Rules quiz

[Gabethebabe]

EDIT: more rules quizzes below. Feel free to scroll down the thread and find more of them!

I see you guys like to take the Delphi test. How about a quiz with one specific problem?

Try this scenario:

Sam controls a Warped Devotion.

Frodo has a Squee, Joblin Nabob in his graveyard and he controls an Undiscovered Paradise, that he previously tapped for mana. He has got 0 cards in hand.

Here are the Oracle texts of the cards:

Warped Devotion

Enchantment
Whenever a permanent is returned to a player's hand, that player discards a card from his or her hand.

Undiscovered Paradise
Land
T: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. During the next untap step of Undiscovered Paradise's controller, as that player untaps his or her permanents, he or she returns Undiscovered Paradise to its owner's hand.

Squee, Joblin Nabob

Creature -- Joblin Legend
1/1
If you don´t know what Squee does, press CTRL-ALT-DEL. At the beginning of your upkeep, if Squee, Joblin Nabob is in your graveyard, you may return Squee to your hand.

Now starts a new turn for Frodo. In the untap step the Undiscovered Paradise (UP) returns to Frodo´s hand. The Warped Devotion triggers. What happens now?

A. The Warped Devotion´s ability resolves before the ability of Squee triggers, so Frodo has to discard the UP

B. The ability of the Warped Devotion goes to the stack in the untap step, in the upkeep step the triggered ability of the Squee goes to the stack, Squee´s ability resolves first (FIFO), so Frodo can choose whether he wants to discard the Squee or the UP.

C. The abilities of the Squee and the UP go to the stack simultaneously, the ability of the UP will resolve first and Frodo will have to discard the UP.

D. The abilities of the Squee and the UP go to the stack simultaneously, Frodo may pick the order and he can arrange the Squee´s ability to resolve first and choose which card to discard.

What´s the correct response? Of course you should answer before reading the comments of the ppl.

[Binary]

(leaving a few appropriate line breaks for those who don't want to see the answer yet)






I believe the answer is C.

302.3. No player receives priority during the untap step, so no spells or abilities can be played or resolved. Any ability that triggers during this step will be held until the next time a player would receive priority, which is usually during the upkeep step. (See rule 303, "Upkeep Step.")

303.1. As the upkeep step begins, any abilities that trigger at the beginning of that upkeep step and any abilities that triggered during the turn's untap step go on the stack. (See rule 410, "Handling Triggered Abilities.") Then the active player gets priority and players may play spells and abilities.

Since the UP trigger is held "until the next time a player would receive priority," and that doesn't happen until beginning-of-upkeep abilities go on the stack, then the UP trigger is resolved first.

[Jebus]

E:  None of the above.

No answer correctly describes the situation.

I'd like to see if some resourceful individual can figure out what is wrong.  

[goober]

UP goes back during the untap, then WD waits until the upkeep to go on the stack.  Being the active player you decide which goes on the stack first, Squee or the WD. Then they resolve in that order and the upkeep ends.  So you can either choose between having just the UP or having both in hand when you discard.

Not sure, but it is my guess.

[Jebus]

UP goes back during the untap, then WD waits until the upkeep to go on the stack.  Being the active player you decide which goes on the stack first, Squee or the WD. Then they resolve in that order and the upkeep ends.  So you can either choose between having just the UP or having both in hand when you discard.

Not sure, but it is my guess.

You made a little mistake.

[Razvan]

Since both cards are returned to owner's hand (and it doesn't specify from play), won't the player have to discard twice, since there's 2 triggers?

So discard both?

[Malhavoc]

By definition (214.3), a permanent is only a permanent when it is in the In Play Zone. So Warped Devotion won't trigger for Squee.

[Limbo]

Goober is close. Remember APNAP? Warped devotion is controlled by an opponent, so the squee trigger is put on the stack first (active player), then non-active player stuff is stacked on top of that. So warped devotion resolves first, resulting in a discarded UP. After that, squee returns to the hand of Frodo.

PS: Nice flavour in the question Gabe

[Razvan]

Good point Limbo. And Malhavoc.

I am a loser.

[Jebus]

Goober is close. Remember APNAP? Warped devotion is controlled by an opponent, so the squee trigger is put on the stack first (active player), then non-active player stuff is stacked on top of that. So warped devotion resolves first, resulting in a discarded UP. After that, squee returns to the hand of Frodo.

PS: Nice flavour in the question Gabe

He caught Goober's mistake.  This is correct.

[goober]

oops, i thought frodo had both.  nice catch limbo.

[Limbo]

These are cool. And educative. Lets come up with more of these (preferrably in flavour with fishes and furry animals in stealth planes ).

