U/G Oath

[MisterShark]

And what are the opinions on Wastelands? I do not run any and it has caused some poblems against LoA and Bazaar, but I simply can't fit them in. Against LoA you can often force them to go down to less than 7 by playing slightly more aggresive than you otherwise may, but Bazaars are pretty bad. Ginving a deck two turn to dig even after you established your "combo" can really give them the opportunity to combo you out/race you.

Koen

What about 1 Avalanche Riders in the board for these matchups?  If you've got Oath out already and given that you don't hit Colossus first (or can throw then another Spirit Token) Avalanche Riders does the job then goes away right on queue during your next upkeep to allow you to pop Colossus on board.

[luke_twigger]

I think Thug meant to say "Ophidian isn't an *activated* ability anymore, so Matrix won't stop it."

Ophidian's original card text is worded as an activated ability which has obviously been updated in the Oracle into a triggered ability.

: Draw a card. Ophidian deals no combat damage this turn. Use this ability only if Ophidian is attacking and unblocked and only once each turn.

Luke

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think Thug meant to say "Ophidian isn't an *activated* ability anymore, so Matrix won't stop it."

Ophidian's original card text is worded as an activated ability which has obviously been updated in the Oracle into a triggered ability.

: Draw a card. Ophidian deals no combat damage this turn. Use this ability only if Ophidian is attacking and unblocked and only once each turn.

Luke

Oh ya matrix just axes activated abilities.  Whoops.  I was focussing too much on what he said without thinking about why he said it .

[Limbo]

At the moment I am playing about the same list as Koen (thug), with the following exceptions:

+1 mana leak
-1 intuition
This could go either way. If I decided on running a 3rd intuition, I might cut a drain instead of a leak though, since I really like the 1U cc of mana leak in this deck. Not sure though, I don't find myself in the need for the 3rd intuition yet.

+2 Engineered Explosives
-2 Cunning Wish
I really disliked the wishes in this build, but that could be because I haven't got red in the SB. The explosives come easily down for anything ranging from 0-3. with the orchards and a full complement of moxes even 4 (and 5) is (are) reachable, but probably not necessary. 4 maybe for suchi and jugs, but thats it. Also nice to use for tinker -> DSC

+1 Morphling
-1 DSC

Morphlings untap, untargetable flying tricks still own if you don't pay for the 3UU. And if needed you can hardcast him easier then the colossus. Also impervious to maze of ith.

I am playing no red (yet) in the SB. Do you find the red in the SB superior to ground seals, naturalize / oxidize? I'd say artifact mutation =/ tech with oath's...

To neuter dragon (and/or welders) I'd say ground seal is a nice solution. These are better then BEB's since after SB dragon might try to go for verdant force plan or something. Also, a permanent solution to welders > firing every single one of them.

I really like my U/g build right now, but I am thinking of replacing a few trops for a few underground sea's to gain access to a D. tutor, a few deeds and maybe some nice SB tricks. But I expect this would weaken the decks really smooth mana base, so I probably leave it as it is.

PS: As not to swarm the topic with too much decklists I will not post it here (yet), but if someone is interested, PM me.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Honestly, I think Either U/G with wish, or BUG oath is the way to go. The one sure way to neuter this deck is if somebody plays a platinum angel. Wish gives you a great answer, and black gives you deed, which is AMAZING in this deck. Engineered explosives is pretty weak IMO. The best you can do is explosives for 4 with all your colors out and an orchard, and even then, if you have that much mana, you should win.

Red is unnecessary as you out draw control (Intuition/AK AND Thirst for knowledge) and honestly, in all my playtesting vs. welder decks, they have probably only resolved welder 3 times. Even then, there is a chance you don't put out a mox in your GY when you oath. Blessing also solves this problem.

White is just junk, as swords is a dead draw (except vs. welders and angel, which other colors can take care of just as easily) and balance isn't as good as deed.

That leaves black. This color is simply amazing. You get 3 cards, deed, vampiric, and will. Thats all you need. Demonic sucks because it's sorcery speed, and vamp does the same thing but cheaper. Deed is fucking nuts as you can take care of anything from food chain to platinum angel. Will is an auto inclusion, as sometimes you'll oath into goodness, then vamp for will and just win.

I have a pretty strong version of oath built, but I can't post it because my teammate may be playing it in upcoming tourneys. If anyone is interested in some input on oath, gimme a holler.

-Bob

[BreathWeapon]

Why is it that every one seems to be playing 2xCognivore or 2xDarksteel Colossus MD? Cognivore is just as good, if not better, than DSC game 1 vs Every Deck. No one MD's REB or Tormod's Crypt. The only reason to use a MD DSC is Tinker, and that's it.

