[DECK] Italian Gay Red Fish - looking for advice

[Chaos Blade]

I'd have to agree on the Mountain issue. I believe that right now in this metagame, verus decks such as TPS, Deathlong, Mono Blue, etc, the Red Fetch is not as great as it is verus Stax, the mirror and WTF/r were a stable yet pernament source of  red is needed to own the board. Yes the red fetch could be useful in the combo matchup to help your Gorilla Shamans, but a blue fetch would be just as or better as you can get mana for stifle etc.  To end my Mountain debate, I really only see it needed in metagames were the mirror and Workshop matches are plentiful.

On a sidenote, has anyone been having trouble verus Mono Blue? Have Back To Basics serverly damaged you?

[Shikari]

I'd have to agree on the Mountain issue. I believe that right now in this metagame, verus decks such as TPS, Deathlong, Mono Blue, etc, the Red Fetch is not as great as it is verus Stax, the mirror and WTF/r were a stable yet pernament source of  red is needed to own the board. Yes the red fetch could be useful in the combo matchup to help your Gorilla Shamans, but a blue fetch would be just as or better as you can get mana for stifle etc.  To end my Mountain debate, I really only see it needed in metagames were the mirror and Workshop matches are plentiful.

On a sidenote, has anyone been having trouble verus Mono Blue? Have Back To Basics serverly damaged you?

B2B doesn't really post much of a threat to me. Most of the time I let it resolve, unless I have a ton of manlands in play. The main thing is Powder Keg. I often try to resolve a Null Rod.

[Axor_the_Superman]

 I think the monomountain maybe a good choise.

@ shikari: if you play vs a player (in mirror match) you can side off: n rod, gorillas, shaman.... And you must side in beb, f/i (if you sided them) and reb.

The advantage in mirror is made by lavamancer and mana denial that make your board advantage. And if you have board advantage you can also draw with curiosity/standstill. F/i helps you to have board advantage, and reb and beb wash the table and counter its fow/daze or other.

[n00bie-T]

my build is almost the same but there are some changes:

 - I use the 1 misdirection cause with 3 stifle and 1 misdirection you can   counter a wasteland almost every time, what is needed in some matchups

 - 4 mishra's factorys are needed

 - 4 REB in sideboard for mirror match, mono-blue (kill back to basics) and gro-a-tog

 - 4 BEB in sideboard for FCG and most important welder based decks (see top 8 of gencon )
 
 - 5 blue-based fetch if you want red try fetching volcanic island

 - 3 basicland to avoid back to basics

the deck:

4x spiketail hatchling
4x cloud of faeries
4x grim lavamancer
1x gorilla shaman

4x force of will
3x daze
4x curiosity
4x standstill
3x null rod
3x stifle
2x crucible of worlds
1x misdirection

4x volcanic island
4x wasteland
4x mishra's factory
3x polluted delta
2x flooded strand
2x faerie conclave
2x island
1x strip mine
1x mountain

SB:
4x blue elemental blast
4x red elemental blast
4x fire/ice
3x sword of fire and ice

any tips/comments??

[wuaffiliate]

In my opinion play only one copy of misdi is useless

I agree, which is why i run zero. An extra daze, stifle, or bounce has always occupied the slot in my build. Misd has useless in far too many situation, other options are much more open to use at nearly any time.

[Shikari]

 I think the monomountain maybe a good choise.

@ shikari: if you play vs a player (in mirror match) you can side off: n rod, gorillas, shaman.... And you must side in beb, f/i (if you sided them) and reb.

The advantage in mirror is made by lavamancer and mana denial that make your board advantage. And if you have board advantage you can also draw with curiosity/standstill. F/i helps you to have board advantage, and reb and beb wash the table and counter its fow/daze or other.

u're siding out around 4-5 cards..and u're siding in like 6-9 cards...wat u gonna take out?

[Shikari]

 I think the monomountain maybe a good choise.

@ shikari: if you play vs a player (in mirror match) you can side off: n rod, gorillas, shaman.... And you must side in beb, f/i (if you sided them) and reb.