[dandan]

Wow, I'm amazed anyone remembers that thread! I tried searching for it last month but I guess it got lost in the great crash. Shame. I feel Enchantress/Drop of Honey will never again be explained in more detail.

[rvs]

Wow, I'm amazed anyone remembers that thread! I tried searching for it last month but I guess it got lost in the great crash. Shame. I feel Enchantress/Drop of Honey will never again be explained in more detail.

Dr Sillyvan's quote page has it.

[Limbo]

Fishes and furry animals in a stealth plane.

Best...Explanation...Ever

[Gabethebabe]

Other scenario:

Paul Newman plays Lobotomy targeting Jack Nicholson. Jack Nicholson doesn´t like to be lobotomized (once is enough) so he plays Misdirection, removing some random blue card, changing the target of Lobotomy to Paul Newman.

Paul Newman has in his hand 2 Islands and 2 BESERK MURDOLONT. BESERK MURDOLONTs are Paul´s only win condition (you don´t need more, do you). There is also a BESERK MURDOLONT in the graveyard and a BESERK MURDOLONT in the library of Paul (part of the game plan, Paul is running a techy Reanimate-MURDOLONT deck)

How many (and which) BESERK MURDOLONTs are going to be removed from the game?

BESERK MURDOLONT
If you don´t know what BESERK MURDOLONT does, please leave this site and do not annoy us with your ignorance.

Misdirection
{U}
Instant
You may remove a blue card in your hand from the game rather than pay Misdirection's mana cost.
Change the target of target spell with a single target.

Lobotomy

Sorcery
Target player reveals his or her hand, then you choose a card other than a basic land card from it. Search that player's graveyard, hand, and library for all cards with the same name as the chosen card and remove them from the game. Then that player shuffles his or her library.

[Malhavoc]

It seems just to easy, so I think I'm missing something... but I would say that Paul has the option to not find the MURLODONT in his deck, while he is instead forced to remove from the game all the others. This is because players looking for cards in places (like the libraries) which are not revealed to all players have the option to not find something if they want to. This is just a rule made to avoid calling the judge everytime to be sure that particular cards aren't really in the deck: the player has the option to not find them, and being not forced to find them no judge is needed to be sure he hasn't broken any rule.

[Jacob Orlove]

Since you search (optional) grave, hand, and library, Paul can remove just the one murlodont he's forced to choose (not optional) with lobotomy. If he wants, he can remove any of the others, but he doesn't have to.

[Jebus]

Malhavoc is correct.

All must be removed from any revealed zones.  This includes the hand and graveyard in this case.  The Murlodant in the Library is the only one that is not required to be found.

[Limbo]

There is one flaw in the explanation. Only few people know this (even some level 4 judges are kept in the dark about this), but the Beserk Murdolont has a secret ability that prevents it from being removed from the game.

WARNING << DONT TRY THIS AT HOME >> WARNING
In order to find this rules text, you need to watch at the card using Ultra-Violet light in a dark room.
If you try doing this without the appropriate safety precautions the Murlodont will arise from the card as a living creature and go beserk on your ass!!!1!one

Only members of the secret society "Masters of the Murlodont" are informed about these special secret powers (yes, I mentioned powers in plural form). I must warn you though, becoming a member of this society is not something that is available to the weak of mind or heart. Also, finding these secret powers is no easy task. Some searches will involve using Trogdor blood, among others.

Hoping to have informed you sufficiently about the correct use of Beserk Murlodont you all receive greetings from :

Limbo, the Murlodont Master

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Not to hijack Gabe's thread, but I have a rules quiz also:

Player A= D4RGON
Player B= PATRIARCH"S BIDDING REANIMATOR (can also be living death, bartuch the bloody, w/e)

Player A has 3 WGD in his grave yard and calls the creature type dragon when the bidding resolves.  What happens to the dragons and player A's permenents as the dragons trigger their RFG effects?  List the progression of the stack with the original 3 dragons in play down to the end result(hint: lable dragons 1,2,3 or A,B,C or something).  This took me a bit of thinking due to all of the triggers to keep track of, even though it is just basic LIFO.

Edit: If you give up or want to double check your answer you can look it up on SCG .

[Limbo]

That shouldn't be too hard. Lets build the stack in the beginning:

Last
CIP Dragon A
CIP Dragon B
CIP Dragon C
First

CIP Dragon A resolves, resulting in removing dragon B+C, with dragon A on the board:

Last
Leave Play Dragon B
Leave Play Dragon C
CIP Dragon B
CIP Dragon C
First

The last 2 triggers don't do anything, as they haven't removed stuff yet, so the first thing to actually do something, is the CIP from dragon B, resulting in removal of dragon A:

Last
Leave Play Dragon A
CIP Dragon C
First

Dragon A leaving play results in Dragon B + C returning, which yields:

Last
CIP Dragon B or C
CIP Dragon C or B
CIP Dragon C
First

At this moment, dragon A is permanently removed, as it was removed by a dragon that already left play before it removed A. Next this will happen:

Last
Leave play Dragon C
CIP Dragon C
CIP Dragon C
First

Dragon B now removes dragon C from the game. The leave play on top does nothing, and now CIP dragon C resolves, removing dragon B, returning dragon C. Dragon B now is permanently removed from the game as well.

