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Author Topic: Aztec Flavour Summary  (Read 8730 times)
Ephraim
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« on: September 26, 2004, 12:01:56 am »

I'm creating this thread for the discussion of the various thematic elements that may go into the Aztec flavoured set. Here, we can develop the characters, the tribes, the colour foci, etc... If you have ideas or if you're aware of concrete changes that resulted from discussions elsewhere, please post them here.

Here is what has been discussed so far (to the best of my knowledge):

There are at least two primary gods that will be the focus of the set. These two gods are twins and there is a bitter feud between them. The first is Quiacatl, a B/G deity. Quiacatl specializes in poison and so there will be a heavy focus on poison counters within black and green. As a B/G deity, some of Quiacatl's associated spells will deal with the dichotomy of fecundity and decay.

The second god is Horzatl, a R/W deity. As Quiacatl's opposite, Horzatl will be a god of cleansing and vengeance. Spells associated with Horzatl will punish your opponent for giving you poison counters. I also have in the works a card somewhat like Leeches that will be characteristic of Horzatl. Where creatures associated with Quiacatl will tend to have a grim, spiritual  flavour, creatures associated with Horzatl will be more millitaristic and down-to-earth.

Blue will be something of a neutral ground for this set. In general, it will represent the deceit, trickery, and skulduggery of the two feuding gods. The spells will represent the machinations of the gods and the creatures will tend to be weird mutants, shaped by the gods to fight in their war or for the purposes of amusement, punishment, or spite.
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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2004, 04:56:05 am »

Some additional information:

- I thought of the theme because of the art on Ancestral Recall. This theme was touched upon by this piece of art but sadly never revisited.

- The theme would focus on the Xolot tribe (an Aztec/Mayan/Totec/Inca-like people) on a distant plane. The mythology will NOT directly refer to existing earth mythology but there will be deities with similar-sounding names, similarities in architecture and common practices etc.

- Their main gods, Quiacatl and Horzatl, are brothers. There are not strictly at war with eathother, but there are two major groups of Xolot consider a different one to be of greater importance, which may lead to tension.

- Their peaceful, human-sacrificing culture is on the brink of destruction because a Conquistadores-like army called the 'Colonists' is invading their territories. Legends on this side will have Spanish-sounding names and general abilities will refer subtly to the Spanish post-medieval army and culture.

- The gods of the Xolot people, as well as the one the Colonists worship, may (or may not) end up being planeswalkers for a deeper connection to the overall m:tg storyline.

- Possibilities for card design include Xolot warriors and priests that belong to orders of either god. There could be equipment that interacts with Poison counters and there could be atifact stuff like Stone Calendars. Also, I envision a subtype of land called Temple (possibly depicting piramids and the like). There will be no problems with basic lands as all types of terrain are prevalent on the Xolot territory. Additionally, the colors will not be confined to races. Both the Xolot and the Colonists will have access to personalities and spells of different colors (though there will be a certain preference).
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« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2004, 04:01:34 pm »

I think the 'colonists' idea is awful. It's far more interesting to imagine what life would have been like had the Aztecs never come into contact with Europeans. Like in the Stargate movie, but with Aztec-land replacing Egypt.

I'm going to work on the details of the plane (like geography). Will report later.
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Ephraim
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« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2004, 04:07:16 pm »

I suppose that precedent holds that "godly" characters are planeswalkers or greater. (Gaea, for example, is actually a goddess. I believe Freyalise cites Gaea as the source of her power.) Anyhow, even if we do decide to make Quiacatl and Horzatl into planeswalkers, there's always the possibility of creating appropriate enchantments, viz:

Horzatl's Preservation
{2}{W}{W}
Enchantment

You can't lose the game as a result of having ten or more poison counters.
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« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2004, 05:05:58 pm »

Quote
I think the 'colonists' idea is awful. It's far more interesting to imagine what life would have been like had the Aztecs never come into contact with Europeans. Like in the Stargate movie, but with Aztec-land replacing Egypt.


