WG hate deck....your kidding right?

[Lucentspirit]

This was a deck I had built for the most part six months ago. The main idea was to try and exploit the pariah/beloved chaplain combo in a budget deck. During play testing it did well against most every deck except for hulk which absolutely raped it (mostly because of deeds). Since Tog decks seems to have been almost non-existent lately I dusted it off, threw in some metagame hate and gave it a try.
      Although I had few expectations for the deck, it managed to top 4 in Columbus a week ago and it snagged me $50. I thought I would present it for discussion.

WG metagame hate deck AKA Jank.dec

    4 Savannah
    4 Windswept Heath
    3 Forest
    4 Plains
    1 Flooded Strand
    3 Gemstone Mine
    3 Wasteland
    2 True Believer
    2 Xantid Swarm
    4 Beloved Chaplain
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Living Wish
    1 Enlightened Tutor
    3 Rancor
    2 Crucible of Worlds
    4 Pariah
    3 Null Rod
    1 Mox Emerald
    1 Mox Pearl
    2 Damping Matrix
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    1 Worship


SB: 1 Wasteland
       2 True Believer
       2 Xantid Swarm
       1 Crucible of Worlds
       1 Damping Matrix
       1 Strip Mine
       2 Ground Seal
       1 Exalted Angel
       2 Seal of Cleansing
       1 Viridian Zealot
       1 Maze of Ith

While looking at Top 8 deck lists from some the more recent tournaments it occurred to me that non-creature based direct damage (with the exception of Fire/Ice) has become almost non-existent in the format. This makes a card like Beloved Chaplain viable. It also makes the Pariah/Chaplain combo and worship an auto-win against many decks in the current meta that simply don’t have an answer for it.
       
How this deck plays:
 
               A good part of this deck is devoted to a very typical mana disruption strategy. It uses wastelands and null rod to slow the opponent’s mana development and try to even the tempo difference between it and the powered decks in the format. I did try something new here by putting strip mine in the sideboard and using living wish to find it should my opponent be using basic lands.
                 I also use damping matrix in the deck as a hoser for many of the current decks in the meta. The only card in the deck that is affected by damping matrix is Viridian Zealot, which is strictly a wish target.
              Also, to add to the decks tempo, I used 2 on color moxen and 4 Elvish Spirit Guides. This is vital in combo match ups where a turn 1 null rod can make or break the game. I also have to add that Elvish Spirit Guide can be huge when it comes to playing against an early trinisphere.
                In aggro match ups the deck plays with pariah, swords, and beloved chaplain. The idea is to delay the opponent’s damage long enough to get a chaplain on the board and swinging. It’s best if you can follow the chaplain with a pariah, but pariah can play well on it’s own when cast on your opponents creatures. Wishing out a maze of ith, putting down a worship, or pariah on chaplain can leave you in the clear to attack without worrying about leaving creatures untapped for defense. Since the chaplain is pro-creatures he’s unblockable and coupled with rancor can become a heavy hitter fast. Chaplain is the best damage dealer in the deck (yes, I know it sounds funny), should something happen, rancor on a xantid can work just as well.
              In the combo matchup an early null rod is key. After that you need true believer vs. decks like TPS to delay the game long enough for a win. Other then that, you may need crucible/strip effects to keep the combo player from going totally broken on you. This deck just destroys dragon combo with ground seal, seal of cleansing, swords, and strip effects dragon may just be this decks easiest match-up.  
             The control match-up can be tricky, but, is definitely winnable. Simply play the deck like a weenie deck. Control decks usually only have a few threats and take time to develop. If you can resolve some early threats it’s very possible to kill them before they can establish total board dominance. Although, fall out from fish haters makes it very likely you will have a much harder match games 2 and 3.  
              I feel like this deck could be streamlined a little more. One of my biggest problems with it so far is a lack of good tutors. I’m considering a splash of black just for that reason. Also, I feel like the 2 moxen could be cut entirely from the deck making it a viable deck for the budget player.

