[Deck] R/B Goblins

[Pex]

Hello everybody,

I designed a new deck and I need some help with it. I just began playing t1 ( Like in the old days  :wink: ) and I’ve been studying the current metagame for a while. I’m going to play a red/black goblin disruption deck in the Eindhoven tournament this weekend ( Fish got bored ). But some help with card choices would be appreciated.

Let’s begin with my current decklist:

4 Duress
4 Reanimate
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Goblin Welder
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Mogg Fanatic

1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Badlands
1 Swamp
6 Mountain

4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard:

4 Rack and Ruin
4 Red Elemental Blast
7 **

** Options:

Blood Moon
Null Rod?
Terminate?
Chalice of the Void
Pyrostatic Pillar
Tormods Crypt
Fire/Ice

Maybe Goblin Vandal of Warchief for the Main?

I especially need help with the sideboard, the 4 rack and 4 ReB are pretty standard and they serve me well so..

I’ll explain some cards choices:

Reanimate  --> I can reanimate their good stuff, like S. Titan, Platinum Angel, maybe Welder. Or I can reanimate my own dead goblins..

Chains  --> It’s just insane, I need this against combo decks and since I don’t play any card drawers this cards is just nuts.

Goblin Welder  --> I don’t play any interresting artifacts, but because Drain Slaver en Workshops decks are populair it’s just a good card.

Thanks!

Alex

[Dr. Sylvan]

Could you explain more about the results of your testing?

I don't want to reflexively lock the thread, since I do think you're exploring an interesting idea, but we need more information to help you out! :)

[Pex]

Sorry, I didn't test much...

Only against Workshop decks. That's where the Reanimates really shine.
They discard their Titans and I steal them, their welders die as soon as they hit play.
When he gets a Titan, I try to race him..

I always start with the disruption, First the Duresses and the Wastelands then the creatures. So I play Duress over Lackey on turn 1.

I will post my results in Eindhoven on sunday ( If the thread is not locked ).

[jazzykat]

Could you explain more about the results of your testing?

I don't want to reflexively lock the thread, since I do think you're exploring an interesting idea, but we need more information to help you out!

First to Dr. Sylvan: Bravo!

Secondly: Dr. Sylvan is right though.

A few questions:

1. Is this supposed to be a true hatedeck?
2. Is null rod complete crap in this deck or meta?
3. Is crucible a bad choice to recur strips?

[True Lies Ownz]

Definetly needs warchief, siege gang, maybe prospector and sharpshooter.

[jazzykat]

Definetly needs warchief, siege gang, maybe prospector and sharpshooter.

Well pex should definitely either put in more gobbos that cost more or ditch the lackeys (unless they are a ploy to draw FOW's????) but I don't think the idea of the deck is to turn it into food chain. Maybe a R/B weenie,disruption, hate deck is in the works here....it seems like for an unpowered deck it might  be brutal.

Oh, and one more thing welders vs. control slaver are a liability. You are best to use your monkeys vs. them.

[Pex]

It's not food chain and I tested it with 2 Siege Gangs en 4 Warchiefs, but they were to slow and not needed. The Lackey doesn't do much now, I know. But when you cast a lackey early your opponent will be afraid for Siege Gangs or whatever so he wants to remove it... Same goes Goblin Welder ( If I start with Mountain Welder ) So they aren't bad.. just play mind tricks with your opponent.

The goal is not to beat your opponent down with fast beats. The plan is that your keep disrupting your opponent and beat him down with a piledriver and a few gobbo's. Currently I proxied the power, In no Proxy tournaments I plan to play it budget with a Lotus Petal and a Mountain instead of the 2 Moxes.

Your right about maybe changing the creature base. Maybe Goblins isn't the right choice. But I have no other ideas in which creatures to play else... suggestions?

Crucible could be good, but I don't play many lands ( 21 + 1 lotus petal )... But I think I'll put 2 in my sideboard for sunday and test them.

Null Rod is insane... But I didn't want to play mana artifacts because everybody plays hate... If I don't play Crucible and Null Rod I only play 1 lotus petal ... That makes me less vulnerable to all the artifact hate.
But on the other side, If I add Crucible AND Null Rod to the deck, the welders can do something, maybe add some extra cheap artifacts for welder.