But then who'd they fight? I want my colonists :*-(
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<j_orlove> the half that tells me how to live my life
<j_orlove> but not the half that tells me how others should live theirs

R.I.P. Rudy van Soest a.k.a. MoreFling
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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2004, 07:42:10 pm »

Well the Aztecs were at war with eachother pretty much permanantly so I don't think they have a problem finding people to fight.
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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2004, 08:22:04 pm »

This all sounds well and good, but what about creature types? So far, it seems that all that's been covered is humans. Somehow, I think we will have to incorporate other sentient creatures or the flavor will get stale really fast. We don't want just another Urza/Mishra rip off, right?
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« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2004, 08:41:35 pm »

I've specified the class of the creatures I've created thus far: cleric, shaman, etc... There's no reason why they must be humans, though.  Although WotC has already given us "viashino" as a creature type, I don't see why we couldn't create our own race of anthropomorphic lizards. They would probably be a good fit for many of the green and black creatures that would follow Quiacatl. On the other side, some of the followers of Horzatl could be...apes. It's been a while since they did a lot of apes. Or, those could be switched around, since Apes and Lizards are both creature types typically characteristic of red and green.
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« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2004, 09:20:28 pm »

Derivations of creatures that are native to central and southern america are all quite relevent to Aztec/Mayan/Incan mythos. Lizard and Snake people in particular, as well as giant insects, large cats, and killer plants!
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« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2004, 09:29:10 pm »

I wanted to avoid species that had been recently used, though. Snakes are being done right now, Insects were prevalent throughout Oddysey and Onlaught. Cats were present in Mirrodin. It'd be good to use something new.
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« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2004, 09:36:28 pm »

Well non-wall plants haven't been done too often. Fish such as piranahs etc could also feature, although being able to do-away with islandhome might be tricky.

The cats done recently have mostly been the sentient lionin who were generally white. The cats I had in mind are more of a beastly type who would probably be green. Lizardmen would be a good black/green creature type. Apes green/red. Plants black/green. Fish blue. Humans could probably cover most of the red creatures as well as white.
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« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2004, 10:36:07 pm »

I was thinking humans could be everywhere. Priests that sacrifice people would be black, for instance.
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« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2004, 01:34:26 am »

Why not just get rid of "humans" altogether? The human creature type is garbage anyway, and there is no reason why priests and things have to be human.

Another thing we could do is have Elemental as one of the big creature types. Huacas, for example was the Incan term for "numerous gods of nature", which is relatively similar.

You can read about them and other Aztec/Incan stuff at the Encyclopedia Mythica at http://www.pantheon.org/articles/h/huacas.html[/url][/quote]
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I know this won't happen in a tournament, but if my opponent has Chaos Orb in his hand while I'm controlling his turn from a Mindslaver, who flips the card if I force him to play it and activate it?

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« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2004, 04:24:41 am »

My take on this:

Red and white are the perfect colours for a sun god.
Black and green are the perfect colours for the god who holds the power of life and death.

Hence Horzatl's followers build mighty ziggurats which rise out of the forest canopy. They always want to be as close to the sun as possible. They have an obsession with mirrors (to reflect light) and eclipses.
They perform human sacrifices/cremations on top of their ziggurats.

Quiacatl's followers are secretive, tending underground graveyards/catacombs hidden deep in the jungle. Whenever anybody is born or dies, these guys somehow know about it and emerge to take away the body or to bless the new baby.
The only bodies they don't take away are the ones cremated by Horzatl's followers.


And I agree with Matt - I don't like the idea of having spanish colonists. Part of the concept of the set (as I understood it) was that we would see "life as normal" in this world, instead of us turning up just when everything had changed.
(I don't like the way every other card in Kamigawa says "Originally, these Kami were really nice and friendly. During the war, they were nasty"...)
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« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2004, 05:42:57 am »

Quote
Well the Aztecs were at war with eachother pretty much permanantly

No they weren't. They just conquered and asssimilated a shitload of other mesoamerican cuntures. They were like the south american Borg. There was little or no infighting. We NEED an ominous enemy for a set. The interesting twist is that in this case, the ominous enemy (the Colonists) actually sees the Xolot as the ominous enemy. The absence of a clear right and wrong really clicks with the fact that creature types are not tied to colors.

Yes, there will be humans. There will be lots of humans. And clerics. Waariors, priest, shamans and wizards. We could even have tetradotoxin ('zombie powder')-induced zombies. And that's just on the Xolot side. God only know what kind of villainous scum the Colonists bring to our peaceful lands. As for other sentient creatures: there will be spirits, incarnations, avantars and possibly even actual gods. All tied in to the theme. Ofcourse we could have numerous non-sentient creature types like hounds etc. to boot. I just don't see why ever set needs to have shit like goblins and merfolk and stuff.

