Rules quiz

[Tristal]

I'd be the first person to say Level 1 judges in general are terrible at rules and best suited to running Booster drafts and deck registration booths.  Fortunately, I do play Type 1, so that gives me a bit of an edge in obscure rulings.

[Gabethebabe]

Easy aren´t they?

Two more for the weekend:

Scenario 1:
Forrest Gump has a Fecundity in play. His opponent has a Engineered Plague in play, naming Goblins. Gump plays a Goblin Recruiter. He knows that he has to get his Goblin Goon. So after the Recruiter has entered play and been sent off to the graveyard for being a 0/0 and the two triggered abilities from the Fecundity and the Recruiter have been resolved, which card has Gump drawn from the Fecundity?

Fecundity
{G}
Enchantment
Whenever a creature is put into a graveyard from play, that creature's controller may draw a card.

Goblin Recruiter

Creature -- Goblin
1/1
When Goblin Recruiter comes into play, search your library for any number of Goblin cards. Reveal those cards, then shuffle your library and put them on top of it in any order.

1. If Gump knows to get the Goon, he will have drawn the Goon.
2. Unless Gump is a topdecking lucksack, he will have the Goon on top of his lib and another card in hand.
3. The reply depends on the fact if Gump knows how to stack abilities.

Scenario 2:
1) opponent hits me with a Chain of Plasma. I decide to copy the Chain of Plasma and discard a Guerilla Tactics.
2) I hit my opponent with a Chain of Plasma. He discards a card and returns me the favour. I discard Guerilla Tactics and hit him again.
3) I control a Scandalmonger. My opponent uses its ability targeting me and I discard Guerilla Tactics.
4) My opponent controls Saproling Cluster. I discard Guerilla Tactics to make a token.

In all these 4 scenarios: does Guerilla Tactics do 4 damage?

Guerrilla Tactics

Instant
Guerrilla Tactics deals 2 damage to target creature or player.
When a spell or ability an opponent controls causes you to discard Guerrilla Tactics from your hand, Guerrilla Tactics deals 4 damage to target creature or player.

Chain of Plasma

Instant
Chain of Plasma deals 3 damage to target creature or player. Then that player or that creature's controller may discard a card from his or her hand. If the player does, he or she may copy this spell and may choose a new target for that copy.

Scandalmonger

Creature -- Monger
3/3
: Target player discards a card from his or her hand. Any player may play this ability but only if he or she could play a sorcery.

Saproling Cluster
{G}
Enchantment
, Discard a card from your hand: Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token into play. Any player may play this ability.

[Jujulautre]

Hmm, I missed the "AS", as most of those abilities start with "When", which would make it a triggered ability. In this case, it indeed is no triggered ability, so my remark about being able to clone clone can be regarded as not being written, and Tristal is indeed right.

There's an easy way to remember that: if this were a triggered ability, the clone would come into play as a 0/0 creature and suddendly die

For the new question:
Scenario 1: even if the abilities do not trigger at the same time, they go onto the stack at the same time, so Gump may choose to fetch a goblin first, and then draw (if he wants to, obv )

Scenario 2:
In cases 1 and 2, the chain of plasma (or its copy) is controlled by the opponent, I will do 4 damage with guerilla tactics (even if I make the choice to discard or not)
Same for 3: even if it's my enchantment, my opponent controlls the ability, I'll do 4 damages
4 is same of 3: it's my opponent's cluster but I control the aility: no damages

Juju, lvl 1 who knwos the rules better than some lvl 2 that I won't name

[Gabethebabe]

BTW: in the Living Death one: if there would have been a Phyrexian Dreadnought in either graveyard, where would it have ended up after resolving the LD?

[Jujulautre]

BTW: in the Living Death one: if there would have been a Phyrexian Dreadnought in either graveyard, where would it have ended up after resolving the LD?

At the time it would wome into play, instead of putting it into play, you must sacrifice creatures to reach 12 power. But, you're in the resolution of the living death, at a time where there is NO creature in play.

I don't see how you could have your dreadnouht in play, beacause instead of putting it into play, you'll put it back into your greavyard

Someone have an idea to reanimate a dreadnought? I don't have any

[ProZachar]

4 is same of 3: it's my opponent's cluster but I control the aility: no damages

Another reason why Tactics won't trigger in scenario 4 is that you're discarding Tactics as part of a cost, whereas Tactics specifically states "spell or ability".

