U/G Oath

[Rico Suave]

I meant resolving an Oath can prove troublesome.  Against Control Slaver or 4cc it will be easier due to the fact that they have less than or the same number of counters as you have, giving you a decent chance to get Oath out.  Obviously, I've already said my thoughts on the Mono-U match-up.  I think control will be the hardest match-up considering they can provoke a counter war over Oath.  Against some control builds I think you will actually have winning chances (Control Slaver), but on the whole, I think you'll find that control (and prison) will be the hardest group of decks to beat.

If you resolve a single Oath, mono-U is pretty much screwed.  At least 4cc, Tog, Control Slaver, and other decks can recover even if you manage to resolve it.

You can easily just go first turn land, mox, Oath and they only have 4 possible counters...which is the same you have.  

Oath is near-slaver proof.

Have you ever even been slaved using this deck?  If you have Cog out, all they need to do is simply use Oath and you lose even before the draw step.  2 Slaves in a row with Oath out and you're guaranteed dead, on top of all the other fun things Mindslaver will make your deck do.

I don't know where you got the idea that your deck is near-slaver proof.  You'll have to explain where you're coming from more, because I just don't see it.

[freakish777]

If you resolve a single Oath, mono-U is pretty much screwed.  At least 4cc, Tog, Control Slaver, and other decks can recover even if you manage to resolve it.

You can easily just go first turn land, mox, Oath and they only have 4 possible counters...which is the same you have.

Not quite...

1. That assumes that you have the following in hand:

random mox, Forbidden Orchard, Oath (obviously possible, but not as likely as one would think, even if mulliganing accordingly).  That leaves space for 4 cards.  One of which you're claiming could be Force of Will and another of which would have to be a blue card (The same holds true for Unmask + random black card, in a build resembling Spoils Mask).  The problem is either Force of Will in that hand, or having the other blue card in hand.  Statistically they are more likely (granted, it may be a small percentage chance more) to be able to cast Force of Will then you are in this situation.  I don't exactly want to get into what the exact numbers are, I'll let you test that on your own and see why this is the case, or if I'm wrong, call me on it with the actual statistics.

2.  That assumes that you have won the die roll:

If you haven't then they have good chances of going "land + random mox, go" having set up Mana Leak as well to deal with your Oath in addition to a possible Force of Will (or even "land + Mox Sapphire, go" holding drain).

If you are substituting in a different land for Orchard, fine, but keep in mind that they may find and activate either Powder Keg or Engineered Explosives (which I don't think is a bad card for Mono-U considering they can use their moxen to get an off color mana fairly easily) before you can find Orchard.

Even with mulliganing aggresively I'm positive that this match is heavily in Mono-U's favor.

[Thug]

I haven't seen a Mono-U build running EE yet, (and I don'T think I ever will) and powder Keg doesn't take care of Enchantments. With that oin mind it shouldn't be too hard to understand the point he was making.

And he wasn't claiming you always have a FoW in hand, he was just pointing out you have as much free counters (FoW's) as they do, so the changes of them having one and you not having one are prett slim (±20%)

Koen

[dromar]

I haven't seen a Mono-U build running EE yet, (and I don'T think I ever will)

Yeah, I think keg is a little more versatile when you only have one color at your disposal. I think he might have meant for EE to be used in the Oath deck, since it has Forbidden Orchard and a couple colors already, in order to combat chalice for 2 and other annoying permanents.

[freakish777]

I haven't seen a Mono-U build running EE yet, (and I don'T think I ever will) and powder Keg doesn't take care of Enchantments. With that oin mind it shouldn't be too hard to understand the point he was making.

And he wasn't claiming you always have a FoW in hand, he was just pointing out you have as much free counters (FoW's) as they do, so the changes of them having one and you not having one are prett slim (±20%)

Koen

On Keg:  My mistake, have to read know my board sweepers a bit better (not as familiar with Keg, due to not having run it, it's my opinion that its far too slow).

