New Wrath of God

[Upinthe]

Souless Eternity 3WW
Sorcery

Destroy all creature cards that are in play. They can't be regenerated.


I noticed that we really don't have a big  wrath effect in the Master List under white, so here is a card that should help with that. The fact that it mentions cards spares animated stuff and tokens.

Karmic Punishment 3WW
Sorcery

Destroy all creature cards that are in play. They can't be regenerated. (Token creatures and permanents that have turned into creatures aren't creature "cards".)

[DavidHernandez]

Hmm. Since what you created is actual Wrath all over again, what if you changed it to read something like:

"Put 2 -1/-1 tokens on each creature in play. Those creatures cannot be regenerated."

Dave.

[Jebus]

Hmm. Since what you created is actual Wrath all over again...

His isn't exactly the same as Wrath of God.  It spares animated non-creature cards as well as tokens.

Although I'm not sure if this should cost more or less than the original Wrath of God.

[neppy]

Referencing "creature cards" seems like it can cause a lot of confusion to me.

How does this interact with cards like soul sculptor?  Is a creature still a creature card after being turned into an enchantment?  What about enchantments animated into creatures?

This would destroy a clone of a token but not the token correct?
What happens to a clone of an artifact that was animated with animate artifact?  Is it still creature card?

[dandan]

I think that Wrath effects should be clear and simple. There should also be a reason behind it. Taking Retribution of the Meek as an example why not

Destroy all non-white creatures. They cannot be regenerated.

Turn away from the dark, lest you change to salt

5 mana should be enough, it would make WW strong but doesn't actually help it against combo or control and WW has historically been good against other creature decks anyway. Note that this is weaker than Wrath unless you are running White creatures so is really only useful in WW or White-based control that runs White creatures.

This is far more flavourful than destroying creature 'cards'.

And lo, He looked down and smote the cardboard ones, sparing only the multiple rubber dinosaur Thallid tokens.

Even as an Atheist, that appears unlikely. Nobody should use dinosaurs to represent Thallids!

[Laurie Cheers]

The original effect would be written "destroy all non-token creatures".

Er... dandan, your version is almost Plague Wind. That's completely sick for 5 mana.

[dandan]

Forcing someone to play White creatures is a pretty sick downside. In tournament play is it stronger than Control Magic (now available at 5 mana)? Green has Overrun, Red gets a 4 point Earthquake, Black has Extinction at that cost (and Void if you throw in Red). 5 mana buys you big effects and how often is it better than Wrath?

Remember Guan Yi's 1000-Li March or Righteous Fury? They could act as one way Wraths regardless of what creatures you had.

The history of Wrath variations is littered with cards that didn't kill everything, usually confining them to Block. Paying 5 mana to not kill a Wild Mongrel sucks.

I agree that Wizards would cost the card at 6 but that doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

[Jebus]

The original effect would be written "destroy all non-token creatures".

Not if he delibrately wants it to not affect aninmated non-creature cards.

It would be a bit confusing to players who don't catch the subtle difference though.

[Jacob Orlove]

2WWW would be fine for destroying all nonwhite creatures.

[Bram]

U-huh. But what's wrong with the 'creature card' thing? I like that. It could work well in a set that gives lots of tokens. It should never cost less that Wrath, and probably not the same, either. The cost you originally posted is fine.

[Jacob Orlove]

The creature card wording works, but it's not something all players will understand, especially with the promo token cards. Non-token creatures would work better, but still makes no sense in terms of flavor.

[Laurie Cheers]

Jebus: "nontoken X" is the modern wording for "X card". See the oracle wording for Mask of the Mimic or Infernal Tribute, for example.

[Jebus]

Jebus: "nontoken X" is the modern wording for "X card". See the oracle wording for Mask of the Mimic or Infernal Tribute, for example.

See the wording for "Dual Nature" for what I'm talking about.  Specifically including cards that aren't actually creatures.

I understand what you are saying, but perhaps you are not understanding what I am saying.

[Upinthe]

The creature card wording works, but it's not something all players will understand, especially with the promo token cards. Non-token creatures would work better, but still makes no sense in terms of flavor.

Its something a bit of reminder text could easily fix. I think its clear enough, and I don't want to lose the ability for this to interact with stuff like Opalescence and March of the Machines as well as tokens.

Now, what does everyone think of the name?

[Jacob Orlove]

Yeah, but there's no flavor that makes sense for that effect. Unless an artifact creature somehow has a soul and a spirit token doesn't. The card just isn't "intuitive" in the way a wrath effect should be.

