress. i dont think i'd ever cast it for a land, usually it is cast for a wish, but oftentimes i already have the wish and its just a dead card. don't get me wrong, i know demonic consultation is a good card, but the point of this thread was to try to find something that can find wish/other cards a bit more efficiently (even if at the cost of another 1-2 mana).

[BreathWeapon]

I absolutely H8 Time Walk in Death Long, with an 11 Card Land Count the chances of seeing a hand with Walk +2 Land is weak. When not used as acceleration, it's only very randomly useful.

Arguably, I think even Mox Diamond>Time Walk. Atleast the Diamond is consistant at accelerating the deck after your first D7.

I like to think of Time Walk as a Frantic Search that sets your Storm Count to 0.

That's just me tho'.

[JDawg13]

the point of this thread was to try to find something that can find wish/other cards a bit more efficiently (even if at the cost of another 1-2 mana).

Demonic Consultation is about as efficient a search card as you can get, seeing as every other decent tutor is already being used.  Not to mention the fact that it would be impossible for a card to cost more mana AND be more efficient.  That's just a contradictory idea, especially in a deck like DeathLong that wants to make the best use out of it's mana that it possibly can.

[AngryPheldagrif]

Time Walk in combo is just weak. I took it out of my Draw-7 monthes ago. It's just useless, and Hurkyl's Recall is better in the spot.

-Dan

[elriand]

the point of this thread was to try to find something that can find wish/other cards a bit more efficiently (even if at the cost of another 1-2 mana).

Demonic Consultation is about as efficient a search card as you can get, seeing as every other decent tutor is already being used.  Not to mention the fact that it would be impossible for a card to cost more mana AND be more efficient.  That's just a contradictory idea, especially in a deck like DeathLong that wants to make the best use out of it's mana that it possibly can.

should have clarified on what type of efficiency, what i'm looking for is something that cuts the mana efficiency of consultation for the efficiency of not removing large chunks of your library from the game and gains the flexibility of being able to search for a non 4 of card w/o the risk of decking yourself.

[Apollyon]

i wasn't saying cut consultation for the mirror, just thinking the mirror had some possibilities. maybe the mirror belongs in another deck, not this one.

No, Mirror is a terrible card. There is no reason to draw later. Pursuit of Knowledge is a better card, and Pursuit doesn't see any play, so why should Moonring Mirror?

As to finding a replacement for Consultation, if you have the Death Wish, what are you looking for? And just as importantly, why don't you Wish for Yawgmoth's Will and win the game?

I like to think of Time Walk as a Frantic Search that sets your Storm Count to 0.

Have you had problems with getting a storm count of 10? I haven't yet, after a decent amount of testing.

the reason that i was arguing against consultation was because the only real targets you can go for are: wish, ritual, land, brainstorm, and duress.

There is always Consulting for the desperation Lotus to win the game. I don't really see a problem with any of those, to be honest. Tinker costs 2U and an artifact, and only gets Jar, Lotus, LED, Vault, Crypt, or a Sol Ring, yet you aren't arguing for the exclusion of Tinker.

Yes, usually Consultation is a dead draw, but the times that it is needed, it shows why it deserves to be on the Restricted List.

[JDawg13]

the point of this thread was to try to find something that can find wish/other cards a bit more efficiently (even if at the cost of another 1-2 mana).

Demonic Consultation is about as efficient a search card as you can get, seeing as every other decent tutor is already being used.  Not to mention the fact that it would be impossible for a card to cost more mana AND be more efficient.  That's just a contradictory idea, especially in a deck like DeathLong that wants to make the best use out of it's mana that it possibly can.

should have clarified on what type of efficiency, what i'm looking for is something that cuts the mana efficiency of consultation for the efficiency of not removing large chunks of your library from the game and gains the flexibility of being able to search for a non 4 of card w/o the risk of decking yourself.

I'm pretty sure there isn't anything that could possibly replace Consultation.  I just did a quick search of tutor effects, and everything is either horribly overcosted (Diabolic Tutor), or way too conditional (Diabolic Intent, Rhystic Tutor).  Consultation may not get you everything, but it gets you enough of the important cards in your deck at an incredibly low mana cost that it is the best/most efficient tutor for the spot.

[Apollyon]

should have clarified on what type of efficiency, what i'm looking for is something that cuts the mana efficiency of consultation for the efficiency of not removing large chunks of your library from the game and gains the flexibility of being able to search for a non 4 of card w/o the risk of decking yourself.

Consult for something that you need to win, and win. So what if you lose a chunk of your library if you are Consulting for something that will win the game? Winning is usually the optimal play, in my experiences.

Don't forget, you also run the risk of removing all 4 of a card that you can run 4-ofs. The possibility is small, but it's still there. It's a risky tutor, but it's the 2nd most efficient for winning now. Don't forget, you don't play this deck because it's a solid choice, you play this deck because it is broken.

[TheIneffable]

"Skip your draw, and you can choose to get it later".

Moonring Mirror seems more like an awful version of Phyrexian Arena. You get an extra card each turn but only at the cost of setting your entire hand aside for a turn to get that card. Sure it gets you a random Death Wish target each turn from your deck but Phyrexian Arena doesn't see play and neither should this.

[Apollyon]

Oh, I misread the card, I thought it was a replacement effect, like it was originally posted on the MTGnews spoiler before the prerelease. It's still terrible, but it's less terrible now. It's a reverse Jar now, which still makes it  worse than Pursuit of Knowledge which draws 7 cards immediately instead of having to wait.

[Jacob Orlove]

This thread totally belongs in newbie. It's all about answering basic questions.

[elriand]

i copied the text on the card exactly from the one i got at the prerelease. you dont have to have a draw7 to make it good, thats just the best way to use it as it can turn a draw 7 into a draw 7 that you play again during your next turn. note that you have the face down pile and your hand. during your draw you draw as normal, you just add an additional card to the pile everytime you do draw a card. during your upkeep you can choose to switch these piles. this switch is permanent until your next upkeep when you can switch them back.

[Apollyon]

Are you having persistent enough problems with Draw7s that using a bad Draw7 that does nothing on its own is a good idea? If so, you either need to shuffle more or play a different deck.

I goldfish this deck at turn 1 or 2. Never later than 3. So a 5 mana slow Ancestral doesn't really excite me in terms of being good for this deck. If I wanted this ability, I'd run Pursuit of Knowledge. But I run neither, and my testing shows that neither are necessary.

There is no real reason to run a card that is either terrible or win-more, depending on the situation.

[PipOC]

Moonring doesn't say that, it says "Skip your draw, and you can choose to get it later". The only time that this card would be marginally useful is in combination with Memory Jar, and it's not worth cutting Consultation for a 5 mana card whose use is either bad or marginal at best.

Moonring mirror doesn do that, it removes cards from the game when you draw so next upkeep you can have more cards.  Now the card is still quite horrible I'm just clarifying what it does.

[giddygorgon]

ok, i really started getting angry when i was playing this deck because tinker just seemed like it wasn't getting me what i needed very often. My solution, i cut time walk, which i feel is very useless and added DSC, it gives you a very good tinker target if you don't think you can combo out, and if you do tahink you can combo out then you should just get memory jar instead.

[BreathWeapon]

Are you waiting a turn to use Memory Jar, or are you trying to go off immediately? It makes a really big difference.

As far as DSC goes, I haven't found it useful vs any deck other than Fish. Hurkyl's is the better MD Slot, it deals with Trinisphere, Rod, Chalice and can generate additional Storm and Mana. DSC is more of a TPS card, because it has FoW to protect it vs removal.