On Force of Will:  I know what he meant, but my statement is that regardless of the fact that you both have the same number of free counters, the chances that you will have yours and be able to use it, are less then the chances that they will have their's and be able to use it considering there are mandatorily 3 other slots in your hand being used up.  You have 4 slots to have both Force of Will and a card to pitch to it with, while they have 7 cards with which to have a Force of Will and a card to pitch to it.  My point was that statistically the Mono-U player has the better chances.

On Engineered Explosives:  Yes, I'm aware that it cannot be used to it's fullest extent in Mono-U, however I think it should be atleast tested in place of Powder Keg because it gets rid of your opponents 0 and 1 cost problem cards with extreme ease (Welder, Moxen [if they have more Moxen then you], Lavamancer, Curiosity, Skullclamp, Gorilla Shaman, Soldier/Wurm Tokens, Rootwalla, Xantid Swarm, Goblin Lackey, etc), and relatively easily gets rid of your opponents problematic 2 casting cost cards when you have an off color moxen on the board (which should be fairly frequently).  The drawback is not being ensured you can take something out, the pay off is the ability to take it out at instant speed, as well as take out enchantments (Chains of Mephistopheles, Oath, Curiosity should it be on something not normally run in Fish).

In any event, if anyone is still uncertain of my claim (about the percentages) then I'll try and get you numbers by the weekend.

[timmy]

I believe that the best way to beat mono U is not to go aggro on them but rather to let them stop your first oath and then try to force through a game breaker against them, chains of mephistopheles if your running black, if your running red, ReB should be enough beat them.  As for the u/g deck, well you lose a lot, however it does have a bit more game against aggro because its mana base is stabiler.

[Rico Suave]

@freakish777:
When going 1st, even assuming you don't get a land + Mox you can just drop land, land, Oath.  For every time they'd get a Mana Leak opening, you'd get a first turn Oath opening so for basic purposes it evens out.

When going 2nd:
You can still play first turn land + Mox, and if not then just play the control game. ;P

My point is that you can turbo-win whereas they can't, and at the WORST scenario you have to slow play your win and then you're even.  Big whoop.  

Oath has always given mono-U problems because of mono-U's notorious weakness to permanents.  When BBS (4 FoF mono-U) was dominating T1, Oath was very popular and right behind BBS.  The only things that would make life difficult for Oath were B2B and the fact that Oath could be left alone until mono-U was ready to remove it, then it'd deal with Oath and carry on.  Now you have fetchlands to beat B2B, they have mainphase Phids, and Oath is a must-counter.  

I wouldn't normally bring up all this talk, but saying "Mono-U will slaughter you, almost now matter how you slice it" makes me question if you're playing the same match I am.  Getting things past a counter-wall is a lot easier than you're making it to be, especially when you're only trying to sneak a 1G spell in.  Remember, it doesn't always have to be the first turn or two, it's whenever.  That's why it's such an advantage for Oath, and it makes me wonder how mono-U is going to keep up.

[Covetous]

While it's true that mono-U can overwhelm an oath player with counters, cards such as Duress make the matchup nastier.  True, they will try to drop an early chalice=1, but that is only if they run chalices and if they draw and can resolve one.  And if you're smart you can get around chalice=1 with little trouble.  If mono-U can prevent oath from activating, they can win.  If you activate oath, they will most likely get stomped in around two turns.  

And on the subject of slaver-proofness--yes, this deck is more slaver-resistant than Tog, but any control deck gets hosed by slaver, by definition.  Even if it's only something as simple as wasting your hand, that's a pretty bad thing.  Sure, if you have an Oath in play and are smart enough to play GBlessing in your deck, you don't have a lot to fear (i.e. can't get decked by your own oath), but they can still make things difficult in so many ways, depending on your deck.  If you run Wish, it can hurt (mmm naturalize your oath).  If you run Deed, it can hurt (mmm waste your deed or your oath as well).  They can counter your oath with your own force or intuition for two oaths and a win condition, etc.  You all know what the slaver can do.  The possibilities are endless, so don't say the deck is slaver-proof.

