Mono Blue for Post Waterbury US Environment

[Smmenen]

Updated List First, then Explanation;

10/02/04

4 Ophidian
2 Morphling

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Leak
1 Misdirection
3 Counterspell

3 Back to Basics
3 Powder Keg

4 Impulse
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall

8 Island
5 Fetchland
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 LOA
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus

Sideboard:
4 Energy Flux
4 Old Man of the Sea
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Control Magic
1 Back to Basics

Explanation:

I have tested Chalice of the Void quite a bit at this point and in the final analysis, I cannot agree with its inclusion in the maindeck.  

* it is expected.  Chalice of the Void is strongest as a surprise card to shut down your opponent.  

* Mono Blue doesn't really need help shutting down Combo.  

* Powder Kegs are more important than ever.  I would consider playing four, but it's really overkill.  You need a way to take a Welder off the table.  Chalice of the Void is insane if you are going first, on the play and have two mana.  

Sideboard:
Why have I cut propoganda?

What would I arguably bring Propoganda in agianst?

* Fish: Against Fish, Old Man is actually superior.  Instead of making it so they can't attack you, Old Man beats, steals their mean and beats them with their own creatures.  Old Man can't be killed by a single Lavamancer and is very strong.

* Workshop Aggro: Against this archetype, you basically don't have enough room to bring in Propoganda in the first place.  You need all 3 BEBs and the Control Magics first.  

* Food Chain Goblins.  Propoganda is strongest against this archetype, but no better than Old Man.  If you can play Old Man, you can steal men which can block and kill their own cards - including Pro-Blue cards.  

* R/G Beats and Madness.  
Given that Old Man is a beater and basically superior, there is little reason not to use it.

I realize that Chalice stops a savage amount of cards in the format.  Chalice was definately the way to go at the Waterbury, but no longer if simply becuase Powder Keg is too important.  

The additional maindeck counterspell ups the total counterspell count to 17.  

The biggest weakness mono blue has is in the early game when it may or may not have its draw engine online yet.  For example, mono blue may play a Phid and have used it once but may have run out of countermagic.  It may be holding Wastelands and Kegs or things like that.  A turn later and the mono blue deck will be drawing lots of cards and it will turn into a hard lock.  It is in that small window that mono blue is vulnerable.  It needs to be able to stop blockers and cards like Tinker and Balance.  Upping the Counterspell count helps bolster that early game protection by increasing the chance you'll have counterspells.

[moonkhan]

What are your thoughts on Seasinger (vs the mirror, U/R Fish, non-Titan Welder.dec, etc.)? Initially I liked the idea of Vedalken Shackles but they're hardly usable in the Fish matchup unless they sb out Null Rod. They can also be welded out if you end up with a Chalice/Keg/Mox in the yard.

In particular I've been having trouble dealing with the mirror. What do you think are good cards to sb in/out? I have been in the practice of putting in an extra Powder Keg and taking out B2B for 1-2 Control Magics and a couple of Propagandas. Unfortunately so does my opponent

--Paul

(Budget question removed - Kowal)

[monSt4r]

Well, in your testing you said that Old Man is good against fish, and that's about it against Propaganda.  And what's wrong with Propaganda in the R/G matchup?  I'm not playing monoblue but I played it a long time ago, similar to your former list.
Don't you think that making room (counterspells out) for Tinker/Colossus is a nice idea?  It can even net you one keg if you want it so bad...

You need to work on your typing.  I cleaned it up as best I could this time, but please take care of this kind of stuff yourself in the future.
- Kowal[/color]

[Covetous]

I have been playing with Chalice Blue (i.e. this exact deck with -3 cspell -1 mis-d +4 chalice) and I have found the chalices to be strong regardless of whether they are a surprise or not.  If you are concerned about the lack of surprise, side them out for something that is more of a surprise.  Chalice allows you to use your PKeg to nuke the first welder and then  prevent additional welders from appearing.  Remember that you have 3 pkegs and they have 4 welders and god help them if they overextend into a keg--smart players rarely do that.  Against decks such as Titan, resolving chalice at 1 is key to winning the game.  If you don't have to worry about welders, you can concentrate on their auxiliary threats which are easier to counter.  Admittedly, my playtesting is stilted by running the deck against only a couple of others (stax and titan primarily), but chalice does shine in those matches.  As an aside, chalice = 1 and then chalice = 2 can often be game against oath if you can prevent oath #1.  Sure, chalice at 2 shuts you down, but it can be worth it.

[Smmenen]

Well, in your testing you said that Old man is good against fish, and thats about it vs. Propaganda...and what's wrong in Propaganda in R/G matchup. I'm not playin' mono U but i played it a long time ago, similar to your former list.
Don't you think that making room (counterspells out) for tinker/colossus is a nice idea ? It can even net you one keg if u want it so bad...

Propoganda isn't bad against r/g but Old Man is just as good if not better in most circumstances.  

I don't think any mono blue player can't afford to play Chalice for 2, even against Oath.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

[monSt4r]

Propoganda isn't bad against r/g but Old Man is just as good if not better in most circumstances.  

I don't think any mono blue player can't afford to play Chalice for 2, even against Oath.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think you may be wrong.  When you play chalice for 2, they are dead.  You however are not.  That's the math, chalice on 2 just make themem cry.
And Colossus?
And what's more, Propaganda can be put out with some difficulites, while Old Man can still be shot. And don't you think that chalice on 1, makes a lot of decks worry and phids become kinda indestructible?

Ugh.  I tried to fix this one too.  Shortenings like "r" and "u" are not for use on TheManaDrain.  In addition, if you're going to use ellipses, please learn to use them correctly.  Lastly, roughly two thirds of your sentences make no sense at all.
- Kowal[/color]

[wuaffiliate]

The least you can do is eliminate the "r" and "u" from your posts. Put that extra effort towards posting, it might makes your posts worth reading.

