Shuffling the Opponent's Deck: Serious Discussion

[dandan]

News flash: If you suspect/know your opponent "mana weaved", performing a shuffle that will "screw" them is cheating. You're stacking their deck. CALL A JUDGE.

This is a true.  There was a discussion a few months ago on the dci judges mailing list about this very topic.  After a lot of dissension, it was determined that if you 3-pile shuffle your opponent when you suspect him of mana-weaving, you are cheating, too.

The verdict was that even though you know your opponent is breaking the rules, using that knowledge to manipulate your opponent's deck, to non-randomize it, is in itself a form of cheating on your part.  So, if you see your opponent doing this, just call a judge and get your opponent dq'd instead.  If you 3-pile shuffle, then you both might get dq'd.

Katzby

I just can't express how wrong this verdict is. If my opponent mana weaves, according to the rules they get a game loss. Now if I suspect mana weaving I could call a judge but I might be wrong and judges would get annoyed with this if everyone did it. Or I could do a 3 pile shuffle (or 2). Now if they mana weaved, instead of a game loss they get to play a game where the chances of them winning is reduced. How am I cheating? How can I possibly get an advantage? (compare and contrast Game loss/No action -> reduced chance of winning/No action)
If they didn't mana weave they get a randomised deck.

In addition, if I shiffle in such a way that a randomised deck becomes a randomised deck (i.e. any method) then I am carrying out my obligation under the rules. If I use the same method and it turns a non-randomised deck into a non-randomised deck that is the fault and resposibility of the cheat who handed it to me.

Do I have to stop at Green traffic lights now in case some jerk jumps a Red? (note I actually DO look, just in case, driving in Slovakia does that to you). I would be pretty p-ed off if a policeman booked me for going through a green light if someone who jumped a Red went into me.

[Godder]

Link to these studies.  The method of mashing a side of the deck in to the other side is mathematically identical to riffling, but without the added bonus of being able to watch where the sleeves meet.

http://mathworld.wolfram.com/Shuffle.html
http://mathworld.wolfram.com/RiffleShuffle.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuffling
http://www.kibble.net/magic/magic09.php
http://www.scc.ms.unimelb.edu.au/discday/dyk/shuff.html

These are more definitions of shuffling than anything else, but they refer to the study in question. I remember watching an article on "Beyond 2000", an Australian science TV show from the 80's and 90's, which summarised the research in question (by a magician turned mathematician, Persi Diaconis).

The pile shuffle is not a randomization technique, but a method to dissolve clumps of sticky cards. Cards are arranged in piles by putting the top card from the deck in turn on one of several piles. Then the piles are on top of each other. This ensures that cards that were next to each other are now separated.

This is a direct quote from Wikipedia, but it's mentioned elsewhere as well. It's also worth noting that the last of the 5 links says that 2500 overhand shuffles are required to randomise a deck of 52 playing cards (pass!).

In any case, the bottom line is that riffle shuffling or push shuffling, which is mathematically identical to riffling, but softer (it's the method photographed earlier in the thread), are the only shuffling methods which can be relied upon to randomise a deck in the time given. Therefore, if you don't riffle or push shuffle, you're cheating.

However, if people have the right to riffle shuffle, they also have the responsibility of learning how to minimise damage to someone else's deck.

[SliverKing]

I'm not sure where this conversation took a turn and people decided that you were being a jerk for shuffling.   In casual play or testing, yeah thats pretty insulting, but at a tournament its in the rules.  So before I go on a tirade about riffle shuffling, let me make it clear I expect my deck to be shuffled when I present it.

HOWEVER,  bending my cards with your greasy chubby fingers is the surest way to get the shit kicked out of you.  Kerz showed how easily you can get a good shuffle without bending the cards, why is there even any more discussion on this? I"ll tell you why... because some people dont have any social skills at all.  Because it makes them feel like abig macho man to manhandle someone else's deck and then claim that its "their right".  I dont know if a regional/cultural thing, or maybe a maturity issue; but at my age, and where I'm from, you are respectful to strangers and their property.