[freakish777]

@freakish777:
When going 1st, even assuming you don't get a land + Mox you can just drop land, land, Oath.  For every time they'd get a Mana Leak opening, you'd get a first turn Oath opening so for basic purposes it evens out.

No... it doesn't... if you both have them, you don't get your oath into play.  If you have it and they don't, you possibly get Oath into play (much more likely, but again, back to the FoW discussion.  If they have Mana Leak and you don't have Oath, well you're out of luck and quickly losing the game as they'll resolve an Ophidian and get their draw engine online.

When going 2nd:
You can still play first turn land + Mox, and if not then just play the control game. ;P

My point is that you can turbo-win whereas they can't, and at the WORST scenario you have to slow play your win and then you're even.  Big whoop.

You will lose the control game 9/10 times against Mono-U in the current environment (atleast using Oath)...

I wouldn't normally bring up all this talk, but saying "Mono-U will slaughter you, almost now matter how you slice it" makes me question if you're playing the same match I am.  Getting things past a counter-wall is a lot easier than you're making it to be, especially when you're only trying to sneak a 1G spell in.  Remember, it doesn't always have to be the first turn or two, it's whenever.  That's why it's such an advantage for Oath, and it makes me wonder how mono-U is going to keep up.

It's not whenever, again, they will get Ophidian down and when that happens you can't sit around and wait to get an Oath and just magically resolve it.  Granted I am likely running a different decklist than you in my testing, however, I don't think it will particularly matter.

@Covetous, that assumes you're splashing for black, I'm talking about a U/G build.  Yes, it may be wise to splash black to handle some exceptions, but if so, I'd like someone's playtesting and list to prove it.

[Anders Noer]

Here's a few cents to the mix...

Plated Slagwurm - RAWR!!
This is the biggest untargetable dude printed, this could be good..
Cog and Colossus die to STP, this thing sticks around and brings the solid beats.
If you find him a bit boring, add some of Dragon Fangs/Breath/Wings/Scales/Shadow to the deck.. It really only fills up one or two slots. Fangs is the only one needed really IMO. maybe Breath to go a little faster, but i don't think it's necessary. (EDIT: maybe 1-2 Dragon Wings might be alright, as they cycle and are pitchable)

Lava Dart - Welder-Be-Gone
When you oath away the top 20 cards of your library and you're playing 3 sideboarded Lava Darts, you should be able to respond to Blessings effect by flashbacking a Dart from the grave to deal with stray Welders. This could tip the Colossus vs. Cognivore scale? For this to be possible you'd need a red splash. REB and R&R are both nice in the board. adding 1 or 2 Volcanics wouldn't hurt too much as they will be reshuffled when oathing when you use them to flashback the savage Dart.

Combo seems like the hardest matchup, adding some Rewd Mazes to the SB might be a nice addition?

EDIT II: And by the way - Is Sol Ring any good in this deck? The Intuition/AK mentioned earlier certainly aren't...

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

And by the way - Is Sol Ring any good in this deck? The Intuition/AK mentioned earlier certainly aren't...

Are you kidding me? The only reason you stand a chance vs. control is because of your draw engine. Currently, I'm testing AKs with thirsts, and it's the shit vs. control decks. How on earth do you plan on seeing those counters and oaths if you can't draw them? Impulse may be good, but against control I want card advantage, not card quality.

As far as plated slagwurm goes, it may not be a bad idea, but again, it has no evasion. Good SB card, but I don't think it's MD material.

-Bob

[Anders Noer]

And by the way - Is Sol Ring any good in this deck? The Intuition/AK mentioned earlier certainly aren't...

Are you kidding me? The only reason you stand a chance vs. control is because of your draw engine. Currently, I'm testing AKs with thirsts, and it's the shit vs. control decks. How on earth do you plan on seeing those counters and oaths if you can't draw them? Impulse may be good, but against control I want card advantage, not card quality.

