Shuffling the Opponent's Deck: Serious Discussion

[DavidHernandez]

There were so many comments (in another thread) regarding the shuffling of an opponent's deck that I thought it would be beneficial to centralize the discussion and get feedback for (and from) the community.

There are different shuffling methods and not all of them are kind. For example, the Rifle Shuffle can damage both cards and sleeves, and the Standard Shuffle method (the one used to shuffle a regular deck of playing cards) will almost certainly warp cards while weakening them.

I personally know three players who set up their decks. I don't like that. I consider it cheating. However, it appears to be legal so long as they "shuffle" their deck at least three times after the set up.

So in my mind the big question is:

What non-damaging shuffle method(s) can you use to reduce the chances of being beaten by a deck that has been set up?

The answers would also apply to simply ensuring that you are satisfied with the randomization of your opponents deck, whether or not you suspect the deck has been set up.

I used to gently riffle shuffle the opponent's deck, but I have stopped that. While I personally Riffle Shuffle and Standard Shuffle my decks, I have seen too many opponents cringe even when I am carful with the riffle.  

I now Pile Shuffle their deck, making three piles in the technique.  This way, if they "cheated" they will end up with a clump of land in pile number 3. If they didn't, they will have a randomized deck. If they don't like the pile shuffle, they can re-shuffle and/or cut their deck.

As a last resort, you can always call a judge over to shuffle their deck.

I realize that some comments from members may be duplicated from another thread, but this seemed like an important topic that was busy hijacking/lurking in other discussions.

--Dave.

[rvs]

I personally know three players who set up their decks. I don't like that. I consider it cheating. However, it appears to be legal so long as they "shuffle" their deck at least three times after the set up.

This is where you are wrong. If a presented deck is not sufficiently randomised (and the way you describe it, that does indeed seem to be the case) then it is a serious offense.

[Nehptis]

Following are some past articles on shuffling from SCG that may be of interest:

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=1499

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=4832

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=4419

http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=4004

[DavidHernandez]

Nehptis: I read all 4 of the articles. Thanks for posting those. From those articles it looks like MoreFling's comment is true. An opponent who sets the deck up and then suffles is not performing a legal act.

But that is not the question.

You don't know who you're going to play next until after that person may have set up their deck (between rounds).  It is clear that the best way to prevent a loss due to a set-up is to shuffle your opponent's cards.

That being the case, what are the experiences of TMD users in this regard? What do you find to be the best non-offensive, non-card-destroying method for randomizing your opponent's deck?

Dave.

[Comrade]

I always shuffle my deck in the couple of minutes before the match round begins in front of my opponent. In my opinion if they gave 3 minutes for deck shuffling [barring battleofwits.decs] I think this would be sufficient. I've never felt that paranoid that I had to shuffle my opponent's decks, but as long as he/she shuffled in front of me I felt comfortable with that.

[SliverKing]

I like to do a 2 or 3 pile shuffle of my opponents deck. If they have mana-woven it can totally ruin them.  If they havent, then no harm is done.

For shuffling my deck I have a fairly ridiculous habit of making 30 piles, in no particular order. then picking them up in no particular order.  A few overhand shuffles and a blind cut and then I present.  WHen I dont have space I condense the number of piles, but its always as many as I can fit on the table.  The only true randomization would be '52 card pickup' and this is as close to that as I can get.

The cheaters in this game piss me off to no end... and the more I play, the more I suspect that there are a lot of them.  Sadly I dont think there is anyway to stop it.  Shuffle your opponents deck EVERY time, and hope your shuffling is better than their cheating.

[LotusHead]

Why not just keep shuffling your own deck (a good minute or two) and if your opponent stops shuffling before you are satisfied, just say "aw cum on, keep shuffling."

No one would deny you that.  If they shuffle like 10 times, their setup CAN'T still be relevant, can it?

Then cut their deck.

[Toad]

If they shuffle like 10 times, their setup CAN'T still be relevant, can it?

Actually that is the exact opposite. If you know how to "stack-shuffle", the more you shuffle, the more the deck will be stacked. Land-stacking a deck is extremely easy.

I always rifle shuffle my opponent's deck. It does not damage the cards. It slightly damages the sleeves if you do it wrong, but sleeves are not made to be used forever anyways.

[Mixing Mike]

I always rifle shuffle my opponent's deck.

It's still very disrespectful to your opponent.

I use the method Kerz had posted, after I do a 7 pile shuffle.  It works well enough for me.  Most people in the NE that I've seen just watch their opponet shuffle, then cut their deck.  I've seen people get upset when their opponent picks up their deck and shuffles it.

[Toad]

It's still very disrespectful to your opponent.

Disrespectful WHAT? I'm sorry, I don't get you.

[ctthespian]

It's still very disrespectful to your opponent.

Disrespectful WHAT? I'm sorry, I don't get you.

No matter what you say rifle shuffling cards does wear them.  Unless you do the drop or falling rifle shuffle method (not forcing the cards through the shuffle.)  I've seen decks that people play when the rifle shuffle constantly and their cards have a wave effect to them.