A few more things I have to add:

Major props to Doug Linn and his girlfriend for remembering I was allergic to chocolate and bringing sugar cookies to the last Columbus tournament. Woot!

Please don't post just to tell me how much this deck sucks. I'm well aware of it's lack of typical T1 brokness. This deck is Slow and deliberate and uses a hole in the current meta to it's advantage. I'm looking for constructive advise.

                Michael Simsiter

[Tristal]

Why do you feel Gemstone Mines are superior to Brushlands?

If you want mana denial or control, especially if you feel Tog is a bad matchup, have you considered Armageddon?  Seems like this is really the final nail in the coffin for a lot of decks with your strategy, especially if you have Null Rod and/or Crucible out.

I'd love to see this deck work, GW is my favorite color combination.

[Lucentspirit]

The use of brushland had not really crossed my mind. If you have pariah on beloved chaplain and use it... that damage goes to chaplain and because it's not creature damage it would kill him.
       I did consider using armageddon but the 3W CC can be difficult to come up with at times. I found that it was best to keep casting costs at 3 or lower (worship and exalted being the only exception here) Mostly because after 3 mana is on the board your usually just recuring strip effects instead of dropping land.

[Tristal]

Good point on the Brushland, I didn't think of that.

If 3W is so hard, why run Worship?  Because it wins the game.  Well, if Armageddon resolves with a Null Rod out, that should too.  It's a total backbreaker versus control.

[MrZuccinniHead]

no choke?

[Power9man]

WG metagame hate deck AKA Jank.dec

    3 Gemstone Mine
    3 Wasteland
    2 Crucible of Worlds


SB: 1 Wasteland

Hy Michael.

I've to suggest you this:

A) if you play 2 crucible of worlds, you MUST have at least 3 Wastelands and 1 Strip mine main deck. This because the strip mine is the MVP with Crucible. you can't stay without into this deck.
My best choice would be 4 Wastelands and 1 Strip Mine Main deck.

Also, for the sideboard, i'd like to suggest you Seedtime. Since the metagame is improved with blue decks, seedtime would work great in game 2/3 against control decks. you can take a big advantage with a green time walk.

Just my 2 cents
Power9man

[Silverdragon]

@Power9man I think you missed the living wishes MD. So virtually he plays 4 strip and 7 waste main(!).

Personally I think this deck has potential in the current metagame because it has so many silverbullets that are useful on their own (aka creatures). This is definitely an improvement to the old parfait-style deck althought i can think of having problems to fight counters (excluding the xantids).

Perhaps you could include a single regrowth to get back your important hosers, when they get killed.

As for tutors I can only imagine that worldly tutor could be a good fit in this deck because of the high potential of your creatures to hose the opponent completely.

[Tristal]

Eladamri's Call is probably better than Worldly Tutor here.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Wait, I'm lost on why this is capable of winning a game against something like 4CC. If they Plow your Chaplain, your efforts are for naught and they will come in and wreck you. If you're playing against Tendrils combo, life loss is not damage, so you lose even if you miraculously get up the "combo". I don't have any faith in True Believer against Tendrils, because TPS has at least Chain of Vapor at its disposal and tons of tutors to get it.

I know you asked not to be told that the deck sucks, but I see just glaring holes in your fortress strategy, and the Open Forum is about the most competitive decks. Losing to StP = needs work.

Moved to Newbie

[serracollector]

First off, good job t8 without a deck with Welder or the Color Blue.  I did the same several months ago in Columbus at the Soldiery with R/G beatz, pissed Smemmen off  :lol:   Anway, I only have one suggestion:

RIVER BOA

I am not sure what to tak eout for him, but at least sieboard the guy.  Against TOG/BBS/Slaver/Fish he is a pwerhouse, especially with rancor (as he's unblockable also like your pro critters guy).  Also you can pariah him and just regenrate him if he is dealt lethal damage.  All around I see no reason why he is not at the very least sideboarded let alone played maindeck, EXPLAIN yourself, j/k.  Good deck and good job.