I agree that you need some drawing power to compete with opposing control strategies. But the thing is that this isn't control-Oath as it used to be. Orchard turned this deck into a combo-control deck and I think Impulse deserves at least a second look. I probably went over the line stating that Intuition/AK are bad in this deck. I just think that 7 slots that are quite mana intensive is a bit too steep in a deck that like to shuffle it's graveyard into the library a lot.  I think grabbing an answer/threat fast (courtesy of Impulse) could do well enough coupled with REB supported by the red splash. I'm not sure though which is why some testing will have to be done on my part to back up this theory.

I can see how Sol Ring would be nice, if Intuition/AK stays, but otherwise I don't see it as an auto-inclusion. ESG would actually be better
 :shock:

[Team-Judgement]

We all know that you need some kind of draw engine

Intuition - AK
Ophedian
Thirst
Draw 7's

The only one that really fit into this is Intuition - Ak, because u dont play enough artifacts that u can really picht them, and draw 7 is for combo or decks that do something broken, and Ophedians just dont go along with Oath. You could also use scrying but i think the deck should be U/G/r to deal with Mono U... And as noer says the lava dart is quite techy, yes RaR are also ince but i think oxidize would be better in this deck.

Where i play(denmark, Jylland for those who know ^^) Mono U packs 4 Ophedian along with 4 AK instead of impulse, that makes your ak's less broken, and i cant find a non-ak draw engine that fits into U/G/r

[Malhavoc]

I can see how Sol Ring would be nice, if Intuition/AK stays, but otherwise I don't see it as an auto-inclusion. ESG would actually be better
 :shock:

As a side note, running ESG is really a bad choice. You've not noticed that they are creatures. You do not want to oath them instead of a colossus.

[Anders Noer]

I can see how Sol Ring would be nice, if Intuition/AK stays, but otherwise I don't see it as an auto-inclusion. ESG would actually be better
 :shock:

As a side note, running ESG is really a bad choice. You've not noticed that they are creatures. You do not want to oath them instead of a colossus.

You're right... Owned I am!

[Covetous]

Remind me why you need to be UGr to deal with mono-U?  Just because you can bring in REB?  Well, I certainly don't think that's the game breaker you think it is, or even very good.  Chalice=1 == REB sucks.  The reason to run red would be to remove little dorks like welder, etc., as well as having rack and ruin.

TFK is a great card, but not in this deck.  Unfortunately, most of the best card-drawing engines that are good in type 1 won't fit in this deck.  Scrying is worth a try.  Impulse has value, but I can't find room for it.  
I have one open slot in my build, which is currently filled with vtutor.  It could also be pdeed3, intuition3, cunning wish1, mtutor or regrowth.  The first three are the most legitimate options, but I think the vtutor is pretty strong here because it gives you 6 oaths (you have dtutor too) and 4 pdeeds.

[Methuselahn]

Someone explain to me how the lists in these threads are actually beating Control Slaver and MUD/Stax/tanglewire-smokestack.dec.

When you have no wasteland and just Force to protect you from turn 1 Trinisphere, what do you do?  When you are giving them spirits and they drop a Tangle Wire, how do you not die?

[Malhavoc]

Someone explain to me how the lists in these threads are actually beating Control Slaver and MUD/Stax/tanglewire-smokestack.dec.

When you have no wasteland and just Force to protect you from turn 1 Trinisphere, what do you do?  When you are giving them spirits and they drop a Tangle Wire, how do you not die?

With black we could also add duress. And a first turn oath is probably game against MUD (unless he finds both tangle and smokestack quickly). Adding wastelands would be great, but this would probably force us to run only two color, or otherwise having a quite fragile manabase.

[Rico Suave]

@freakish777:
When going 1st, even assuming you don't get a land + Mox you can just drop land, land, Oath.  For every time they'd get a Mana Leak opening, you'd get a first turn Oath opening so for basic purposes it evens out.

No... it doesn't... if you both have them, you don't get your oath into play.  If you have it and they don't, you possibly get Oath into play (much more likely, but again, back to the FoW discussion.  If they have Mana Leak and you don't have Oath, well you're out of luck and quickly losing the game as they'll resolve an Ophidian and get their draw engine online.

If you're going first like I said, and you get Mox + land + Oath, they can't Mana Leak it whether they have the right opening or not because they won't even have had a turn yet.