So yeah I think I'd take some offense to some one hard rifle shuffling my deck.  Especially considering there's a good percentage of Alpha cards in most of mine and the card stock is even less resilient to hard shuffling.

-Keith

[mr_x]

I personally don't like it when an opponents just grabs my deck and starts shuffling. I really don't mind, but i just wish they would ask first. I personally feel like my opponent thinks i'm cheating when s/he does this without asking. So, I think that a little request and light shuffling would be okay. It sucks when your opponent grabs your cards and then just shuffle it like it's their own and it looks to damage your cards.

[Mixing Mike]

See, lots of people don't know how to riffle the right way.  If you riffle a deck in any way that's not the right way, you're dealing damage to your opponents cards.  Since lots, and I mean 90% of all people by lots, of people don't know how to riffle the right way, it gets a bad name.  Most players don't like their deck to be riffled.

Even if your opponent is stacking their deck, you can keep it from working.  Just cut their deck.  If you don't, then you deserve to lose to a cheater IMO.

No matter what you say riffle shuffling cards does wear them.

 It's like I said before, preforming the bend test on your cards 2-4 times before every game.  Even if you do riffle the right way it will add up.
(3n)y
n=the number of games played per year
y=the number of years that one card may have been played

[The Atog Lord]

As for "stacking" your deck:
Basically, between rounds in a tournament, you are allowed to alphabetize your deck if you want, so long as it is suficiently randomized when you present it to an opponent.

The issue becomes, how do you make sure that their deck is sufficiently randomized? Unless I have some compelling reason to, I hate picking up my opponent's deck and just shuffling it. However, I have no problem asking my opponent to shuffle his or her own deck more.

While it is my normal habbit to just cut, when I do shuffle my opponent's deck, I've used two techniques. Pile shuffling can wreck stacked decks. I have also caught an opponent with less than sixty cards doing this, which is an added bonus. The other is the very same shuffle I use on my own decks: just cut the deck, then drop one half into the other half. Repeat, making sure that you don't leave the same cards on top the entire time. These both minimize damage to the cards.

(BTW, being uncomfortable shuffling my opponent's deck applies only in Type One. If you sit down across from me in any other format, prepare to have your cards shuffled a lot).

[herby]

from my experiences...

asking your opponent to riffle shuffle seems like a good idea.  pile shuffling is also always a good option.

worrying about players that are offended by shuffling their deck is ridiculus.  players should understand that sufficient randomization is important to keeping everyone playing a fair game.

[Shades]

I actually know many people who would kill you if you just grab their deck and do a riffle shuffle...and pile shuffling after each fetchlands costs a lot of time, so normally I just cut my opponents deck. :/

[Comrade]

I wouldn't touch an opponent's deck without permission. What if they blame you for bending a black lotus or something? Better to call the judge over if you think they did a shifty shuffle. And even though pile shuffling seems dorky I think its a great way to shuffle. Just takes longer.

[Razvan]

I think the best shuffle for this is when you pick up the bottom half in one hand, and start doing a normal shuffle (put the top third of the bottom half on top of the top half, than the middle third, then finally the last third... do this for a bit, and not always that precisely...

Doesn't damage them at all (really), it's polite shuffling... etc...

I play in toploaders, and I rifle shuffle with those, and I only get pissed off if my opponent rifleshuffles those for 5 minutes and doesn't know how to do it properly (and drops the cards, etc... ).

[SliverKing]

I dont see what the fascination is with the riffle shuffling...  except to really annoy your opponent.  I dont like anyone touching my cards at all, and I certainly dont want anyone bending them.  
I accept that we have to have shuffling, and I think its a good thing. But this whole 'riffle' shuffle thing seems to me to be a bunch of assholes trying to ruin other peoples cards instead of just using side shuffles or pile shuffles.  
I"ll drop out of a tournament before I let some 17 year old pothead play "vegas-dealer" with my alpha power.  I go through a great deal of effort to randomize my cards, in front of my opponent, and if they wnat to further pile or side shuffle them, thats fine.  But to watch me go through all that effort and then attempt to destroy my cards, makes me want to jump across the table.

[effang]

^ exactly. I hate letting people touch my cards. Not all magic players are dirty oily boys, but once in a while, you find/play against those few people that have never heard of soap or shampoo. on top of that they want to rifle my deck? i don't think so. i never understood what's the fascination with riffle shuffle anyways. the only difference between that and dropping the cards into each other is the amount of time it takes.

there is a reason people proxy even if they don't need to...

[Toad]

To all the people who dont want their opponent to riffle shuffle their deck : never ever play in Extended or Standard (aka. "real Magic").

[KSesler]

I have to agree with everyone else that just grabbing your opponents deck and shuffling it without permission is extremely disrespectful, expecially when they take little care in the shuffling they do.

From observing the people who do this sort of thing, almost without exception they strike me as the sort of people that will be spending most of the rest of their life in and out of prisons (social misfits who have difficulty functioning in society in general).