[dandan]

I second that! There should be a reason for such an effect. For example, you might consider a 'heat-seeker' type killing effect which kills creatures and machines but could miss objects animated by magic. It is hard to think of God making such an oversight although Akroma or any number of other Wizards flavour crutches could.

I accept that my suggestion was considerably different to the original, I was basically trying to show what a Wrath of God variant should look like - simple and logical.

[Bram]

OK, so tokens are usually really small d00ds, right? And almost by definition, they're (virtually?) all vanilla.

So how about this for flavor:

Punish the Proud
(card text)
The meek shall inherit the earth.

That ought to fix all flavor concerns. It makes sense that tokens would survive this.

[dandan]

It depends what sort of tokens you are pumping out. I've seem 19/19 tokens and you are currently suggesting a card that produces 5/5, 4/4 etc tokens. It makes no sense at all to spare those and not a Thallid.

It also makes little sense to spare animated Tomes, Factories, Statues but kill other artifact creatures.

The card is fine power-wise but killing creature cards somehow doesn't seem very logical. I think references to the mechanics of playing Magic should be left out if at all possible.

[Bram]

My card isn't making 4/4 tokens anymore

19/19 tokens are a rare exception, and obviously my suggested flavor doesn't make all situations logical. MaRo wrote a good piece on why that's inevitable. The game allows for Cobra tokens to be equipped with a Sword of Firce and Ice. You can't explain something like that away. You can just hope that it makes sense in MOST situations, which is what I believe my suggestion does. And as a final thought I offer that 'meek' may relate more to the 'vanilla-ness' of tokens than their size, whereas 'proud' could mean 'having all sorts of fancy-pants abilities'.

[DavidHernandez]

Punish the Proud
(card text)
The meek shall inherit the earth.

Dude. That sounds SO cool.

dave.

[Jacob Orlove]

Retribution of the Meek already exists, and it destroys creatures with power 4 or more.

[Bram]

Your point being we can't use the English word 'meek' in flavor texts anymore?

[Jacob Orlove]

No, just that they've already used that flavor as the basis for a wrath effect, and it was not at all like this card.

[Upinthe]

Okay, I changed the name to "Karmic Punishment", which should make more sense. Anything that isn't a creature card is never really "alive" is it? So it wouldn't be subject to supernatural repercussions in the same way. Its a stretch for artifact creatures, but I think thats as good as it gets. 24 hour clock.

[Jacob Orlove]

I still don't like how inelegant this card is. Reminder text like that is a good sign that the card should work differently to begin with.

[stolen]

I too agree that the card just doesn't have that simple elgence that mass destruction should.

Also, the rules issues alone should be enough to warrent a change.

I would go with Bram's flavor suggestion ("Punish the Proud") but make the text "Destroy each creature that has an activated ability," so the lack of activated abilities isn't just assumed (see Drudge Spell).

For me it really comes down to the rules thing.  Cards that might confuse the average player should never be made, especially when they can't be supported by strong flavor (as this one isn't).

[Ephraim]

Jacob and Stolen, normally I'd agree with the arguments you guys are making, but I absolutely love the subtlety of this card. It's the sort of rare I can really sink my teeth into. At first glance, it looks like a utility rare - the same as Wrath of God. On closer examination, it becomes a card around which an interesting token-offense deck could be built. Consider a white control deck using Decree of Justice for the kill. This card is very useful to such a deck, because it can be a one-sided board sweeper even after the Decree has been used, which Wrath of God can't do.

[Jacob Orlove]

I'm not saying it's a worthless distinction to make--my point is that it's a distinction the average player will not understand. The card is just too confusing, even with that reminder text.

[stolen]

Ephraim, I am a huge supporter of the top-down school of design.

If a card is designed on mechanics, it better have good flavor to justify it, and this simply doesn't.

The most important point, I reiterate myself and Jacob, is the rules aspect.  No player should have to be confused by a card, especially something that references something as odd as creature cards.

My favorite was the "Destroy all non-white creatures" one, with the cost suggestion of {W}{W}{W}.

[Ephraim]

I suppose I thought that the reminder text did a better than average job of clarifying exactly what this card does. Also recall that rares (which this would obviously be) are the one place where cards can be made confusing for the "average" player. The average player continues to ask whether or not Crucible of Worlds comboes with Seisic Assault. Particularly with reminder text on it, this card isn't any more confusing than that.

Stolen, as far as the flavour of the card goes, I agree, it's pretty flavourless. In this case, I'm willing to overlook that. Obviously I'm biased, though. I think this card's ability is incredibly freaking cool.