[discussion] so what would 4 fofs do?

[jpmeyer]

FoF was restricted back in the day because of the strength of mono-blue.  While it wasn't enough to outright kill mono-blue, nowadays mono-blue seems more like a metagame choice than a dominant deck, so people occasionally bring up FoF as a potential card to unrestrict.  What exactly would this do to the metagame?  How many FoFs would you add to which decks?

[Triple_S]

While I am not a control player at heart (as SliverKing can attest to) I believe that unrestricting FoF would be a huge mistake.  DrainSlaver and Mono-U would both be huge wrecking balls on the meta with their quality card drawing (FoF supplementing TfK in DrainSlaver and supplementing Intuition/AK in Mono-u).  In addition it could help with a resurgence of Hulk also.

[TheBrassMan]

If I'm correct... wasn't it a Workshop Aggro deck that best used FoF right before it got put on the list?  Other options include a slower Dragon deck or Stax.  Of the choices given I'd have to go with Control Slaver, as Welder on the table makes splits totally insane, not to mention resolving it during a slave turn.  That said, 4 mana is a whole lot right now, and chances are it's just not the draw engine it used to be.  Running all four in a deck probably wouldn't be optimal.

[MuzzonoAmi]

I'd play either an Affinity variant or a 5/3 variant. The card is absolutely busted in the right aggro decks because it gives them an endless supply of threats, especially when you include cards like Eternal Witness or Joblin Welder.

[Rico Suave]

If FoF were unrestricted, I don't think it would matter so much what deck you played as long as it had FoF.  

That being said it would probably have the most profound effects on Control Slaver and Tog, since they abuse more than just the card-drawing, but would you play Tog if FoF Control Slaver was an option?  I wouldn't.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I think that FOf is comparble to yawg will in that it's poweful becuase of the power level of the other cards... decks with huge bombs and/or grave synergy like control slaver can abuse it best.  In mono-U it's really just a good draw spell.  We see this reflected in the fact that 4x copies are legal in ext and the new 1.5 but it is restricted in type 1.

As rico says, however, 4x FOF is good in almost any t1 deck with blue.

[Jacob Orlove]

FoF is card advantage in every blue deck, but it only lets you cheat on casting costs with welder. Cheating on casting costs is what T1 is all about.

[Machinus]

FOF is the perfect example of why cards are restricted in the first place. It is an instant, it only has a single colored mana, it dumps cards in the graveyard which has huge synergy with other high powered cards, and worst of all, it is an extremely powerful source of card advantage. There is no way that the DCI could justify unrestrictiong FOF.

[rozetta]

Like MuzzonoAmi said, I'd put it in some aggro/combo style deck with welders. Affinity does seem a good choice due to the fact that a lot of the deck is free to cast out, so you wouldn't lose the ability to play threats while drawing more cards.

[Shock Wave]

... as if blue isn't broken enough already.

[rvs]

Good decks are forced to run blue anyway, so then they'll all just add 4 FoFs.

The only thing that unrestricting FoF would accomplish is that everybody sees that I'm right ;p

[Razvan]

I think it would be a fine replacement for Skeletal Scrying anyhow, as the 2 cards are fairly similar in function in some decks.

Welder decks, of course, would love it.

We all remember FoF, into FoF, into FoF, into FoF... bah...

[Thug]

I don't really think unrestricting FoF would have an great effect on the metagame. Their are enough decks that don't give you the time to abuse them.

For a While some people used 4 scrying in 4cc, but as the format started to speed up again, first 3 and then 2 became the more popular numbers. IMO the main reason for this is that most decks can outspeed Scrying.

Scrying is faster than FoF is, so as a pure cards drawer I don't think this card is all that hot, their are two exceptions however:

Welder makes this card pretty good I heard, but how much can control-slaver really fit in? 3 seems pretty hard already, if you play 3 or 4 you might be slowing down the deck too much.

Mono-Blue seems to deck that profits most from 4 FoF, since with 4 FoF and 4 Impulse you probably could go a long way without Phids. And the deck could add more Misdirections to give it a slightly better early game.