People need to get off this One or the Other mentality, both are worth using and both have their own advantages vs Control or Workshops. You should alternate Win Conditions with your SB to keep your opponent's off guard, MDing Cognivores vs the field and then SBing them in vs Control is ideal. The only real question is what do you do vs Workshop.dec? They'll board REBs and Crypts vs Cognivore and Goblin Welder is a pain vs DSC, so you'll need something like Woodchipper or Molderslug.

[Machinus]

DSC is better because of a thing that large tournaments have, called a "metagame."

[dromar]

Deed is fucking nuts as you can take care of anything from food chain to platinum angel.

You sound pretty confident that you'll have 7 mana lying around whenever an angel hits play. Am I missing something?

As for Demonic being excluded from the list, I was surprised at first, because Demonic is usually always in a list with black (kinda like WiN), but the fact that it's a sorcery and the deck already has a strong draw/search base is a strong point.

[BreathWeapon]

DSC is better because of a thing that large tournaments have, called a "metagame."

That's exactly my point. In a real Metagame your going to see a card called Goblin Welder. Why would you play a MD Win Condition that forces you to use Gaea's Blessing, a sub optimal card, to circumvent Welder? That's assuming you can circumvent the Welder in time, which isn't a foregone conclusion.

I don't see how 2xDarksteel Colossus is better than 2xCognivore Game 1, and I don't see how either is better than 1xDarksteel Colossus and 1xCognivore for the entirety of the match.

[Vegeta2711]

I don't see how 2xDarksteel Colossus is better than 2xCognivore Game 1, and I don't see how either is better than 1xDarksteel Colossus and 1xCognivore for the entirety of the match.

Reading the thread fully is tech.

Barring this, short anwser: who the fuck cares because if your running DSC, you'll run Trike to kill welder anyways.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

You sound pretty confident that you'll have 7 mana lying around whenever an angel hits play. Am I missing something?

As for Demonic being excluded from the list, I was surprised at first, because Demonic is usually always in a list with black (kinda like WiN), but the fact that it's a sorcery and the deck already has a strong draw/search base is a strong point.

1) Mana Drain

2) It's probably going to be late game when you deed away angel.

3) You DO run 7 SoLoMoxen

4) I like vamp more, as I can EoT Vamp on my first turn.


-Bob

[Thug]

Deed is fucking nuts as you can take care of anything from food chain to platinum angel.

I don't really see how Deed is all that good, you complain about Demonic being a Sorcery, but deed is a 1BG sorcery. And very rarely more than 1 threat slips by, this is why Cunning Wish is perfect 'Cause it finds the perfect solution on that threat. You never really want to deed away all your jewelery, since they (at least in my version) are what makes the deck work.

Cunning Wish fixes the Angel problem for just 4 mana (with an Oxidize) all at instant speed, tell me how thats inferior to a Deed which needs ten mana totall.

---

People need to get off this One or the Other mentality, both are worth using and both have their own advantages vs Control or Workshops. You should alternate Win Conditions with your SB to keep your opponent's off guard, MDing Cognivores vs the field and then SBing them in vs Control is ideal. The only real question is what do you do vs Workshop.dec? They'll board REBs and Crypts vs Cognivore and Goblin Welder is a pain vs DSC, so you'll need something like Woodchipper or Molderslug.

But with Lava Dart in the sideboard Welders are a no issue, so why bother not playing Colossus because of Welder. With Lavadarts, Intuitions and Oath you shouldn't have problem finding one.

Blessing is not a Bad cards, it is an extra security against Dragon, shuffles back Cunters/AK's. Cycles and it just 1G. And aside from Blessing the only other sorcery you have are Time Walk, Tinker and DA.

---

Red is unnecessary as you out draw control (Intuition/AK AND Thirst for knowledge) and honestly, in all my playtesting vs. welder decks, they have probably only resolved welder 3 times. Even then, there is a chance you don't put out a mox in your GY when you oath. Blessing also solves this problem.

Lava Dart is cute, but the real reason for Red is R&R and REB imo. Rack and Ruin is much better than Energy Flux in this deck, for several reasons. And REB is needed versus Tog, without it the matchup might actually be slightly in their favour.

At the moment I am playing about the same list as Koen (thug), with the following exceptions:

+1 mana leak
-1 intuition
This could go either way. If I decided on running a 3rd intuition, I might cut a drain instead of a leak though, since I really like the 1U cc of mana leak in this deck. Not sure though, I don't find myself in the need for the 3rd intuition yet.

I would really like to find room for the 4th Leak, but I also really prefer 3 Intuitions. You prefer 1u over UU, does that mean you are running Wastelands by any chance?