When my opponent shuffles my deck I dont get offended... odds are excellent that they dont know me. THey dont know my passionate hatred of cheaters... thats fine.  Its part of the rules and of tournament play. Go ahead and shuffle my already randomised deck.   But if they disrespect my deck and its owner my roughing up the cards, you can be damned sure thats not going to fly.

As for anti-weave pile shuffling, I can say that I disagree with this ruling entirely for the reasons outlined above.  If I put the deck into th 3 piles and then do a quick overhand shuffle for every opponent, how am I to be penalized because one of my opponents had mana-woven before the round?   Without knowledge of the opponents library, any manipulation I do is random.   Unless they can show that I knew my opponent had every third card as land, then how have I cheated?   If I knew clearly I'd have called a judge; but do judges want every player in the tournament calling for a deckcheck EVERY GAME of EVERY ROUND? I dont think so.  The system would grind to a halt.  
I'd go further and say a good rule of thumb would be any behavior a player engages in that doesnt affect honest players but cripples cheaters is legitimate in my book.  I want cheaters out of my game, by any means necessary.

[Kerz]

Link to these studies. The method of mashing a side of the deck in to the other side is mathematically identical to riffling, but without the added bonus of being able to watch where the sleeves meet.

This is the exact point I am trying to make. The method I showed is the same EXACT thing as "riffling", sans the fact that it doesn't bend your cards. If you didn't notice, I even tried to get this point across in the original post.

These are the facts. There is absoutley no reason for shuffling an opponent's deck in a manner in which their cards will be damaged. Why would you do that, besides deliberately being an asshole? There IS no argument for riffling:

Method I showed :  Riffle Shuffling is a relationship of strict superiority. There are zero reasons why riffling is better, period.

[Godder]

These are the facts. There is absoutley no reason for shuffling an opponent's deck in a manner in which their cards will be damaged. Why would you do that, besides deliberately being an asshole? There IS no argument for riffling.

What you're referring to is called Push Shuffling, apparently, and I have no problem with that method, which is why I included it with riffle shuffling as being acceptable. I'd add that someone who abuses their right to riffle/push shuffling by doing so roughly to play 'mind games' with their opponent is effectively engaging in unsportsmanlike conduct, and should be given the appropriate penalties.

When I shuffle my deck at the beginning of a game, I start with a pile shuffle (10 lots of 6 to check all cards are there), then push shuffle eight times, with the occasional overhand shuffle thrown in for good measure. During games, I leave it at a cut for theirs and a quick push shuffle for mine.

[Razvan]

I just can't express how wrong this verdict is. If my opponent mana weaves, according to the rules they get a game loss.

I don't think this is correct. There is nothing in the rules about mana weaving, only about insufficient randomization.

If someone mana weaves, and then shuffles properly, you could call a judge over to deck check, but unless he/she really was sloppy shuffling, you will not be able to see the evidene of the weaving.

I think it's pointless to do that (both weaving and shuffling), but if some people believe it helps their deck... whatever...

[CrazyCarl]

I hate the term mana weaving.  We're Magic players, not textile workers.

Mana weaving IS stacking your deck.  You know the order of your cards.  You may not know WHICH cards they are, but you know WHERE they are.

THAT IS STACKING YOUR DECK.

THAT IS CHEATING.

If you knowingly do a 3 pile shuffle to use an opponent's stacking job to your favor YOU are stacking their deck.  Sure, you can do that before every match, but a good cheater would be able to easily lie their way out of it:

"Judge, he must have seen the order of my deck while I was shuffling and used the appropriate pile shuffle to take advantage of that".  The judge will check the deck.  You will get DQed.  I unfortunately am not familiar with penalties at all RELs, but it's a serious offence.

Just do the right thing and CALL A JUDGE.  They won't get annoyed, that's what they're there to do.  If they get annoyed they shouldn't be on the judging staff in the first place and you should talk to the TO/Head Judge about it so that they aren't involved in running future events.

Just use your heads.

Opponent stacking: Cheating
You stacking: Cheating

Same penalty, but you run the risk of suffering the penalties whilst your opponent gets a free win.