If they have Leak and you don't have Oath, well then you must have something else so just play the game out like a normal mirror.

In NO circumstance does mono-U ever have an advantage.  The best situation they can hope for is "thank god I was able to trade 2:1."  Even if it doesn't come to that, Oath is still a heavy control deck with lots of instant speed card-draw and well equipped to play control mirrors.  Mono-U may be intimidating because of how frustrating it is, but I would not say it has an advantage at all.

I almost want to revive an OLD thread about how to beat mono-U, even if only because it'd be good for the community.

I wouldn't normally bring up all this talk, but saying "Mono-U will slaughter you, almost now matter how you slice it" makes me question if you're playing the same match I am.  Getting things past a counter-wall is a lot easier than you're making it to be, especially when you're only trying to sneak a 1G spell in.  Remember, it doesn't always have to be the first turn or two, it's whenever.  That's why it's such an advantage for Oath, and it makes me wonder how mono-U is going to keep up.

It's not whenever, again, they will get Ophidian down and when that happens you can't sit around and wait to get an Oath and just magically resolve it.  Granted I am likely running a different decklist than you in my testing, however, I don't think it will particularly matter.

I would like to see a mono-U player be forced to try and resolve Phid.  You see, you can resolve little 1 and 2cc spells early on without fear of them being Mana Drained, but when you start getting up into 3cc spells like Phid your opponent will have UU up, and even if you manage to get Phid on the board who says you can keep Oath off when you're tapped out and they get a fresh new turn?  Oath trumps Phid too.

[Team-Judgement]

Someone explain to me how the lists in these threads are actually beating Control Slaver and MUD/Stax/tanglewire-smokestack.dec.

When you have no wasteland and just Force to protect you from turn 1 Trinisphere, what do you do?  When you are giving them spirits and they drop a Tangle Wire, how do you not die?

In my never version i run mana leak instead of drain... of course because of land-mox-leak...

This has a good chance against Turn 1 trinisphere, because the deck play alot of basics along with fechtes. If you start you have leak or oath on 1st turn, and maybee post SB annul

No idea against slaver, havent tested it yet but i will soon ^^

Up2date list

4 Oath
2 DSC
2 Blessing

4 Brainstorm
4 Ak
3 Intuition
2 Cunning wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral
1 Walk
1 Fact or Fict

4 Mana Leak
4 Force of will

4 Tropical
2 Volcanic
3 Fechtes
1 Loa
5 Island
3 Ochard
5 Moxen
1 Sol ring
1 Black lotus

SB

4 Reb
1 Naturalize
2 Oxi
1 Stifle
2 RaR
1 Plated Slagwurm
1 Lava Dart(NOER TECH ^^, well once got owned by him with exactly lava dart)
3 Annul

If the decks get very popular i want to fit in echoing truth, but i dont think its needed right now

[Corndog]

I can't see this deck becoming dominant. If it were to be the new craze. Decks would just put in more creature hate. Add to the list of problem decks.. U/R landstill If U/G oath is floating around, Landstill will be very good. You can burn down the creatures they try to give you. Waste their forbidden orchards etc. Thats asuming you dont win the counter war and oath never hits. With U/G oath, I'd fear a deck with force of will more than trinisphere. You'll keep a hand with mox, fobidden orchard, and oath. If that is forced(assuming you dont have a force) you now have a bad hand thats giving them creatures every time you try to counter something etc.

[freakish777]

@freakish777:
When going 1st, even assuming you don't get a land + Mox you can just drop land, land, Oath.

If you're going first like I said, and you get Mox + land + Oath, they can't Mana Leak it whether they have the right opening or not because they won't even have had a turn yet.

Uhm... ok, I was responding to when you said if you didn't get a mox, you could just go -> Land, Land, Oath.  Which isn't accurate.  Sorry for the miscommunication on that one.

Again, this is all on U/G oath versus Mono-U, which obviously isn't the way to go if Mono-U is the only deck in your meta.