[serracollector]

It is pretty stupid that they move every deck that has any flaw in it to the newbie forum.  Hell he t8 with it in a heavy Death Long/BBS/Stax/Salver field, yet its a newbie post?  I think the TMD moderators are getting a little too anxious on their newbie post button finger.  Remember that True beleiver stops Tendrils, and so does Null Rod and so does Crucibling the land away every turn.  Thats 3 very good ways to try and slow down or stop Tendrils in order to win.  Sometimes I think the moderators just assume since the deck doesn't play blue or welder its got to suck, and thats striaght up bullshit.  TMD is getting dumb.

[Shock Wave]

Wait, I'm lost on why this is capable of winning a game against something like 4CC. If they Plow your Chaplain, your efforts are for naught and they will come in and wreck you. If you're playing against Tendrils combo, life loss is not damage, so you lose even if you miraculously get up the "combo". I don't have any faith in True Believer against Tendrils, because TPS has at least Chain of Vapor at its disposal and tons of tutors to get it.

I know you asked not to be told that the deck sucks, but I see just glaring holes in your fortress strategy, and the Open Forum is about the most competitive decks. Losing to StP = needs work.

Moved to Newbie

I think you're moving this thread a little prematurely Phil. Fish wrecks combo decks with Null Rod, and yes, it does run FOW, but this particular deck presents several other problems for combo. True Believer *is* a problem. It's not fair to say "Yeah well so-and-so deck has an answer... " because frankly, there's almost *always* an answer to problem cards. The issue at hand is how valuable the cards are when they are left unanswered. True Believer may not be enough on its own, but coupled with Null Rod it could present a serious problem. If TPS can't tutor up removal for a Rod and a True Believer pretty fast, then a couple of beaters will definitely be a sufficient clock.

Let's not shoot down *every* new deck. It's starting to get rather ridiculous.

[serracollector]

thank you for agreeing shock wave.  I have made several posts, including my r/g beatz which wnet t8 and got 1st in Findlay, and it was moved.  Like I said, TMD may as well post:

"If your deck does not play Blue or Welder, it is obviously not good enough for our curretn Vintage Meta, therefore it must be a newbie deck and shall be moved accordingly"

It's like every new religion is a cult, therefore every new magic idea is bad.

[Power9man]

@Power9man I think you missed the living wishes MD. So virtually he plays 4 strip and 7 waste main(!).

Well, i prefer to use the strip maindeck with the other waste. i don't think that using a living wish (1G) to take a land is a good choice.


Just my 2 cents
Power9man

[Jacob Orlove]

I deleted some random flames (consider this a verbal warning, ezay).

I'm moving this back into open t1, because the deck merits some serious discussion.

[Gabethebabe]

The big problem with this deck is the problem that all decks have that don´t run blue or run Workshop or can kill turn 1: you´re not capable of doing broken things, you don´t draw cards, you cannot smooth your mana curve and can´t say "NO" to your opponent´s spells.

The core cards of the deck are white (Chaplain, Pariah, Worship, True Believer) or colourless. How about: byebye green, hello blue? (which ends the idea of being budget, of course)

[Shock Wave]

The big problem with this deck is the problem that all decks have that don´t run blue or run Workshop or can kill turn 1: you´re not capable of doing broken things, you don´t draw cards, you cannot smooth your mana curve and can´t say "NO" to your opponent´s spells.

The core cards of the deck are white (Chaplain, Pariah, Worship, True Believer) or colourless. How about: byebye green, hello blue? (which ends the idea of being budget, of course)

Recall that this is a "budget deck". This is a perfectly viable budget strategy. You don't need to draw cards to resolve Null Rod and just win.  Furthermore, this deck is different, which is immediately an asset. That doesn't mean it is automatically going to win, but it definitely is intimidating when you have no idea what your opponent is playing.

The difference between this deck and fish is that this deck sacrifices a draw engine for more bombs (more crucibles, damping matrix, etc). That`s not necessarily a bad idea when we`re talking budget strategies.