Koen

[Klep]

For a While some people used 4 scrying in 4cc, but as the format started to speed up again, first 3 and then 2 became the more popular numbers. IMO the main reason for this is that most decks can outspeed Scrying.

People only used 2 because they didn't understand why they were there.  At least 3 was always necessary.  Mono-U and 4CC are probably the decks that would benefit most easily from 4 FoF, as they have more space (or at least obvious slots) in which to fit the card.  That said, once they could be crammed into something like Control Slaver, that deck would be extremely powerful.  It's hard to dispute the synergy of Welder with a card that puts good artifacts in the graveyard, and the fact that it puts a few cards into your hand as well is just awesome.  Thank God it will never happen.

[Triple_S]

When FoF first came out I used it in Funker (old timers from Bdominia will remember it) since the interaction b/t FoF and Welder was so amazing.  If a random bad artifact fatty deck (w/o workshops but with Covetous Dragon) can abuse FoF I'm sure that current day ControlSlaver would just be degenerate.

[Smmenen]

I used to be of the opinion that Fact wouldn't have an impact in the current metagame.  Some people even think Gush can be unrestricted.  

They are crazy.

Take a look at this:

5 Fetch
4 Sea
3 Volc
2 Trop
2 Island
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Black Lotus

4 Fact or Fiction
2 Intuition
4 AK
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk
1 DT
1 Yawg Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Mind Twist

2 Duress
4 Drain
4 FOW

3 Tog
3 C. Wish

Tog would be QUITE ridiculous.  It would be essentially trading up D.A. for Fact.  That is SICK.  In addition, I think that Tog might not even be the most potent deck for Fact.

[MuzzonoAmi]

While that may be 'powerful', I don't see it being 'unhealthy'. Nearly every other deck would have access to similar brokenness, and many would simply be able to use FoF better than Tog. And if a deck like that would come back, GAT and Fish are more than capable of becoming threats in the metagame agian. I'm of the opinion that Tog decks are only good when the metagame is vulnerable to them because they are such a sensitive strategy.

[Toad]

Tog can run 3 or 4 Fact or Fiction in Extended too along with AK and the deck still sucks hard. Even if the Combo decks only kill by turn 4.

[Matt]

Tog can run 3 or 4 Fact or Fiction in Extended too along with AK and the deck still sucks hard. Even if the Combo decks only kill by turn 4.

1.x doesn't have Drain to power those out nor Force to resolve them nor Berserk.

[Toad]

1.x doesn't have Drain to power those out nor Force to resolve them nor Berserk.

1.x doesn't have decks that kill before you can even cast the Drain you need to power those.

[Klep]

1.x doesn't have decks that kill before you can even cast the Drain you need to power those.

....anymore.

It's still possible that Tog could prove itself strong in the now Tinker-less 1.x, but this isn't where we discuss such things.  The important thing to notice is that Steve admitted that Tog probably isn't even the best deck for it.  So while 4FoF Tog might not be the format breaker it could be, something else with 4FoF probably is.

[Toad]

It's still possible that Tog could prove itself strong in the now Tinker-less 1.x

Actually, Tinker left Extended a year ago. Tog does suck in Extended. It loses to Red Deck Wins, Modular, Aluren, etc...

4 FoF sounds interesting, but against which deck do you ALWAYS want to see one in opening hand? MonoU, Goblins, Burninator when they have no Mana Drain targets? Stax when you have to resolve a 4cc spell? 2-land Belcher who can kill you turn 1 reliably? Dragon who can kill you in response of the FoF?

I'm not even mentionning opening hands with 2 FoF against these decks. FoF is slow against Combo, most Aggro decks and Prison.

[ctthespian]

Hmm I stopped reading about half way through.  I think theres enough evidence here to just immediately lock lets unrestrict FOF threads

-Keith

[Rico Suave]

4 FoF sounds interesting, but against which deck do you ALWAYS want to see one in opening hand?

The control mirror, which would be by and far the biggest concern if FoF was unrestricted.