The advantage in mirror is made by lavamancer and mana denial that make your board advantage. And if you have board advantage you can also draw with curiosity/standstill. F/i helps you to have board advantage, and reb and beb wash the table and counter its fow/daze or other.

u're siding out around 4-5 cards..and u're siding in like 6-9 cards...wat u gonna take out? i'll juz side in like 3 fire/ice and 2-3 Beb

[Raven Fire]

- 5 blue-based fetch if you want red try fetching volcanic island

 - 3 basicland to avoid back to basics

Aren't these points somewhat contradictory?  Wouldn't it be nice to have a source of red mana that avoided Back to Basics?  Yes, I know you can sometimes fetch a Volcanic to fire off a REB at the BtB, but that's not a truly reliable move as their counter base pwnzorz yours (and do any of the mono blue decks still try and set Chalice for 1?) and then you are left with a dead dual land for your troubles.

[lep]

I have been playing fish or a variation of it since January of 2003.  I have never had an issue with BTB and my mana base is as follows;

3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory

Notice no Faerie Conclave.  Too slow and too bulky.  I also refuse to run the Voidmage \ Spiketail build.  If they are siding in BtB you are siding in REB, as are they.  You just need to catch him off guard and have force backup if it is hindering your game that much.

But, in all honesty, Fish should constantly force MonoU into the defensive.  You are playing a majorly aggro deck.  They cant afford to drop an early game BtB because they need to leave Drain or Leak mana open.  Avoid dropping 2 drops unless you have counter backup.  (Dont want them Draining into a BtB).  This is another reason I dropped the spiketails and voidmages.  I opted to run Lightning Bolt, Unstable Mutation, Mox Monkey, Goblin Vandal, and a bunch of other meta choices to reduce my mana curve to less then 2.

[Smmenen]

How do you plan on combating Oath?

[Gaea]

There no competitive versions of oath.dec in our meta and i think that it won't be such a real problem for fish untill it became a diffused archetype (and i think this won't happen   )

[n00bie-T]

I have been playing fish or a variation of it since January of 2003.  I have never had an issue with BTB and my mana base is as follows;

3 Flooded Strand
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
3 Island
4 Mishra's Factory

Notice no Faerie Conclave.  Too slow and too bulky.  I also refuse to run the Voidmage \ Spiketail build.  If they are siding in BtB you are siding in REB, as are they.  You just need to catch him off guard and have force backup if it is hindering your game that much.

But, in all honesty, Fish should constantly force MonoU into the defensive.  You are playing a majorly aggro deck.  They cant afford to drop an early game BtB because they need to leave Drain or Leak mana open.  Avoid dropping 2 drops unless you have counter backup.  (Dont want them Draining into a BtB).  This is another reason I dropped the spiketails and voidmages.  I opted to run Lightning Bolt, Unstable Mutation, Mox Monkey, Goblin Vandal, and a bunch of other meta choices to reduce my mana curve to less then 2.

could you show us your deck?? a fish deck without spiketails is kind of weird

[Axor_the_Superman]

How do you plan on combating Oath?

Oath wins by a single card: oath of druids. If u counter oath you have the victory in your hands.

If oath would became a tier 1 or 1.5 we can put in side sigil of sleep or echoing truth, but remember that we have also 3 maze of ith.... Colossus lose the right way to do damage!!!    

[lep]

How do you plan on combating Oath?

I can't.  I think fish as an archtype can't combat it well enough to be consistent.  I honestly wasn't planning on seeing an Oath running as well as yours was, let alone being paired against it first round.  I upped the Tormod's Crypt count in an attempt to slow the deck's progression down some.  I also added Chain of Vapor in hopes that I can buy some time until the oath player can find a brainstorm.  

I can take care of the Spirit of the Night but Akroma is out of my range.  I was even able to outrun a 3rd turn Colossus someone else dropped but the deck as a whole doesn't have the spells needed to compete with Oath.