[Toad]

Juju, lvl 1 who knwos the rules better than some lvl 2 that I won't name

Indeed, I'm pretty sure you know the rules better than I do

Nevertheless, you are still a young padawan

[Jujulautre]

Juju, lvl 1 who knwos the rules better than some lvl 2 that I won't name

Indeed, I'm pretty sure you know the rules better than I do

Nevertheless, you are still a young padawan

Yeah, Ô master, you're certainly right  

To be honest, I wasn't thinking to you... I didn't even remember that you were lvl 2  :lol:


Prochazar: yeah, that's another reason, I thought of it after posting my message

[Gabethebabe]

Prochazar: yeah, that's another reason, I thought of it after posting my message

Before you start tapping yourself on the shoulders any more, maybe you should answer the Dreadnought question CORRECTLY

Take that from a level 0 judge  

[Jujulautre]

Before you start tapping yourself on the shoulders any more, maybe you should answer the Dreadnought question CORRECTLY

Take that from a level 0 judge  

Errr, I made a mistake in my answer? Or you did not see it?

[Jebus]

Before you start tapping yourself on the shoulders any more, maybe you should answer the Dreadnought question CORRECTLY

Take that from a level 0 judge  

Unless I'm missing something, I don't see anything incorrect about the answer he gave.

Let's all keep things civil please.  If this is going to turn into some kind of rules knowledge pissing contest, I'm going to have to put an end to this.

[Gabethebabe]

I´ll be a good boy

OK, it seems few people are interested in this thread, so I´ll finish this (from my part) with a couple of yes/no questions.

1. Mana Maze is in play. Can I Brainstorm in my opponent´s upkeep and change the colour of the Brainstorm to Black (with Blind Seer´s ability) to prevent my opponent to start his main phase with a black spell?

2. Player 1 controls 2 Forests and a Quirion Ranger. Player 2 plays a Sundering Titan. Will Player 1 be able to save the Forest that is about to be Titan-ed?

3. I have 8 cards in hand and Multani, Maro Sorcerer in play. Multani attacks and is blocked by a Verdant Force, taking 7 damage. Will Multani survive when I discard to 7?

4. Fist of Suns is in play. Can I play a morphed creature paying WUBRG?

5. A Quicksilver Elemental copies the ability of a split-creature (e.g. Nezumi Shortfang). I use this ability and the criterium to "flip" is met. Will the Quicksilver Elemental flip now, even though it is not a split-creature?

6. My opponent Bolts my animated Mishra´s Factory and it dies. If I control Sacred Ground, will it return to play?

7. I play Yawgmoth´s Will. Can I slip a Phyrexian Dreadnought from the GY under the Illusionary Mask I have in play?

8. I have Mirari in play. My opponent has Standstill in play. Suppose I have Stifle in my hand and I want to play "some" other spell, can I prevent my opponent from drawing 3 cards off his Standstill?  (Yes/No/Only in your own turn/Only in opponents turn)

That´s it!

[Jujulautre]

I´ll be a good boy

OK, it seems few people are interested in this thread, so I´ll finish this (from my part) with a couple of yes/no questions.

Ok, let's try this one

1. Mana Maze is in play. Can I Brainstorm in my opponent´s upkeep and change the colour of the Brainstorm to Black (with Blind Seer´s ability) to prevent my opponent to start his main phase with a black spell?

No, because when the spell was played, it was blue

2. Player 1 controls 2 Forests and a Quirion Ranger. Player 2 plays a Sundering Titan. Will Player 1 be able to save the Forest that is about to be Titan-ed?

No, because the choice of the lands is made as part of the resolution of titan's CIP ability

3. I have 8 cards in hand and Multani, Maro Sorcerer in play. Multani attacks and is blocked by a Verdant Force, taking 7 damage. Will Multani survive when I discard to 7?

Yes, because at the cleanup step, you'll discard down to seven and remove all damages on creatures. Then, you'll check again state base effects and see that Multani is a 7/7 with 0 damage

4. Fist of Suns is in play. Can I play a morphed creature paying WUBRG?

I would say no because of this:

409.1b  ..... You can’t apply two alternative methods of playing or two alternative costs to a single spell or ability< ......

5. A Quicksilver Elemental copies the ability of a split-creature (e.g. Nezumi Shortfang). I use this ability and the criterium to "flip" is met. Will the Quicksilver Elemental flip now, even though it is not a split-creature?