[Toad]

How can Goblin Lackey and Goblin Piledriver be good with only 16 Goblins? Just cut the non Welder Goblins for stuff like Grim Lavamancer and friends if you don't use at least 24 or 26 Goblins. Goblin Vandals, Goblin Warchief and Siege Gang Commander are must have. Gempalm Incinerator is better at dealing with creatures than Lightning Bolt. Goblin Sharpshooter is strong too (depending on the meta)

Cabal Therapy is better than Duress. Skullclamps become really strong then. Chains of Mephistopheles does not really fit in the usual Goblins game plan (It does not deal damage and is horrible tempo when dropped on turn 2). Reanimate is a big wtf? You probably don't need 4 Badlands. 2 seem enough, just add 1 basic Swamp and 1 basic Mountain instead. Basics are good. And Pulverize is just better than Rack and Ruin most of the time.

[mrieff]

This deck has a very slow kill w/o the extra Goblins. You only have 4 creatures with power greater than 1! Your list is also missing Y' Will.

You have a bad aggro base, no card advantage, and reasonable disruption. Furthermore you have at least 8 questionable cards (Reanimate and Bolt) for a competitive metagame. And 8 of your 1/1 utility men are situational (Welder and Shaman).

In summary, I am not a fan.

[Pex]

Like I said before:

The goal is not to beat your opponent down with fast beats. The plan is that your keep disrupting your opponent and beat him down with a piledriver and a few gobbo's.

But I guess your right about the creatures. I think It will be better without Piledriver and friends and instead play some Good creatures:

So the creature base will be something like:

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Welder
4 Gorilla Shaman
8 *?

I guess 20 or 16 creatures is a good number. Maybe add Vandal or Fanatic ( still good against opponents Welders of Fish but not super )...

Any suggestions?

[policehq]

I think going with Goblin Warchief and Goblin Ringleader would be a good plan. The synnergy between Chains of Mephistopheles and Goblin Ringleader seem awesome at the moment.

Barry

[ReAnimator]

Have you thought about running sparksmith or grim lavamancer instead of the gWelders? It seems the welders are really dead here compared to just killing opposing welders, i could almost understand them if you had crucibles just so you could get them back if they are destroyed (if you played more artifacts)

Are reanimate and chains necessary maindeck? chanis seem good versus most decks, but reanimates are dead in a lot of matches. Cabal slaver may be amusing vs control especialy with the chains. Maybe drop one Chains for a demonic tutor.

Have you thought of a little more acceleration maybe chrome mox or petal, i know they are "bad" but in here accel is probably more important than the card disadvantage especialy if you can get a chains down.

What exactly do you do versus chalice for 1 ?   if you  add a DT you could probably run a rack and ruin  or a viashino heretic main.

for your sideboard i would have a few tormods crypts in there and possibly viashino heretics or fractured loyalty vs colosuss and other big men.

hope this is useful/helpful

[Sammy]

I think instead of looking for a good red creature to win with you may want to consider an artifact creature, such as Juggernaut. Or if not maybe a good black creature. Kokusho is making a large number of showings in T2, and I know T1 isnt anythin near T2, but he may be a good choice. I dont know how much mana you normally get out, but if you normally get a lot consider him.

Also you should board Pyrostatic Pillar and Scald. They are defintly good choices for a R/* hate deck, and another goblin you may consider is Zo-Zu the Punisher.

[Justinsane]

Maybe i have been playing too much type 4, but could nezumi graverobber be a possibility?  It works as disruption, by removing their yard, and he can turn into a 4/2 beater with zombify ability.

[Hi-Val]

This deck loves Living Death as much as I like malt liquor, hookers and rock cocaine. If you fit in Prospectors, you can do a massive Living Death midgame and wrath the board. Against control, it brings all your stuff back for the second wave and against aggro and aggro/control, you put your dorks in for theirs.

Also-- vampiric tutor over Demonic Tutor?

You also REALLY want Cabal Therapy. Being able to reliably do it twice in one turn is bomby, and they'll really shine against the workshop decks that draw multiple Trinispheres. Also, great synergy with Living Death!

[jazzykat]

Firstly, living death could be cool!!!!!!!!!!
Secondly, I think that unless your meta is low power that null rod is a must. It slows down powered decks a little and  allows your other disruption more time to be effective.

[Pex]

I wanna say a couple of things:

You guys think this is a aggro goblins deck... IT'S NOT!
It plays like Fish... Little Critters for the beats and lot's of disruption.