The CIP from Dragon C removes nothing, so in the end, Dragon C removes itself with his first trigger

[Jacob Orlove]

Edit: he added the correct ending.

Except Dragon A is gone forever. You need to finish the loop:

Last
CIP Dragon B or C
CIP Dragon C or B
CIP Dragon C*
First

CIP Dragon B resolves:

Last
Leaves Play Dragon C
CIP Dragon C
CIP Dragon C*
First

Leaves Play resolves with no effect. CIP for Dragon C resolves, removing B:

Last
Leaves Play Dragon B
CIP Dragon C*
First

Leaves play for B resolves, returning C.

Last
CIP Dragon C
CIP Dragon C*
First

The first CIP resolves, removing all other permanents. Then the second resolves, removing Dragon C (since it left play and is thus not the same card as the one triggering the ability).

There is no loop.

[Gabethebabe]

OK, another one.

Bush has an untapped Island in play and no creatures. He has a Morphling and a Grizzly Bears in his graveyard.

Kerry has Blastoderm, Scragnoth and Clone in his graveyard and Serra Angel in play.

Kerry plays Living Death. After it has resolved and the next player gets priority to play spells, where is the Clone and if it is in play, what are its possible shapes?

Living Death
{B}
Sorcery
Each player removes all creature cards in his or her graveyard from the game, then sacrifices all creatures he or she controls, then puts into play all cards he or she removed this way.

Clone

Creature -- Clone
0/0
As Clone comes into play, you may choose a creature in play. If you do, Clone comes into play as a copy of that creature.

Blastoderm, Serra Angel, Grizzly Bears, Morphling
Yeah right.

I hope the thread will not be closed for political content

[Limbo]

The two most important things here are:

Clone is not a targeted creature spell.

Both players remove their creature cards at once. Then both players sacrifice all creature they control at once. Then both players put all creatures they removed into play. If there are any choices involved for a given step, the current player makes their choices first, then the other player, and finally you do the action all at once.

So what happens considering clone, is that the serra angel leaves play before the other creatures enter play, so it can't be chosen as a copy. Since the clone ability is not targeted, Kerry can pick one of these: Morphling, Grizzly Bears, Blastoderm, Scragnoth and Clone (yes, the clone can pick itself, but then it comes into play as a clone, and tries to clone again). With a vesuvan doppelganger this would be the same. However, the doppelganger copy ability at the start of each turn is targeted, so it can't become a scragnoth, blastoderm or morphling (provided it becomes untargetable) then.

[Tristal]

I believe the Clone must come in as a 0/0, as no creatures are in play when you must make its copy decision.  The Clone then stabs itself in the eye and dies.

[Limbo]

I believe the Clone must come in as a 0/0, as no creatures are in play when you must make its copy decision.  The Clone then stabs itself in the eye and dies.

Nope, this is the same as casting replenish with opalescense and pandemonium in the yard. In that case pandemonium and opalescense enter at the same time, so the pandemonium will trigger on itself to deal damage. In this case, all creatures enter play at the same time, so all creatures entering play are legal targets for the clone.

[Jebus]

I believe the Clone must come in as a 0/0, as no creatures are in play when you must make its copy decision.  The Clone then stabs itself in the eye and dies.

This is the correct answer.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

I beilive the key word is "AS" in determing this conclusion.  It's not a trigger that happens after it enters play, so there are no legal targets at the time when you must choose.  Poor clone .

Edit: Limbo: Did you notice that Tristal's sig says  dci lvl 1 judge ?

[Limbo]

I beilive the key word is "AS" in determing this conclusion.  It's not a trigger that happens after it enters play, so there are no legal targets at the time when you must choose.  Poor clone .

Edit: Limbo: Did you notice that Tristal's sig says  dci lvl 1 judge ?

Hmm, I missed the "AS", as most of those abilities start with "When", which would make it a triggered ability. In this case, it indeed is no triggered ability, so my remark about being able to clone clone can be regarded as not being written, and Tristal is indeed right.

And yes, I noticed that his sig says level 1 judge, but that is not a 100% guarantee for a correct answer. Not too say I don't trust him as a judge, just saying judges aint God (at least most of them aren't).