Wow, this one's funny
I searched trough the comprules (didn't know this), and found that the elemental has the state "flipped", but because it's not a split creature, it won't affect its characteristic.
So, yes, it will flip

6. My opponent Bolts my animated Mishra´s Factory and it dies. If I control Sacred Ground, will it return to play?

No, because that's a state base effet which put your factory to the graveyard

7. I play Yawgmoth´s Will. Can I slip a Phyrexian Dreadnought under the Illusionary Mask I have in play?

I think the dreadnought is in the yard, right?
If ok, then no, because mask put a face down creature card from your hand into play. The nought is not in your hand

8. I have Mirari in play. My opponent has Standstill in play. Suppose I have Stifle in my hand and I want to play "some" other spell, can I prevent my opponent from drawing 3 cards off his Standstill?  (Yes/No/Only in your own turn/Only in opponents turn)

That´s it!

Final one: Only in opponents turn

How many wrong answers do I have?

Juju, for some one I'm sure, but some others are sooooooo strange...

[Gabethebabe]

Edited Question 7. Yes the nought is in the yard

[ProZachar]

I´ll be a good boy

OK, it seems few people are interested in this thread, so I´ll finish this (from my part) with a couple of yes/no questions.

1. Mana Maze is in play. Can I Brainstorm in my opponent´s upkeep and change the colour of the Brainstorm to Black (with Blind Seer´s ability) to prevent my opponent to start his main phase with a black spell?

No.  The last spell played was a blue one.  It doesn't matter that it resolved as a black spell.

2. Player 1 controls 2 Forests and a Quirion Ranger. Player 2 plays a Sundering Titan. Will Player 1 be able to save the Forest that is about to be Titan-ed?

No.  Titan doesn't target so the choices that Titan's controller makes about which lands to destroy are made entirely on resolution of the Titan's CIP ability.

3. I have 8 cards in hand and Multani, Maro Sorcerer in play. Multani attacks and is blocked by a Verdant Force, taking 7 damage. Will Multani survive when I discard to 7?

Yes.  The maximum-hand-size-enforcement and removal of damage from creatures both happen in the cleanup step; state based effects aren't checked in between those events.

4. Fist of Suns is in play. Can I play a morphed creature paying WUBRG?

If by this you mean "can I play a creature normally even though it has Morph while there's a Fist of Suns in play by paying WUBRG", then the answer is "of course you can" (Exalted Angel for WUBRG instead of 4WW).  If by this you mean "can I play a creature with Morph face down for WUBRG", then the answer is "no", as you're not paying the mana cost for it.

5. A Quicksilver Elemental copies the ability of a split-creature (e.g. Nezumi Shortfang). I use this ability and the criterium to "flip" is met. Will the Quicksilver Elemental flip now, even though it is not a split-creature?

Derf...I've seen this one go by in the judge list but I don't remember the answer.

6. My opponent Bolts my animated Mishra´s Factory and it dies. If I control Sacred Ground, will it return to play?

No.  State based effects killed your Factory, not a spell or ability your opponent controlled.

7. I play Yawgmoth´s Will. Can I slip a Phyrexian Dreadnought from the GY under the Illusionary Mask I have in play?

No.  Mask says to put a creature from your hand into play face down.  Creatures in your graveyard aren't in your hand.  Y. Win lets you treat cards in your 'yard as though they were in your hand only for the purpose of playing them.

8. I have Mirari in play. My opponent has Standstill in play. Suppose I have Stifle in my hand and I want to play "some" other spell, can I prevent my opponent from drawing 3 cards off his Standstill?  (Yes/No/Only in your own turn/Only in opponents turn)

No.

Assuming you have a target for Stifle, you can wind up Stifling the Standstill trigger, but that won't help you get your business spell through:

Suppose it's your opponent's turn (the only way this even comes close to working out).  He cycles Decree of Justice.  You Stifle the Soldier-making ability.  This triggers your Mirari and your opponent's Standstill.  Because he is the active player, his Standstill trigger will go on the stack first, then the Mirari trigger will.  You can pay 3 to the Mirari and get a copy of Stifle and aim it at the Standstill trigger.  When that resolves, the Standstill trigger will be gone and the original Stifle will counter the Soldier-making ability.  However, Standstill will still be in play, ready to trigger on the next spell someone plays.