Cabal Therapy is not good in a format where everyone plays with restricted cards. I know it's good in a normal Goblin Build but not in this deck.. Duress is so much better. I don't want to sac my precious creatures..

I only play 22 lands.. I don't need more. Demonic tutor's costs 1B and it's a sorcery... If I play it I lose a turn. With the Vamp I can play a Welder or Shaman in my own turn, end of turn search for the card I need and play it in my own turn..

Check out the Ankh Sligh creature base:

4 Goblin Welder
4 Goblin Vandal
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Gorilla Shaman

That's the same number of Goblins I play and also 4 Piledrivers... So why need more?

Just keep in mind that this is a B/R fish deck... Not Goblin Beatdown..

[Bauerkrieg]

I think that the creature base is quite strong. 16 goblins including 4 piledrivers is more than enough to be effective. I do not think that a warchief is a good thing for this build, but I do think that 2 bang-gang commanders are a good thing for the deck. With a lackey first drop, a gang banger can make the game go quite quickly. I think that the lackeys should stay in the deck regardless, because we all love free spells in type 1.

As far as reanimate goes, I think that it is questionable. I like the idea of stealing other creatures that get thrown into the graveyard, but at some other points it is a dead card. TPS, Draw seven, and Belcher are all decks that play no creatures and makes this a dead 4 slot in you pre board matchup. With the matchup against dragon, you will be lucky to get one dragon, or laquatus, but there is usually one or more dragons in the grave, and at least two other kill conditions as caller of the call or sliver queen. I would put in more burn since it is good creature removal and it can go to the dome.

As far as this deck being like fish, it can't. Fish plays spells like cloud of faries, gim lavamancer, spiketail hatchling, ect. to get underneath a standstill wall that is backed up by counters. With the black elements in the decklist, you are merely disrupting the hand of your opponent. This gain in tempo must be exploited by beats, beats and more aggro beats. If you try to play a slower fish type tempo, you will loose since you have no card draw in the deck.

I like the deck idea. Demonic tutor is a must, itis restriced for a reason. I think that at least 2 null rods are necessary, even if there is low power. You only run two moxes, so the mana should not be a problem.

[Covetous]

You can't make a deck aggro-control without counterspells.  Plain and simple.  If you want to run B/R, then you must by necessity be more on the aggro side of things because you will always be proactive (i.e. discard).  Duress/Cabal Therapy/discard is great in the first few turns, but after your opponent enters topdeck mode such cards become next to useless.  Thus, they are only proactive answers.  And thus, without true reactive answers (read: counterspells) you can't be aggro-control.  Thus, your gameplan of disrupt and then slowly ride a piledriver to victory will naturally be less effective than it would be if you were to disrupt in the first 2-3 turns and ride a bunch of dorks to the win quickly.  It's a fine distinction, but legitimate.  The real difference is that aggro decks with disruption will not really have a good long game because they aren't as broken as other decks and don't have the staying power.  Your best bet is to win ASAP after throwing your opponent off-balance with your early disruption.  The longer the game progresses, the lower your chances of winning.

Off the top of my head, you could consider something like this:

4 goblin lackey (he's good even without siege-gang)
4 gorilla shaman
4 mogg fanatic
4 goblin piledriver
4 grim lavamancer (anti-synergy with ywill, unfortunately)
4 goblin vandal/goblin tinkerer (tinkerer for those pesky chalices for 1)
4 duress
4 cabal therapy/something else
4 null rod
1 demonic tutor (you don't need to play it early, remember, so "losing a turn" is irrelevant unless you are already so far gone that all you have left is to DT)
1 yawgmoth's will/wheel of fortune/something else (maybe another goblin)
1 mox ruby
1 mox jet
1 black lotus
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
4 badlands (or fewer + more basics)
4 bloodstained mire
1 swamp
5 mountain

Just because decks play restricted cards doesn't mean that cabal therapy is crap.  You can duress then therapy and smash face.  Nearly all decks have several 4-ofs that you can reliably guess.  Therapy is a proactive answer to anything that might piss you off.  Cards like Oath, Force, 3sphere, chalice, etc. can all be nuked by an early Therapy.  The problem with this sort of deck is that a lack of card draw can force you to lose to other decks once you are both in topdeck mode and they can out-draw you.  I hope this helps.