The mono-U player can wait a little while to drop 'phid, say by turn 4 or 5 latest (to have mana open for counterspell or leak or drain) to protect their draw engine.  Additionally, if the Oath player doesn't have turn one oath, but has turn two oath (with mono-U going first) or turn three oath (regardless), it becomes tough to deal with a 'phid that comes down off mana drained from your Oath.

I will concede that the word "slaughter" was a bad word choice.[/b]

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

TFK is a great card, but not in this deck. Unfortunately, most of the best card-drawing engines that are good in type 1 won't fit in this deck. Scrying is worth a try. Impulse has value, but I can't find room for it.
I have one open slot in my build, which is currently filled with vtutor. It could also be pdeed3, intuition3, cunning wish1, mtutor or regrowth. The first three are the most legitimate options, but I think the vtutor is pretty strong here because it gives you 6 oaths (you have dtutor too) and 4 pdeeds.

This is just wrong wrong. When you run 7 SoLoMoxen and 2 colosus, thirst becomes awesome. I was wrong when I thought these sucked. Ptching a colossus in hand to oath it out is fucking awesome. It's like brainstorms 5-8. As far as the monoblue matchup goes, I totally agree with rico. Monoblue runs a shitty draw engine that benefits Oath, whereas oath can run thirst + AK. Monoblue can't deal with a resolved enchantment either. Monoblue does run a shitload of counters, but trying to stop oath's draw AND combo is pretty hard.


-Bob

[Thug]

I think the main problem is that people are toying around with very different builds, so discussing matchups just yet leads to discussion since there so many different builds.

Their are builds with 12 counters, which basicly play a lot like mono-U with Oath. These builds are very good in the mirror, but have less search to go for an early combo.

There are build running 8 counters and more search + draw. These build will have more trouble with Mono-U, since you have to be able to battle them from the beginning, if you spend time digging and give them the opportunity to get a phid online, you're doomed.

There also are still a lot of different draw engines used, from Skeletal Scrying, to Intuition/Ak/Da to Intuition/Ak/Thirst. Personally I prefer the DA option since it gives you such a huge boost against control, but this also means you can't play 2 blessing 'cause then you wont be abusing those DA often enough.

Thirst is a decent card too, since there are a lot of artifact that might fit into the deck (Crucible, EE). But if you choose to run Thirst I really think you should make room for 1/2 Mindslaver annd a Bringer of the White Dawn.

Personally I wouldn't want to run less than 10/11 counters, 'cause mana leaks make the workshop matchup and the control mirror better. Against aggro you only need to find a single Oath since you should always be able to protect it, and with Ak's, Brainstorms and such I think you will find it soon enough.

The main problem too me seems dealing with Combo decks, since you will be forced into the control deck, because your win condition is too slow. Just counters won't do the job, so you need a very good sideboard against various combo decks. Chalice is a good option, although the deck relies a lot on Brainstorm.

A problem with the Slower more counter-heavy versions is that you often don't want to run Wastes in these, and this makes LoA a game-winner againt you. If you do choose to run Wastes, you will be very vulnerable to B2B and Blood Moon.

I Think it very hard to say what is the optimal version since it depends a lot on the decks you expect to face. This makes it pretty hard to discuss the deck IMO.

Koen

[cccck]

I agree that it should run at 10-11 counter to improve the matchup against mono-blue.
Personally, I would add white to put 2-3 STP maindeck. Even if your 1st Oath cannot be resolved, STP help u to kill the welder, kill the ophidian, kill the tog, kill the dragon, and buy time for u to get the 2nd Oath. STP remarkably strengthen the deck.
To deal with combo, I am talking about storm and dragon. Maindeck stifle is necessary. I will put 2 stifle in maindeck and 1 at SB for cunning wish to pick.
Personally, I think intuition and AK/DA take up too many slots. I think  4 thirst for knowledge + 4 brainstorm will be good if you use the bringer/slaver lock.