[Toad]

4 FoF sounds interesting, but against which deck do you ALWAYS want to see one in opening hand?

The control mirror, which would be by and far the biggest concern if FoF was unrestricted.

So It's good against 1/3 of the field and too slow against 2/3. People would tweak their decks into control killing machines for the mirror with billions of Fact or Fictions, and then would lose to 1/1 Flyers for and faeries beats.

[Addolorisi]

Actually, Tinker left Extended a year ago. Tog does suck in Extended. It loses to Red Deck Wins, Modular, Aluren, etc...

Without Drain and artifact mana, aggro becomes a viable strategy that 'Tog simply can't race, especially when it also loses FoW. Then there's the loss of a cohesive mana base and the "oops I win" of 'Zerk. Look at the number of blue cards being run in all decks in Extended, or the way each format's Belcher deck shaped up, and it becomes pretty clear that the two formats are so fundamentally different that comparisons like these simply lack significance.

While FoF may not be as nutty as it was when it left the format, I do think you're being a bit too harsh in your criticisms. I could see running 3 FoF in several of the already mentioned decks and not suffering too much against the decks you listed.

[ELD]

No question.  Control Slaver with multiple FoF would be nuts.  I'd cut DA and Memory Jar for it in a heatbeat.  Of all the established decks, control slaver would abuse FoF to the worst degree.  I often say that Thirst is like a mini FoF.  With all that artifact mana, turn one and two FoF's are very likely to swing the game completely out of reach very quickly.

[Rico Suave]

So It's good against 1/3 of the field and too slow against 2/3. People would tweak their decks into control killing machines for the mirror with billions of Fact or Fictions, and then would lose to 1/1 Flyers for {1}{U} and faeries beats.

Perhaps I'm just not on the same level of understanding of how good FoF is.  There's a time a while ago after all that combo jazz where FoF was first being incorporated into control decks.  Aside from the mirror, aggro was the only thing control should be worried about, and during that time Keeper was replacing spot removal with FoF.  Control decks would honestly be replacing cards that are vital against 90% of the field with this card.  That tends to understate how good this card is.

Of course the other decks have gotten better, as you mentioned, and while the rest of the metagame has gotten better since those days - so have our control decks.  4 FoF made Funker really good before, and that's not even around anymore (no offense Shane).  Take a current top-performing deck like Control Slaver and toss in 4 FoF.  FoF replaced unspeakable things before, so I don't see why it couldn't replace counters or something because everything else is too good.  That's sick.

Maybe I just have bad memories of playing in a format with 4 FoF control decks.  Who knows.  Either way, FoF does ridiculous things to control decks in T1.

[dandan]

Coming soon:

Would unrestricted Necro distort the metagame?  
Would unrestricted Black Vise destort the metagame?
Would unrestricted Mind Twist distort the metagame? (actually I think I've already seen this one)
Would unrestricted Tolarian Academy distort the metagame?
Would unrestricted YawgWill distort the metagame?

Because the restricted list doesn't have about 8 better candidates for unrestriction?

The likelihood of meeting someone with matches should not be a deciding factor in deciding whether or not you should soak yourself in petrol.

Sorry for the tone but I find it hard to believe this thread exists in this forum. It's not like it is hard to find decent candidates for unrestriction on the restricted list! (f34r Voltaic Key)

[Thug]

Sorry for the tone but I find it hard to believe this thread exists in this forum. It's not like it is hard to find decent candidates for unrestriction on the restricted list! (f34r Voltaic Key)

'Cause we all think the same about Voltaic and key and their would be nothing to discuss about.

Apparently people have very different opinions about FoF (Actualyy it seems to be Toad and me vs. The World) but at least we have something to discuss.

How much fun is a poll:

What would you play if Voltaic Key was unrestricted:

- Still the same deck--------------------------231452
- Secret-Tech deck with 4 Volctaic Key-----0