The first thought that always goes through my mind when someone does this to my own deck is to snap the person's neck (and I've never met a Magic player with whom I feel I would have difficulty accomplishing this.)
However, being a rational human being, I can control my more primal thoughts, and usually ask my opponent to either table shuffle my cards, or call a judge to shuffle the cards.

On the subject of my opponent's insufficient/stacked shuffling of his own deck, generally asking him to shuffle a bit more is enough.
If not, I usually do pile shuffles (3 piles if I really think he stacked his deck).

[wuaffiliate]

I drop riffle shuffle my opponent's cards, with no force. But generally ill always take it into two piles and just side shuffle them together mulitple times. Then i cut their deck after they are fine with it, and i cut my deck after they shuffle it.

You are there to play, not to be a bitch and complain about your cards, having your deck pimped out does not gives you more leniance when it comes to your opponent shuffling/handling your cards.

On that note i riffle shuffle my deck, and no, not drop riffle, full on normal riffle shuffling. If you do it correctly your cards do not get damaged, but people seem to think so.

EDIT:

You people fail to realise that i have every right to shuffle your deck after you have finnished. It doesnt matter if you think its a form of disrespect, I DONT TRUST YOU, so i will shuffle you deck until i am statisfied.

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

If I was in a standard or extended tourney, my opponent can BEND MY DECK IN HALF for all I care, and i riffle other peoples decks in non t1 formats.

[Razvan]

I agree that people that think it's disrespectful that others shuffle their deck need to relax a bit. Shuffling is not only legal, it's necessary. Often, I don't care, but sometime I do.

The point is, there's way to shuffle that are just disrespectful.

1) Ask before doing any particular style.
2) Do it gently.
3) If your opponent asks you to not shuffle their deck a certain way, either change it, or call a judge (if it's reasonable).

If you shuffle my deck violently, I will stop you and ask not to do so. If you continue to do so, I will physically stop you from doing so. If you think that I will not risk getting into a fist fight, then try your luck.

Note: I never had a problem with my opponent doing this. There have been some more... tough shuffles, so to speak, but they always were more careful after asking them. I don't think that I ever needed to intervene in this.

This is a huge investment, and bending a Lotus can cost you upwards of $200-$600, depending, and all through the carelessness or viciousness of others.

[Whatever Works]

To all the people who dont want their opponent to riffle shuffle their deck : never ever play in Extended or Standard (aka. "real Magic").

Yes, but the point is that decks in extended and standard arent worth $4000.

[Kerz]

That is the same thing as a riffle, in the sense that the 2 piles go into each other at about a 1:1 ratio- exept that it DOESN'T destroy your opponent's cards. This is the best way to shuffle, period. That isn't opinion, it's fact.

When I am playing swiss, I do that shuffle three times and then cut the deck before giving it back. In top eights or whatever, I usually pile shuffle their deck in addition to this.

If you are paranoid about cheating, pile shuffle their deck before doing the pictured shuffle a few times. Then cut. It is then perfectly randomized.

In other formats where the decks arn't worth quadruple digits, I riffle, as it is accepted.

[KSesler]

Razvan:

You are correct that there is a right and wrong way to go about shuffling someone else's deck.
I don't think most of us have an issue with an opponent shuffling if it is done right. (I certainly don't).

I also think that the opponent should show at least the tiniest bit of courtesy by saying he would like to shuffle the deck, rather than to just grab the deck and go nuts shuffling it.

Unfortunately, most of the yahoos the posters are referring to can't even spell courtesy, let alone practice it.

[DavidHernandez]

SliverKing Said:
I go through a great deal of effort to randomize my cards, in front of my opponent, and if they wnat to further pile or side shuffle them, thats fine

I find that most players do a great job of shuffling their deck. I don't worry about those people and I will simply cut the deck. This accounts for over 95% of my matches.

The decks I shuffle are usually the ones that I recognize as being set up (or I felt their shuffle "wasn't good enough", or was questionable).

I think from now on I will pile shuffle and then do the careful "drop-riffle" a couple of times (as shown in Kerz' pictures). I believe this will randomize any deck to the point that I won't worry about a set up.

After you do any shuffling of an opponents deck, don't complain when you lose. I got really pissed off at myself one time...I shuffled the opponent's deck and the game was absurd. He drew cards 4 to 1 against me, had an answer to everything I did, and apologized politely after raping me.  My fault? Yep. But I had to admit that his deck was randomized.

@Kerz: So, did you take pictures 2 and 3 by holding the camera in your mouth and using your eyelids to press the shutter button? Nice job by the way. I also notice there's a bottle of Tabasco Sauce on your table, but there is no food. Do you just drink Tabasco out of the bottle? I heard that about you, but want to confirm it...

Dave.

[Jacob Orlove]

Keep in mind that even in 5-proxy events, people may be BORROWING POWER CARDS. Even if they'd ordinarily be fine with you riffling their deck, they have a legitimate obligation to the lender to return those cards in the condition they were borrowed. Damaging those cards doesn't just cost that person money, and they have every right to be extremely offended if you riffle their deck without permission.