Remember, a good control-combo deck should contain:
- 1) counter/disruption
- 2) the combo
- 3) draw
- 4) Answer to opponent's threat

[absolute]

White is something this deck should probably either abuse or stay away from. The main reason to run white would be to play balance and stp's vs. aggro decks, and orim's chant vs. any combo deck. Personally white is only helpful vs. combo, because playing any kind of aggro deck you should already be one step ahead.

The point made for StP is alright, but don't forget that blue elemental blast or hydroblast can kill welder and dragon. Ophidian is fine, since if you are running u/g you should be stable enough to run mishra's factories and have blockers when they are needed. This decks weaknesses are not being taken seriously into consideration. It will have a hard control matchup, but not nearly as bad as playing overwhelmingly efficient combo decks like tps and deathlong. Thirst for knowledge is fine if you feel like playing it, but generally is only going to gain you an advantage when you draw up an artifact. Brainstorm could draw that artifact play it, and then use the next draw engine to grab everything that thirst could, and all for the same price/card advantage. Intuition/AK is a bad draw engine when playing with blessings, and as mentioned is too much space in the deck that has to devote 6-8 cards on the combo itself. The only draw engine that I like is standstill, as you can abuse it under oath, and brainstorms which you can abust in a two color version with fetchlands. Wastelands are another must, and probably the best reason to make this a two color deck, and will also help to focus the deck at being less random, as the combo is essential to winning.

Another note is that if you add red, another card that is perfect besides RaR, REB and possibly fire/ice would be artifact mutation. It is efficient at letting you oath, and has the same basic drawback the orchard does, just less tricky to get around.

[winnie]

Everyone is fearing ophidian and welder. Why don't you try damping matrix ?
It was a good tech in keeper.

And if you really fear dragon and welder (again) you have Ground Seal.

winnie.

[Limbo]

I dont get why intuition/AK as a draw engine gets trashed. First, you can respond to the blessing trigger by casting your AK for some nice card advantage. Second, why would one need 2 blessings? With one and 4 brainstorms reshuffling it back into your deck if you happen to pick it up shouldn't be a problem. This also allows you to (ab)use some nice DA tricks. In my testing AK and DA draw me mad cards.

[Thug]

Everyone is fearing ophidian and welder. Why don't you try damping matrix ?
It was a good tech in keeper.

Ophidian isn't a triggered ability anymore, so Matrix won't stop it.
But there really is no reason to be scared of Phids, they are very slow compared to your draw engine, and you shouldn't have trouble finding an oath and resolving it, even if you failed to counter the Phid.

White is totally unnecesairry IMO, of the the reasons you run oath is that you don't have to care about creature destruction anymore. There are very few creatures that really pose a threat to this deck (Welder, Platinum Angel, Duplicant, WG Dragon  ).

You should be able to counter those or wish for a solution. Welder is annoying, but not much more than that, and if they use their Welder as a fog effect you get all the time to abuse DA and AK's with Oath. Finding a Wish for Lava Dart/BEB shouldnt be a problem.

I dont get why intuition/AK as a draw engine gets trashed. First, you can respond to the blessing trigger by casting your AK for some nice card advantage. Second, why would one need 2 blessings? With one and 4 brainstorms reshuffling it back into your deck if you happen to pick it up shouldn't be a problem. This also allows you to (ab)use some nice DA tricks. In my testing AK and DA draw me mad cards.

I totally agree with all of this, Intuition is simply amazing in this deck since it also finds Oath against aggro, or an Orchard when you need it.
DA is amazing with Oath, especially since you really only need 1 Blessing.

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This is my version of the deck, it plays really smooth and so far it really satisfies me in testing:

Lands: (17)
1 [card]Library Of Alexandia[/card]
4 [card]Forbidden Orchard[/card]
4 [card]Polluted Delta[/card]
4 [card]Island[/card]
2 [card]Tropical Island[/card]
2 [card]Volcanic Island[/card]

Artifact Acceleration: (7)
1 [card]Mox Jet[/card]
1 [card]Mox Emerald[/card]
1 [card]Mox Pearl[/card]
1 [card]Mox Ruby[/card]
1 [card]Mox Sapphire[/card]
1 [card]Sol Ring[/card]
1 [card]Black Lotus[/card]