If I see a good deal of Oath injected into my meta then I will probably be forced to run either my 4C or my Workshop.

I will post a decklist later when I am back in my dorm.

[lep]

How do you plan on combating Oath?

Oath wins by a single card: oath of druids. If u counter oath you have the victory in your hands.

If oath would became a tier 1 or 1.5 we can put in side sigil of sleep or echoing truth, but remember that we have also 3 maze of ith.... Colossus lose the right way to do damage!!!    

Oath also runs 12 Counterspells, 2 Wasteland, and a Strip.  They force the game to go at their speed and they won't Oath out unless they have answers.

[PucktheCat]

-2 Faerie Conclave, -2 Fire/Ice or -2 Stifle or -1 Stifle, -1 Misdirection | +2 Tundra, +2 Swords to Plowshares.

I think that this alternation can improve a lot of matchups, like Dragon, 4cc, (maybe Oath), Madness, random Aggro, etc.

Thoughts?

Although I am not up to date on the metagame (at all) I can say that I played a deck like this over the summer to great success.  I think it is an marginal improvement of the deck, but as you have already seen, some disagree.

Leo

[Smmenen]

Meandeck Oath run 14 COunterspells and Back to Basics in the SB for Maze.

[Shikari]

Meandeck Oath run 14 COunterspells and Back to Basics in the SB for Maze.

wow..that's mean.

[Raven Fire]

Oath wasn't a problem before Forbidden Orchard decided to wreck our world.  Just beat down with man-lands and creatures that could self-destruct if an Oath was resolved (Spiketails, Lavamancers, etc.).  Now we're stuck with the lamest spirit tokens ever (why don't they fly like the spirit tokens generated by cards from previos sets?).  I'd say that Fish could start packing in the Waterfront Bouncers (and maybe Seasingers and/or Gilded Drakes), but that's worthless in games two and three (if there is a game three).  Stifle is just not going to buy enough turns to pull these games out once Oath has resolved.  It is going to have to hit their fetches and be combined with a strong attack on the opponent's mana base.  While Oath runs many more counters, they have to pay for most of them.  Fish might have a chance if it can keep the Oath player in Daze/Spiketail range.  I fear the game is probably over once the Oath player reaches four lands in play.

[Axor_the_Superman]

@ lucca, yesterday Oath won the Tipe 1 Tournament.

If this deck will run to be a tier1 or 1,5 I will think to side some bouncers, as waterfront bouncer.

Main Deck I made some changes: 2 red fetchlands and 1 mountain, testing I see that the mana red is more stable Vs Wasteland.

[Chaos Blade]

I think Waterfront Bouncer would be a good choice. If you stifle Oath, would it still be destroyed? Also I think if we attack Oath from not being played could be major too. If that is not a good route then we go to  Waterfront Bouncer/ Echoing truth. Also, have you guys been satsified with Cloud Of Faeries. I might go down to two and run one Waterfront Bouncer in my URG build.

[SamTheHam]

I'm a tard and here's my list

Eighth Place: Sam Tallent (SamTheHam on TMD) playing W!WTF
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra’s Factory
3 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Meddling Mage
4 Cloud Of faeries
1 Gorilla Shaman
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
2 Sowrds to plowshares
4 Standstill
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Null Rod
4 Force of will
2 Daze
1 Stifle
4 Curiosity

SB:
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Hydroblast
1 BEB
3 Pyroblast
2 Crucible of Worlds
3 Disenchant
2 Fire/Ice
1 Stifle

My computer died when i clicked on post during my last post here, so if the previous diatribe didn't make it, I'll re-do it.  STP is good against huge artifact men and Welders.  Naming oath or tinker or welder on a Medlling mage is awesome.  It needs more game agianst oath, but all fish decks do.  I like it.  I need help with the board.  Awesome!

[Shikari]

I think Waterfront Bouncer would be a good choice. If you stifle Oath, would it still be destroyed? Also I think if we attack Oath from not being played could be major too. If that is not a good route then we go to  Waterfront Bouncer/ Echoing truth. Also, have you guys been satsified with Cloud Of Faeries. I might go down to two and run one Waterfront Bouncer in my URG build.