[wuaffiliate]

You know what will stop your opponent's stacking from having any use?

1) Push shuffle 3 times
2) Cut 3 times / Side Shuffle (same effect)
3) Riffle shuffle 3 times (yes lightly, with absolutely no force)
4) Repeat this process 3 times

That is what i do, and i had no idea i did until i was playing some random games yesterday and realised it was all sub concious from playing so much. that is my shuffling ritual before every game i play, in casual i'll only do it once or twice.

Also i dont pile shuffle, although i should, just to count the cards, i'll start this practice.

[dicemanx]

Mana weaving IS stacking your deck. You know the order of your cards. You may not know WHICH cards they are, but you know WHERE they are.

THAT IS STACKING YOUR DECK.

Your opponent can do whatever he likes with his deck, even "mana weaving", sorting by fours, sorting by alphabetical order etc, so long as the deck is sufficiantly randomized within the time alotted before presenting it to the opponent.

If you don't think that your opponent randomized his deck sufficiently after weaving or anything else, *then* you can call a judge.

[Azhrei]

It's not counting cards if you do it in your head.

I think it's impossible for anyone to claim that they don't stack their deck ***to some extent***. If you interact with your cards at any point, that's what you're doing. You know, because you put them there, where every card in that deck is. If you're shuffling them, you know where they've gone. It's impossible not to, at least on some level. Your brain is much smarter than you are. Unless you have a machine shuffle for you, you stack it. Even then, if you watch the cards the whole time, you know where things are. You have to. It's impossible not to know.

Everybody is Rain Man to some degree. That's just the way it is, whether you do it on purpose or not. There is no such thing as luck. People who consistently get bad draws do it to themselves, whether they want to or not. The reverse is true as well. Some people are Thanos, some people are Longshot.

I've often said that the deck is what matters most-- I should say that the deck and the subconscious desire to win/belief in the desert of victory of the player are what matter. Magic is much, much less about luck and much, much more about hundreds of controllable interactions that are influenced in ways that we don't always realize.

A friend of mine and I, years ago at a kitchen table, had a contest to see who could cheat more and who would get caught more. We both knew the other one was trying to cheat, and both were trying to catch him while cheating successfully ourselves.  Every time we got away with something, we'd keep track and compare notes at the end.

What was strange was that after a while, we noticed that our games started to look like they always had, since our ways of cheating had to be very subtle since our every move was being monitored. We stopped being able to catch each other because the obvious stuff had stopped.  We eventually came to the conclusion that either our cheating was cancelling each other out entirely, or that a match of two players cheating and being very subtle about it looks exactly like a normal game, even to the people doing the cheating.

We ultimately realized that we weren't doing anything differently than we always had been, but were paying more attention to the game itself. For example, he became very good at simply watching me shuffle and then cutting my deck so Balance was at the bottom. Every time. Once I figured this out, I starting paying attention to where Balance was and then threw Mystical Tutor where he was most likely to cut to keep Balance from me.  Not looking at the card faces, not doing anything other than paying attention and keeping track of where the cards were and where they went in a giant game of 120 Card Monte. Whenever I played after that (this was in maybe 1996) I had to make a conscious effort not to look at my opponent's deck during shuffling or I'd know too much.

In the end, I won. I lied about how many times I cheated.  

The final lesson we learned, however, was to always play as if your opponent is cheating.  It does nothing to the innocent, and I have won SO MANY games in my career by catching cheaters and then fucking them with their own cheat.

There is a lot to this game that no one talks about, realizes, or admits. If you're going to catch a cheater, you need to learn how they're doing it.

[Matt]

I dont know if a regional/cultural thing, or maybe a maturity issue; but at my age, and where I'm from, you are respectful to strangers and their property.

Southerners are awesome.

When did people get the idea that a Magic card is supposed to last forever?

[kirdape3]

When those players shell out $2000+ for their decks.  I can buy a car for that much, or house myself for eight months.

You have to shuffle, but being so grossly inconsiderate as to willfully damage someone's cards (I've seen riffle shuffles so horrible that the cards are irretrivably warped after three or four shuffles) is piss-poor.