+1 Morphling
-1 DSC

Morphlings untap, untargetable flying tricks still own if you don't pay for the 3UU. And if needed you can hardcast him easier then the colossus. Also impervious to maze of ith.

Maze is another of those Lands that cause problems, good thing it doesn't see play that much. Morphling seems pretty risky versus aggro, I know that it only really takes 1 turn more to win, but that might just be a crucial turn.

I am playing no red (yet) in the SB. Do you find the red in the SB superior to ground seals, naturalize / oxidize? I'd say artifact mutation =/ tech with oath's...

I run a single Artifact Mutation to wish for, and to board in against Stax. You obviously don't want to use it with an Oath out, but it can really swing the game if you don't have an Oath yet. If you manage to destroy a 3/4cc card you immediatly dodge Smokestack and Wire. It's about as good as R&R is, but with the Wishes I like having more options.

The only matchups in which I think you need is Stax (and Tog seems much harder to me without the aid of REB). For other matchups Green has perfect tools too. I like having better answers to Stax, but running 3 Colours does mean you'll have a harder time fitting in Wastelands so it's really a close call.

---

I'm thinking 1 in additon to a mystical tutor (any deck with ak engine, ancestral, and TINKER mut run this.

The mystical was the last card I cut, since all the other parts seemed uncuttable, and the decks lacks the cards that make mystical really good (Will, Balance). I don't really like the Tinker in the deck as strange as it may sound, it's a 2U sorcery that also forces you to give up a mana producer. It's ok versus aggro, but not all that good versus control.

Tinker on itself does warrant it's place, but Mystical is not an automatic inclusion to me, since it rarely fetches anything other than draw, and you have other tools for that. You have a good amount of 1X spells that you want to cast first turn, and you have 4 brainstorms and an Ancestral at 1cc, is case you don't have a Mox, often Mystical->Ancestral takes up precious mana in the early game, and you only get 1 card advantage.

---

I'm gonna see how much Wastes I can fit into the deck without having to worry about Blue Sources and Basics.

Koen

[Anders Noer]

I agree with Thug on most of these Issues. Red has some very strong cards for this deck.

Sideboarded Coffin Purges could be huge with the black splash though, as they're oathed into the yard in the same way that Lava Dart is.

I'm gonna see how much Wastes I can fit into the deck without having to worry about Blue Sources and Basics.

Koen

I really think you're deck would do just fine without Sol Ring. The only spells it helps are Tinker (1) and Cunning Wish (2). (Oath + Oath for 2GG don't count ). It would be nice to swap the Sol Ring slot for a Strip Mine, but it seems to me that you'd rather have another volcanic Island to let you flashback Dart consistantly.

Great list apart from this Thug.

[BreathWeapon]

I haven't had a great deal of difficult with my manabase. You have to simply accept the fact that Back To Basics and Blood Moon will be legitimiate threats to your deck and move on. Yawgmoth's Will, Demonic Tutor, Mindtwist, Rack and Ruin and REB are worth that risk.

I'ven been playing 4cc a lot lately, and one thing I've experimented with was replacing Sol Ring with Mox Emerald to support a SB Artifact Mutation. I picked up on a couple things from this experience.

I don't think Sol Ring is worth your 1 Drop on Turn 1. I'd rather play Mox Emerald for Free instead of breaking my Fetch Land prematurely for Sol Ring. You also gain the ability to Brainstorm EOT when you can circumvent Land->Sol Ring, Go. With Oath, I think this is even more true. Oath doesn't have the same Mana Intensity as 4cc. It doesn't rely on a 7 Mana Investment to win the game or a X cc Draw Engine. It has 4-7 MD Cards with 1G in their casting cost, 4 of which you want to play ASAP vs numerous decks. Sol Ring is giving your Opponent Tempo for Colorless Mana you don't really need, IMO.

Anyway, here is the Manabase I'm going with:

5xStrips
6xLoMoxen
4xOrchard
4xFetch
2xTropical
2xUnderground
2xVolcanic
1xIsland

I miss the random brokenness of Library in the Control Mirror, but with 5xStrips being a standard Control Element now and all of the B2B and Blood Moons stability seems more important. I may cut Pearl for LoA, but only time will tell.