Quote
Part of the concept of the set (as I understood it) was that we would see "life as normal" in this world, instead of us turning up just when everything had changed.

A compromise that's nevber really been done before: the first set in the block could introduce the Xolot people, their gods and their way of life. The second set sees the Colonists attempting to conquer their lands. The third set makes clear who the winner is...and this timne 'round, it won't be the colonists Smile

Heck, I could probably write a small novel about this...
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<j_orlove> I am semi-religious
<BR4M> I like that. which half of god do you believe in?
<j_orlove> the half that tells me how to live my life
<j_orlove> but not the half that tells me how others should live theirs

R.I.P. Rudy van Soest a.k.a. MoreFling
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« Reply #15 on: September 27, 2004, 06:23:32 am »

No they weren't. Yes they were. No they weren't. Blah blah blah.

The Aztecs were constantly infighting, for one, to quell repeated rebellion from the many villages/tribes they conquered. There was lots of rebellion against the Aztecs who had not only conquered a sizable portion of Central America (at one time controlling an empire more populous than Australia currently is), but who also were very big on sacrificing large quantities of their subjugated people to their gods.

Also the Aztecs were still at war with several other "themeatically" similar nations such as the Tlaxcalans who eventually became the prime suppliers of information and translators for the invading Spanish.
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2004, 08:16:11 am »

If the colonists are used, would it be the advent of firearms in Magic (musket, cannon and flintlock pistol)?  

It could make for some interesting artifacts and equipment.
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« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2004, 08:37:21 am »

Firearms were present in Portal: the second age. The Alaborn nation had muskets at the very least. Look at all of the cards with "Alaborn" in their name. Most of them have a firearm of some sort featured in the artwork. In my opinion, we should not allow the conquistadores to have firearms. In truth, I don't like the idea of conquistadores to begin with. I think if we need to have combat, we could use pirates/slavers instead of conquistadores. Those would definitely be blue in flavour, to boot, filling up a hole in the current setup.
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« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2004, 09:20:33 am »

@Brendan:

What you describe is:
1. exactly what I said (quarrels with subjugated populace) and,
2. not an example of the 'aztecs being at war with eachother' as you stated.
Since we at least appear to agree about this, let's just drop it.

@Ephraim: the Colonist could definitely have a piraty flavor, yes. Let's not forget the Conquistadores were little more than an organized band of scum, too.
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<j_orlove> I am semi-religious
<BR4M> I like that. which half of god do you believe in?
<j_orlove> the half that tells me how to live my life
<j_orlove> but not the half that tells me how others should live theirs

R.I.P. Rudy van Soest a.k.a. MoreFling
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« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2004, 09:40:21 am »

Quote from: Ephraim
Firearms were present in Portal: the second age. The Alaborn nation had muskets at the very least. Look at all of the cards with "Alaborn" in their name. Most of them have a firearm of some sort featured in the artwork.


I did not know this; I don't think I've ever looked at a Portal card.

I see no reason to disallow firearms.  When kept at a low technological level it can still be mixed well with fantasy, and would provide a nice juxtoposition with the Aztecish natives.  A lot better then the fantasy mechs of Invasion block.

It's also a nice change of pace to have the "good guys" be dark skined primatives and the "bad guys" white skined gun (or gunne) toting ship builders who are the real savages.
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« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2004, 11:28:38 am »

#1. The white/red god should be the god of the sun, as it is obvious that the sun embodies both fire and light.
#2. Instead of colonists, how about blue are a group of neutral planetravelers, who could be looking for a place to stay after becoming refugees from their plane. The good thing about this is that they ARE totally neutral, because there is an allied and enemy color on each of the "teams". They should be caught between the warring sides, and forced to fend for themselves.
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« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2004, 11:56:22 am »

Quote
Instead of colonists, how about blue are a group of neutral planetravelers, who could be looking for a place to stay


That sounds like the definition of a "colonist" to me. Smile

How about if the planeswalkers' arrival completely messes up the natives' civilisation, by accident? They start clearing areas of jungle to create homes for themselves, messing up the natives' mana supply. They try to "rescue" some of Horzatl's sacrifices; they unwittingly dig up Quiacatl's catacombs...

Needlesss to say, the natives are angry about this; the planeswalkers find themselves attacked both by the police or whatever from their own plane, and by the aztecs, at the same time.
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« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2004, 12:45:31 pm »

Edit: merged, because there are fewer poison cards than I thought there were.