[DavidHernandez]

I've learned a lot from this thread so far.

I think Wu's method is the one I will follow from now on:

1) Push shuffle 3 times
2) Cut 3 times / Side Shuffle (same effect)
3) Riffle shuffle 3 times (yes lightly, with absolutely no force)
4) Repeat this process 3 times

it all happens within the 3 minutes allowed and it appears to solve randomization problems without being rude. It also solves the problem of damaging cards.

JACO: Yeah, I'll shuffle everyone's deck from now on.

The post that showed the rules requiring a shuffle of the opponents deck was interesting. I didn't know about that.

Dave.

[Korhil]

Why is it that people who play Magic (A card game) fail to see the importance in being able to shuffle well?
Seriously, what kind of card player doesnt know how to shuffle - its just stupid the amount of Magic players that cant.

I always find it amusing (and annoying) to sit down and watch my opponent pile 'shuffle' [Here on, pile stacking] and fail to ever riffle their own deck. It tells you they can't 'actually' shuffle. Thats great information, for someone who wants to abuse it. If you opponent cant shuffle, it means they wont be able to know what your doing with your deck.

Its annoying cos it wastes so much time. They might as well have not bothered. In the time they spent pile stacking, I'll be Riffling & Overhand shuffling my own deck many times over (even with Beta power in it) with the intention of doing much the same to their deck. Whatever they were trying to achieve by piling stacking (I can only assume they are stacking it - why else would you use such a pathetic method) will be lost after I finished 'actually' shuffling it. Anyone who thinks "Pile Shuffling" is shuffling - is just trying to stack a deck in some way.

I get sick of people who take my deck and just 3 pile stack it, they might as well just not bother, it wastes so much time to achieve nothing. A random pile of cards stays random, but they wasted more than a minute getting there.

Also, 3 piles, the only reason to use so few piles would be in an attempt to ruin an opponents deck. Anyone that insults me by 3 pile stacking my deck, indicating they think im cheating, is sure as hell going to get me shuffling their deck the whole time they waste piling my deck.

You NEVER need to pile shuffle a deck to get it being random, nor to break up mana clumps. I take a deck from being set out on a table from being built to simply Riffling & Overhand shuffling and get a nice mix of cards through the deck. Sure, it does take a good 2-3mins or more to get it nicely split, but its quicker than pile stacking.
Even during a tournament, when I've played a long game and may have 60%+ of my mana sources in play, I'll just pick it all up and shuffle as I always do.

The things some players do that get at me the most, are the people that only pile stack their own cards, but try to then make a fumbled attempt at riffling my deck because thats what im doing to their cards.

In short, I'll let anyone that 'can' shuffle, shuffle my deck and trust they will respect the cards - I expect the same in return.
And I feel pretty insulted by anyone that clearly cant shuffle telling me I'll damage their cards with my shuffling, after they have just watched me do exactly the same with my deck.
I fail to have any real respect for a player that cant shuffle - its a funamental aspect of playing cards.

One of the best things I ever heard a judge say, after a player was talking to him about his game and saying how he failed to draw enough land, was "Shuffle more." - Brilliant.

---Korhil

[Smmenen]

For christ sakes.  How many times do we have to explan that Riffle Shuffling IS NOT Acceptable.  Side shuffling and pile shuffling are perfectly ok.

[Kerz]

For christ sakes.  How many times do we have to explan that Riffle Shuffling IS NOT Acceptable.  Side shuffling and pile shuffling are perfectly ok.

Seriously. I think this topic has run its course. I can't even comprehend how it got to six pages.  

[rvs]

Seriously. I think this topic has run its course. I can't even comprehend how it got to six pages.  

Totally agreed. It's very, very simple: Deck stacking is not allowed. You should always shuffle your opponents deck. Anyone who thinks that if your opponent shuffles your deck is disrespect, is a fucking moron. Anyone who for that reason doesn't shuffle his opponents deck, is even more stupid.

[Jacob Orlove]

Nothing anyone could post here will add to this topic. Closed.