[Bram]

No. Titan doesn't target so the choices that Titan's controller makes about which lands to destroy are made entirely on resolution of the Titan's CIP ability.

Does it matter that it isn't targeted, though? I would have thought that even if the Titan targeted the land, you couldn't respond to this.

[Jujulautre]

No. Titan doesn't target so the choices that Titan's controller makes about which lands to destroy are made entirely on resolution of the Titan's CIP ability.

Does it matter that it isn't targeted, though? I would have thought that even if the Titan targeted the land, you couldn't respond to this.

If the titan targeted up to five lands, you could save your targeted forest by returning it into your hand with a quirion ranger.

As for all CIP abilities, you can answer to it

[Gabethebabe]

Bram: If Titan targeted, you´d have to announce the targets before putting the ability on the stack.

So yes, it is quite vital that it doesn´t say target

[Bram]

/me slaps himself in the face.

Yes, that's correct obviously. Thanks for clearing it up

[Gabethebabe]

Last ones: Humility (no not with Opalescence).

With Humility in play, can I flip a face down creature up if:
- I played it face down with Illusionary Mask?
- I played it face down because it is a creature with Morph??

[Bram]

As an interlude for this question while you ponder that answer, from MaRo's most recent column:

Top Ten List #5 - Top Ten Cards R&D Has Designed That Guarantees the Rules People The Most Job Security
10) Split Cards
9) Illusionary Mask
8) Mycosynth Lattice
7) Ice Cauldron
6) Fork (and Fork's children)
5) Volrath's Shapeshifter
4) The Licids
3) Vesuvan Doppelganger
2) Opalescence
1) Humility

I have NO idea

[Jujulautre]

Top Ten List #5 - Top Ten Cards R&D Has Designed That Guarantees the Rules People The Most Job Security
10) Split Cards
9) Illusionary Mask
8) Mycosynth Lattice
7) Ice Cauldron
6) Fork (and Fork's children)
5) Volrath's Shapeshifter
4) The Licids
3) Vesuvan Doppelganger
2) Opalescence
1) Humility

I Really love this

If I remember well (and this is the same for morph and mask), the capacity to turn face up a face-down creature is not an ability, so it is not removed by humility.

I'll say you can turn them face up

I think there's something with the morph cost, which disappear with humility in play. But a 2/2 without ability has no morph cost... That's only the "real creature" part which have a morph cost... I don't remember from where I have this idea, but I'm sure it's useful for some rules-trick, perhaps this one

Let's investigate  

[Tristal]

I know you can't morph with Humility in play (Humility removes the text of the card which explains its morph cost.)  I don't really see why Illusionary Mask would be any different, since their goal was to streamline the two mechanics, and Mask's flip activation has a flip cost as well (removing mask counters).

[Jebus]

Regarding the Mirari Standstill, I saw conflicting answers.

You can play "any spell" without your opponent drawing only on your opponents turn.

So, lets say...

Eot I play Necromancy, which triggers Standstill.

I play Stifle targeting this standstill.  Both Standstill and Mirari trigger.

Due to the APNAP rule, Mirari will resolve first.  I'll copy the Stifle and target the new Standstill trigger.  This Stifle copy counters that Standstill trigger, the other Stifle counters the other trigger, and my Necromancy resolves without them ever sacing and drawing cards.

Regarding Humility vs Morph/Mask.

You won't be able to turn a Morph creature face up if Humility is in play.  This is because you cannot determine the Morph cost of what that creature will be.  To turn a creature face-up, you first reveal it and show what it's morph cost would be after the effect ends.  Since it wouldn't have a morph cost when the effect ends due to Humility, it cannot be turned face-up.

Mask is not impeded by this limitation.  You can remove the Mask counters to turn the creature face-up just fine.  That creautre will then be a face-up 1/1 with no abilities due to Humility.

[Jujulautre]

Regarding the Mirari Standstill, I saw conflicting answers.

In fact, I just forgot to say that the standstill was not sacrified... But we have the same answer

Regarding Humility vs Morph/Mask.

You won't be able to turn a Morph creature face up if Humility is in play.  This is because you cannot determine the Morph cost of what that creature will be.  To turn a creature face-up, you first reveal it and show what it's morph cost would be after the effect ends.  Since it wouldn't have a morph cost when the effect ends due to Humility, it cannot be turned face-up.

Mask is not impeded by this limitation.  You can remove the Mask counters to turn the creature face-up just fine.  That creautre will then be a face-up 1/1 with no abilities due to Humility.