I don't think cloud of faeries should be cut. this card allows a quick creature to be cast before standstill...and can be cycled under it. I would think that cards like waterfront bouncer belong to the sideboard.

[Chaos Blade]

Your right on that but if Oath becomes ever more popular then it is hyped then may be it might be a good choice. In my WTFr version I run three faeries and I'm always satisfied. Also considering if you need a main deck solution, as it is weakess(I swear I spelt that wrong) creature in the deck then bouncers or something else would be put in that spot. Other then that some solution is needed in the board.

[Axor_the_Superman]

Against oath we still have Maze of Ith...

I think fish would be strong against oath... We could side waterfront...
But maze is better in my opinion...

[Raven Fire]

I think fish would be strong against oath... We could side waterfront...
But maze is better in my opinion...

How is Fish strong vs. Oath?  Fish needs creatures to win (which is an advantage for Oath) and Oath wins when it resolves a 2cc Enchantment (and it has plenty of counters to force it through).  Your sideboard options like Bouncer, Drake, and Maze all blow vs. Oath's boarded Angels and BtB.  The current problem, as I see it, is that Fish is a tempo deck but it has no match for the tempo advantage of an early Akroma, etc.  Getting an 8cc finisher into play through Oath trumps the hell out of a "free" 1/1 flyer...

[Axor_the_Superman]

Your sideboard options like Bouncer, Drake, and Maze

This is the answer.

But you see oath as the new best unpowered deck? Oath wins ONLY if oaht of druids comes in play, and you can stifle, tap its creature with f/i.... Fish player doesn't lose if oath comes in play...  

[Raven Fire]

Your sideboard options like Bouncer, Drake, and Maze

This is the answer.

But you see oath as the new best unpowered deck? Oath wins ONLY if oaht of druids comes in play, and you can stifle, tap its creature with f/i.... Fish player doesn't lose if oath comes in play...  

If you read my post, you'd see that I was pointing out that those are not viable answers because the Oath player will board in cards that make them ineffective.  And saying that Oath wins ONLY if it resolves Oath of Druids is like saying that Tog ONLY wins when it can resolve a Psycatog (yet somehow it was a dominant deck for a good chunk of time and is still being played).  Oath of Druids is cheaper than Psychatog and requires far fewer resources after it has resolved (no need to Wish for Zerk, pitch your hand, etc.).  Stifle and Fire/Ice may delay Oath (if the Oath player doesn't counter them), but don't make the problem go away.  The mana denial route is much more difficult because Oath only requires a single colored mana (as opposed to blue & black for the Tog and green for the bezerk) and is a realistic play on turn one.

[Axor_the_Superman]

so... how fish can combat oath?

in my opinion.... if we can play bouncer we can fight this deck with good results.
And gilded drake can help us to combat colossus (if it is not countered...)

Mad Idea: post side... we can side out all creatures and side reb drake boucers, f/i, flux r'n'r... in this way we have only creatures who can help us, and other "utilities..."  

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

so... how fish can combat oath?

in my opinion.... if we can play bouncer we can fight this deck with good results.
And gilded drake can help us to combat colossus (if it is not countered...)

Mad Idea: post side... we can side out all creatures and side reb drake boucers, f/i, flux r'n'r... in this way we have only creatures who can help us, and other "utilities..."  

Fish will always have problems with oath because oath has strategy superiority.  For ideas you can look at the "How can fish beat oath?" thread, but the main solution is to attack the oath rather than the creatures.  WIth U/R fish your best answer is probably annul, which can counter oath as well as being useful in workshop mathups or helping with the mana denial theme.  I have seen some builds maindeck them but IMO they are an sb card.  White/Green splash builds have access to enchantment destruction (disichant, naturalize, simplify, etc), but to remove it with blue your best bet is probably echoing truth.  Explosives is rather slow and has bad synergy with rod (if you kept them in).