[MuzzonoAmi]

With regard to Armageddon - I think that with a strategy like this you really, really want to focus on Mana denial and make the lock a secondary path to victory because of aggro's limited presence in the format. To that end, why not add the appropriate acceleration (Sol Ring, City of Traitors, etc) to support 'Geddon. Also - where is Eternal Witness? It seems like a bomb here, enabling you to reassemble your mini-combos easily. I think there's a lot of potential here, but why not look at JapPee's Survival deck and borrow a few ideas from that?

[xrobx]

It looks pretty solid and you said you t8'd at columbus or something, so it's done okay in a tourny too! congrats!!

Okay so now the basic shit, why the HELL is there no balance??  You don't have a ton of answers to blue control, but this one I believe is a must.

I don't like playing white usually, but there are some cards that are just too broken not to include.

The obvious addition of lotus is a must.  If it's budget, then you wouldn't have pearl and emerald in there anyhow.

Green offers fastbond, which is deadly in your deck.  If you worry about the cc of armageddon, with a fastbond and crucible on the board, you pay 1 life to destroy 1 land at your discretion.  It also has the obvious combo with zuran orb (too good not to include, just 1 though; null rod hurts this alot, as does damping matrix). I find that 1 extra spot for an infinite combo is well worth the slot in this deck.

My version of this.dec:

// Lands
    4  Savannah
    4  Windswept Heath
    2  Forest
    3  Wasteland
    3  Plains
    2  Flooded Strand

// Creatures
    4  Beloved Chaplain
    4  Elvish Spirit Guide
    2  True Believer
    2  Xantid Swarm

// Spells
    2  Crucible of Worlds
    1  Balance
    1  Enlightened Tutor
    1  Zuran Orb
    1  Fastbond
    1  Sol Ring
    2  Damping Matrix
    4  Living Wish
    1  Worship
    4  Swords to Plowshares
    1  Mox Pearl
    1  Mox Emerald
    3  Null Rod
    4  Pariah
    3  Rancor

// Sideboard
SB: 2  Ground Seal
SB: 1  Viridian Zealot
SB: 1  Maze of Ith
SB: 2  Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1  Exalted Angel
SB: 1  Wasteland
SB: 1  Strip Mine
SB: 1  Damping Matrix
SB: 1  Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2  Xantid Swarm
SB: 2  True Believer

[Dr. Sylvan]

Alright, here's how I see it as a longtime White Weenie/Enchantress fan. (I did get overturned, after all, by no less than the Temporal Police, so I guess I should explain a little more.)

2 True Believer
4 Beloved Chaplain
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Living Wish
3 Rancor

With a generous count, there are fourteen threats here. Less than White Weenie, but in the same size bracket and at mostly higher mana costs. So your killing speed is slower than a deck widely dismissed as awful, even with Rancor. What's making the deck so much better than WW that it is competitive? Rule out the things that didn't make WW competitive when they were first suggested for inclusion. CoW + Wasteland, while easily inserted into any WW deck, along with Null Rod, did not suddenly make it viable. Also, having StP has never been a strong argument for WW, because it doesn't have the manipulation to get it or get rid of it when it needs to.

(4 Living Wish again)
2 Xantid Swarm
4 Pariah
1 Worship

So the whole basis is Pariah or Worship buying enough time to make a slower-than-WW kill work. But Enchantress, a deck with an amazing (for nonblue) draw engine and a full boat of accel to try to play cards sooner, is terrible. Pariah doesn't buy very much time whether you're using it on the opponent's creatures or your own. Without blue, you cannot defend your defenses, so no matter what, all they have to do is find their removal in the course of 4+ turns--a Type One eternity.

I was going to make a suggestion about a different direction, but it involved changing colors and strategic outlook, so I thought better of it. The short version is: Duress is the poor man's Mana Drain. Black can shore up a lot of weaknesses in terms of defending against more powerful decks, and I suggest moving away from the "Fortress" mentality. (Seriously, far better than a Fortress deck is the 1.X-legal infinite life combo with, IIRC, Task Force.)