I KNEW there were something with humility/morph, but couldn't remember what exactly it was... thanks for this

[Tristal]

What exactly gives the Masked creature its flip ability?  This is where I'm really not sure why Humility doesn't remove it.  Mask grants this creature a static ability, but since it's not written on the card, it's fair game?

[Jebus]

What exactly gives the Masked creature its flip ability?  This is where I'm really not sure why Humility doesn't remove it.  Mask grants this creature a static ability, but since it's not written on the card, it's fair game?

Mask does not grant the creature a Static Ability.

The Mask generates a continuous effect, just like Morph does.

The effect allows you to turn it face-up by removing the Mask counters.

Humility doesn't stop you from doing this.

The only reason Humility prevents you from turning Morph creatures face-up is that it prevents you from determining what cost would need to be paid to end the effect.  However, since you can still remove Mask counters from the creature, the Mask still lets you turn it over.

[serracollector]

Top Ten List #5 - Top Ten Cards R&D Has Designed That Guarantees the Rules People The Most Job Security
10) Split Cards
9) Illusionary Mask
8) Mycosynth Lattice
7) Ice Cauldron
6) Fork (and Fork's children)
5) Volrath's Shapeshifter
4) The Licids
3) Vesuvan Doppelganger
2) Opalescence
1) Humility

This reminds me of a tournament that I went to once where a kid made a deck consisting of:

4 Opalescence
4 Humility
4Confiscate
4Attunement
4Steal Enchantment
4Control Magic
4 Replenish
Power
Counterspells
4 Bazaar of Bhagdad, and mana.  

The deck had no win condition and all the kid wanted to do was drop multiple copies of all the enchantments into play, then replenish and ask the Judge what would happen, as (depending on how the cards came into play etc.)the cards would turn into creatures, start enchanting the other enchantments, lose their abilities, fall off, get their abilities back, reenchant, etc etc.  After the lvl 2 Judge couldn't figure it out, he got a lvl 3, the lvl 3 called a lvl 4.  After about 20 minutes on the phone with the lvl 4 judge describing what this kid did, he hung up, and kicked the kid out of the tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct LOL.  Some ppl are arses.

[Gandalf_The_White_1]

Top Ten List #5 - Top Ten Cards R&D Has Designed That Guarantees the Rules People The Most Job Security
10) Split Cards
9) Illusionary Mask
8) Mycosynth Lattice
7) Ice Cauldron
6) Fork (and Fork's children)
5) Volrath's Shapeshifter
4) The Licids
3) Vesuvan Doppelganger
2) Opalescence
1) Humility

This reminds me of a tournament that I went to once where a kid made a deck consisting of:

4 Opalescence
4 Humility
4Confiscate
4Attunement
4Steal Enchantment
4Control Magic
4 Replenish
Power
Counterspells
4 Bazaar of Bhagdad, and mana.  

The deck had no win condition and all the kid wanted to do was drop multiple copies of all the enchantments into play, then replenish and ask the Judge what would happen, as (depending on how the cards came into play etc.)the cards would turn into creatures, start enchanting the other enchantments, lose their abilities, fall off, get their abilities back, reenchant, etc etc.  After the lvl 2 Judge couldn't figure it out, he got a lvl 3, the lvl 3 called a lvl 4.  After about 20 minutes on the phone with the lvl 4 judge describing what this kid did, he hung up, and kicked the kid out of the tournament for unsportsmanlike conduct LOL.  Some ppl are arses.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL.  That sounds like sharazad.dec except worse because no one can figure out what's going on.  Also, at least with zad you can actually kill them.

[Gabethebabe]

Another simple one:

Suppose my opponents use Welder to switch the Nought in my yard and the Emerald I have in play. After this has resolved, what is the top card in my graveyard (of course I don´t have P12 creatures to sac).

Goblin Welder

Creature -- Goblin
1/1
: Choose target artifact a player controls and target artifact card in that player's graveyard. If both targets are still legal as this ability resolves, that player sacrifices the artifact in play, then puts the other artifact from his or her graveyard into play.

Phyrexian Dreadnought

Artifact Creature
12/12
Trample
If Phyrexian Dreadnought would come into play, sacrifice any number of creatures with total power 12 or greater instead. If you do, put Phyrexian Dreadnought into play. If you don't, put it into its owner's graveyard.