Draw & Search: (14)
4 [card]Brainstorm[/card]
4 [card]Accumulated Knowledge[/card]
1 [card]Ancestral Recall[/card]
2 [card]Deep Analysis[/card]
3 [card]Intuition[/card]

Counters: (11)
4 [card]Mana Drain[/card]
4 [card]Force of Will[/card]
3 [card]Mana Leak[/card]

Oath and Friends: (8)
4 [card]Oath of Druids[/card]
2 [card]Darksteel Colossus[/card]
1 [card]Gaeas Blessing[/card]
1 [card]Tinker[/card]

Utility: (3)
2 [card]Cunning Wish[/card]
1 [card]Time Walk[/card]

The sideboard is still under construction, but some cards that defenitly will be in there are:

- Lava Dart
- REB
- Artifact Mutation
- Rack and Ruin
- Deep Analysis (#3)
- Misdirection
- Oxidize

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I probably need just 1 more land in the deck, but I can't find any room so it has to be card #61, how much land have you people been running and what are you're thoughts on the totall number?

One of the Cunning Wishes was an Explosives for a While, but I found that I have enough options to make Wish even more versatile than Explosives.

The deck is very strong versus other control decks, but sometimes has slight problems with Aggro. Madness can often race you with flying beats, and sometimes even Fish can race you with Evasion and Shooters. I've been searching for another creature in the sideboard to solve this problem and so far I like Phantom Nishoba best. Weaver is also an option, but I would mean I have to find room for a second blessing in my sideboard. Opinions?

Even with a good counterbase with a good amount of draw to back it up I'm also missing something against various combo decks, the games are far from unwinnable but I would feel much better if I knew I had a good answer in my sideboard, options?

And what are the opinions on Wastelands? I do not run any and it has caused some poblems against LoA and Bazaar, but I simply can't fit them in. Against LoA you can often force them to go down to less than 7 by playing slightly more aggresive than you otherwise may, but Bazaars are pretty bad. Ginving a deck two turn to dig even after you established your "combo" can really give them the opportunity to combo you out/race you.

Koen

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Everyone is fearing ophidian and welder. Why don't you try damping matrix ?
It was a good tech in keeper.

Ophidian isn't a triggered ability anymore, so Matrix won't stop it.
But there really is no reason to be scared of Phids, they are very slow compared to your draw engine, and you shouldn't have trouble finding an oath and resolving it, even if you failed to counter the Phid.

Oracle sayz:
Whenever ~this~ attacks and isn't blocked, you may draw a card. If you do, ~this~ deals no combat damage this turn. [Oracle 1999/07/30]

Last time I checked, abilities starting witht the word "whenever" were triggered....Either this thing is triggered or it's a replacement effect, as it certainly isn't a static aibliy.  Replacement effects start with "if."

Anyway, for the deck, oath is cheaper than matrix so hits eariler.  If you can resolve an oath any ophidian in play is negligable, however welder is a different story.  I still think that answering 1cc creatures with 3cc permenants is a bad idea... Beb owns welders and any sbed Rebs.

As for people cutting drain for leak, the deck should have 10+ counters anyways, and remember fow>drain>leak>counterspell.

I think wastes should be included simply because of how good they are... in addition to dealing with lands that say "kill me or lose," they simply act as good disruption/tempo cards.  Finding room is a different story, however...

Vs combo wastes will help, as will possible sbed chalice/rod (chalice is probably better)

I'm not sure that the deeps are necessary... they give you an edge against control, but against combo and aggro I think they are lacking.  What about merchant scroll to help with ak engine and ancestral.  I'm thinking 1 in additon to a mystical tutor (any deck with ak engine, ancestral, and TINKER mut run this.

The problem with the intuition engine is how much space it takes up.  Decks using it usualyl end up cutting wastes.  I don't debate the power and speed of the enigne, I just think that there might be options that take up fewer slot that allow the deck for more disruption anwers instead of draw (ie wastes, or maybe more leaks, etc)

I like the wish just because it lets you actually deal with stuff instead of scooping to it.