Poison is a terrible, terrible mechanic. It either replaces damage as your primary route to victory, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, then poison cards will all be really bad, with the possible exception of putting them all together in a degenerate block constructed deck. Making a bunch of cards that don't interact with the rest of magic is AWFUL. This has been the perennial problem with magic blocks, and it is a problem that we need to nip in the bud.

If, however, poison becomes prevalent enough to replace dealing damage to the opponent, then you have fundamentally changed the game of magic. For example, cards that deal damage to your opponent are nearly worthless in such an environment, because they do not bring him closer to 10 poison counters. So do we cost such cards cheaply? Doing so would destroy the set's interaction with the rest of the game.

Likewise, combat tricks become irrelevant. In fact, creatures themselves may become significantly less important, changing the value of creature removal.

Poison cards will fluctuate greatly in power based entirely on how relevant poison is to the game. If we keep poison from dominating the set, then all the poison cards we make will be worthless.

I am completely opposed to using poison counters as a mechanic in any way whatsoever. If you want to keep that theme, find other mechanics to express it.
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« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2004, 12:47:29 pm »

They only replace creatures attacking and blocking if 1. most/all of the creatures in the set give poison counters and 2. the issuance of poison counters is reliant solely on attacking/dealing combat damage. 1 should certainly not be the case. While poison counters will be prevalent, they will not make up the entirety of the set. I've been trying to avoid 2, so that poison counters will be a victory condition parallel to combat damage, not one that replaces it.
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« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2004, 12:57:55 pm »

My point was that if you can give poison counters without an attack phase, then  attack phases won't be used. That's an entire phase of the game, and it's part of the reason magic works. It's simple, it's elegant, and it's endlessly flexible. Poison replaces all that with a clunky system that still leaves you with 20 now-irrelevant life points.

Poison counters will replace combat damage BY being parallel to it. That was my point.
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« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2004, 02:06:20 pm »

I've told you how I feel about this and I think you got the gist of it in our IRC conversation.

Summary:

- yes, poison is odd and dangerous and should be kept a close eye on for various reasons.

- this 'hot new poison thing' will die out and people will lose interest as they did with every hot mechanic before it (this thing is not 'changing the face of the CC forum and/or the game' permanently).

- there is no reason for this thread not to be in the Aztec flavor thread. I will not move a fellow moderator's thread but ask kindly that you place it where it belongs.

Jacob: Thank you for moving it here. I do not oppose the discussion, but I feel this is the appropriate place. - Bram

- I disagree with your explicit wishes to order people to stop creating cards based on poison and/or refusing to discuss or add them by default because:
a. addition to the Master Thread isn't the definitive selection process for our set, and
b. it reeks of censorship which I don't like outside of Unglued.
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« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2004, 06:37:42 pm »

I think Mayan civilization is a lot cooler than Aztecs. They were a lot more obsessed with time, for instance, and that would open a bevy of card opportunities (Time Warp would make a cool reprint).
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« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2004, 06:42:07 pm »

Indeed it is. I actually even considered a possibility for an artifact time walk-like thing (a Stone Calendar).

Mayan civilisation as a whole is more interesting, yes. That's part of the reason I've been kind of mixing Aztec / Totec / Mayan / Inca stuff together and see what happens. I use inspiration from all of those. It's an eclectic thing, really.
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<j_orlove> I am semi-religious
<BR4M> I like that. which half of god do you believe in?
<j_orlove> the half that tells me how to live my life
<j_orlove> but not the half that tells me how others should live theirs

R.I.P. Rudy van Soest a.k.a. MoreFling
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« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2004, 09:28:48 am »

Well, Jacob Orlove has brought up a serious and vehement disapproval of all things having to do with poison counters. Having already started several such cards myself and not having been privy to his discussions with Bram, I'd like to prompt some more discussion on the matter. If it's really a bad idea, I'd like to nip it in the bud right now, before I or anybody else creates many more cards that deal with poison counters. On the other hand, I think were were some poison counter ideas that could actually work: namely, cards that require you to have poison counters on yourself or to remove them from an opponent to be effective. If we encourage people to have poison counters or to remove them from their opponents, we generate tension with the win-condition aspect of poison counters.
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« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2004, 09:41:08 am »

I don't like the poison mechanic.  I never did.

I'm 100% with Jacob's arguments.
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