[Covetous]

Deed is good because it can answer any and all threats at one time, unlike wish, which can only rarely answer more than one threat and almost never more than two.  Deed.  Kills.  Everything.  Engineered E is much weaker than Deed, but in a UG build it may still be good due to your 5c lands.  Gaea's blessing is good in multiples because it actually does something--you often forget that it doesn't just shuffle your gy into your library.  For example:
Me:  I activate Oath...revealing [random artifact], gaea's blessing and DSC.
Smart opponent:  I activate Welder in response to the trigger of blessing, exchanging DSC for [random artifact].
Me:  I play my second blessing, targeting [random artifact].  Your attempt at welding fizzles.  I draw a card.  Now my gy goes back into my library where it belongs.
You might say "what if they have two welders?" to which I answer:
a.  why the hell do they have two welders and have not yet won?
b.  p-deedy

I always find a use for blessing, even if only to cycle through my deck.  Shuffling 3 card-drawing spells back into your deck is nice as statistics go.  If you draw the single blessing early, it can be frustrating to try to get it back into your library even with brainstorms.  2x Blessing can allow many dirty tricks a la Turboland as well as guarantee frequent gy shuffling.

And on the subject of thirst--it is indeed very good when DSCx2 is your win condition, and it's another reason that EE is decent--discard it if it's not useful.  I dismissed TFK too quickly without substantial playtesting but more playtesting has changed my mind.

[effang]

Deed is fucking nuts as you can take care of anything from food chain to platinum angel.

You sound pretty confident that you'll have 7 mana lying around whenever an angel hits play. Am I missing something?

As for Demonic being excluded from the list, I was surprised at first, because Demonic is usually always in a list with black (kinda like WiN), but the fact that it's a sorcery and the deck already has a strong draw/search base is a strong point.

I really don't understand the exclusion of DT.  Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong list, but what's the difference b/w oath draw and Hulk draw? Hulk also runs DT btw...

[Limbo]

Me: I play my second blessing, targeting [random artifact] to prevent welder tricks.

Since when did blessing become an instant?

One blessing is enough because:

1: You got brainstorm to shuffle it back when you draw it.
2: Even when you play 2 blessing, you still put back a blessing with brainstorm, you seldomly (never) cast them anyway.
3: you don't want to shuffle back your DA, which is nuts when you play intuitions
4: Even if you can't shuffle back your library, you can still beat the sh*t out of your opponent with your 11/11 trampler. Assuming you play 2 colossus, you should be able to deal lethal damage before you run out of cards.

About oath decks with a TFK draw engine included, what about adding a lightning greaves or 2? If colossus survives untill your first mainphase after oathing, he will be almost impossible to get rid off. If tinkered into play, it's the same. And it will cut one turn of the clock for your opponent. I'd say trying 2 is a nice number.

[Team-Judgement]

@Lightning Greaves

Its a dead card until you get the DSC into play, and then it doesnt matter because its an 11/11 Indestructable big fat stuffy thing that just wont go away, even if the opponent get rid of him the other one will come next turn. Stp+Bounce+Diabolic+Welder edict are the only cards that can take care of this huge monster, and they are all instant so i dont think it really matters

Cutting blessing might seem like a good idea, but DSC can be handled, and if you cant shuffle your graveyard back you can get into the situation where you deckrun. And blessing is still a cantrip, and shuffling back ancestral, walk and stuff like that and drawing a card for 1G is acceptable.

@Draw Engine

I (still) think that intuition, ak and deep analysis is the best draw engine, of course picthing collousos to a thirst is nice, but it wont generate as much card advantage. And playing ak in response to blessings trigger is really a nice thing ^^

If you play thirst and brainstorm you could even consider going down to 1 single DSC

[dromar]

dromar wrote:

Deed is fucking nuts as you can take care of anything from food chain to platinum angel.


You sound pretty confident that you'll have 7 mana lying around whenever an angel hits play. Am I missing something?

As for Demonic being excluded from the list, I was surprised at first, because Demonic is usually always in a list with black (kinda like WiN), but the fact that it's a sorcery and the deck already has a strong draw/search base is a strong point.

I really don't understand the exclusion of DT. Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong list, but what's the difference b/w oath draw and Hulk draw? Hulk also runs DT btw...

I'm a little undecided myself, mostly because I haven't looked at the deck with great detail, or playtested with it. My statement was actually a response to what Clown had said earlier:

Demonic sucks because it's sorcery speed

I'm not intimately familiar with the decklist right now, so I'm not gonna say it's wrong to keep Demonic out. My understanding is that there is already enough draw power in the deck to negate the need for Demonic Tutor, and sorcery speed means you will be using resources you would rather have available to counter spells, with any extra mana used eot to draw cards. So, the only time you want to use mana on your own turn is when you're playing Oath, a.k.a. win condition. That's my take

[Covetous]

Damned sorceries...I should read my cards better.  That certainly puts a damper on my idea.  However, welders are the reason to run MD removal such as deed/EE.  I rarely have a problem with Welders welding my colossi, or if I do I have much bigger problems than just a welder (i.e. slaver/titan/smokestack/something else).