[mrieff]

Are you only using Control Magic against decks with artifact creatures? If that is the case, you could also use Domineer.

[Gabethebabe]

As an aside, chalice = 1 and then chalice = 2 can often be game against oath if you can prevent oath #1.  Sure, chalice at 2 shuts you down, but it can be worth it.

Why are you mentioning Oath? Nobody plays it. So who cares about this match-up?

Maybe you say: Forbidden Orchard. Well, try it. I bet it will suck a golfball through a gardenhose (in stead of the baseball it can suck now).

[Mana Duane]

Maybe you say: Forbidden Orchard. Well, try it. I bet it will suck a golfball through a gardenhose (in stead of the baseball it can suck now).

My testing has shown this to be true

Steve:
Your original post said you'd gone to 17 counter spells, but i can only count 16 in the post. Are you running 4 Vanilla counter? How do you find the misdirection? I can see that it can be used as a 5th force during counter wars in a control matchup, but there are also matches were it will be dead (stax for example) and without brainstorm you have no way to get rid of it. Given that i expect mono U to own the control matchups i was wondering if the misdirction was worth it.

James

[Gabethebabe]

I´d say one dead card in the Workshop matchup (well, it is dead only if you have no FoW to pitch it to) is worth the misdirected stuff you can do in other matchups.

In control match-ups the fact that you run MisD gains you LOTSA strategical advantage, because opponent will not know when he can cast Ancestral. And he will do it wrong or maybe too late.

[TheRock]

On a similar topic to the re-addition of counterspells to the deck, would changing a Counterspell to a Miscalculation be a viable move to make?

I find having five 1U c-spells to be much more productive than having only four since in most cases I need to have good countermagic to start.  I find myself taking fewer mulligans with this around, but it is obviously a horrible counter after a few turns (where it still isn't worthless since I can pitch it or cycle it).

[VGB]

With your sideboard being half control effects, why do you not have slots for the best one of all, Gilded Drake?

You can nab 7/10's, 11/11's, 4/5 flying lifegain, and others all for half the cost of Control Magic, and faster/without the restrictions of Old Man.

[Since97]

Gilded Drake is horrible for this kind of build. You're only vulnerable for a short amount of time, during that time only small creatures (aka goblin welder/grim lavamancer) could get through, that is why old man of the sea is better. 7/10's and the big boys you would just counter.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Gilded Drake is horrible for this kind of build. You're only vulnerable for a short amount of time, during that time only small creatures (aka goblin welder/grim lavamancer) could get through, that is why old man of the sea is better. 7/10's and the big boys you would just counter.

They are usually welded or tinkered in quickly...

Effects that steal creatures obviouly do more than merely dealing with them.  Counter a jug and you neutralize a threat.. control magic one and you deal with their threat and create one of your own that can beat them down or trade with another creature.

That said, I don't really like gilded drake... I think it should be relegated to decks like madness or fish that need low curve anwers to big fat.  Control magic, or as was previouly mentioned, domineer, I think is superior.

Chalice: I'm not sure about cutting chalice as it gave mono-U another huge hosing bomb.  On the other hand, it was quite conditional and not as useful when drawn later (as well as sometimes being completely ineffective depending on opponent's draw).  As you said, additonal counterspells should strengthen the defenses and improve consistency and redundacy- the main stengths of mono-U aside from it's mana base and hosers.

[effang]

I´d say one dead card in the Workshop matchup (well, it is dead only if you have no FoW to pitch it to) is worth the misdirected stuff you can do in other matchups.

In control match-ups the fact that you run MisD gains you LOTSA strategical advantage, because opponent will not know when he can cast Ancestral. And he will do it wrong or maybe too late.

I don't believe this is true. In most cases, MisD can be a huge play, but opponents will play through it. There is nothing else you can do, and it is the best course of action.  This is unless you can completely read an opponent with MisD.

[Smmenen]

On a similar topic to the re-addition of counterspells to the deck, would changing a Counterspell to a Miscalculation be a viable move to make?

I find having five 1U c-spells to be much more productive than having only four since in most cases I need to have good countermagic to start.  I find myself taking fewer mulligans with this around, but it is obviously a horrible counter after a few turns (where it still isn't worthless since I can pitch it or cycle it).

Potentially.  If it tests well, let us know.

[JuJu]

How many times on Average do you mulligan with Mono Blue?

[Covetous]

Since this is basically a metagame deck, I'm not convinced that you should tech against the mirror unless you realistically expect more people to be playing it than another deck that is more threatening.  I mean, the match is often going to be either 1-0 or draw because mono-U control is slow by nature and the mirror is molasses.  It's cute to run mirror tech and it can help win the match sometimes, but good gameplay is a better bet.

[Kowal]

Thread Cleaned.[/color]

I deleted a TON of horrible posts.  There were some that were simply stupid, some that were mindless flames, some that had no reason to be here, and some that had no reason to stay once the stupid posts and flames were gone.

In the future, please don't drag good threads down with suggestions like running Scragnoth in the monoblue mirror or boarding in five cost sorcery speed effects against leaks and drains.dec.

If there are any questions or complaints, feel free to PM me.

Moved back to open.[/color]

[Since97]

Kowal How many Decrees/Tundra's did you play in the mirror match vs mono

[Kowal]

A solo tundra, and two decrees.  But that should have been a PM.

[Smmenen]

How many times on Average do you mulligan with Mono Blue?

Rarely.  If mulliganing, it's becuase I have no blue mana, or, I am strategically mulligan against Combo.