[deck] Meandeck Oath

[Machinus]

While many people (including myself) have had high hopes for the deck made available by Forbidden Orchard, I can say honestly that my version is a lot different from this. Besides the central Oath engine, plus power, drains, and forces, the only thing that is similar about my build is the 4x  Mana Leak. Everything else is pretty radically different. Anyway, I felt like this deck should be up here so we can get to talking about it.

MeanDeck Oath:

4 Intuition
4 AK
4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
4 FoW
4 Mana Drain
4 Mana Leak
2 Misdirection
4 Oath of Druids
1 Akroma
1 Spirit of the Night
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Gaea's Blessing

4 Forbidden Orchard
1 Tropical Island
4 Fetchlands
5 Island
5 Moxen
1 Black Lotus
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland

A really interesting facet of this deck is that it is really just monoblue + oath. With 4 orchards and fetchlands, the deck could easily support three colors, but not only is there a lack of splashing, but only three strip effects.

Also very notable are the chosen kill conditions. While many (again, including myself) chose DSC, here we have hasted flyers at half the power.

I am eagerly looking forward to some MeanDeck explanations of the choices.

[Saucemaster]

Well first off, before the inevitable ensues, let me remind you all that this was composed for a specific metagame at a specific time.  So answers w/r/t this build need to be seen in that very particular light.  Even our own team members have differing builds depending on the decks they're expecting to face.

1) Akroma + SotN is almost always at least as fast as DSC, and I would say that a near majority of the time, they're a turn faster.  You do 18 damage by the second turn after you resolve Oath as opposed to 11, and while that means that technically you're not lethal until the next turn, it's not exactly hard for your opponent to deal him/herself 2 damage in the first few turns.  I know exactly what you're thinking though, because Smmenen had to do some pretty serious convincing to make me take Akroma/Spirit seriously.

2) The monoblue comparison, while it seems to make sense at first blush, is actually a little off.  You should be comparing it to aggro-control.  It plays much closer to Gro than it does to MonoU.  Do not play this deck like you would MonoU, or you will lose far too many games.  This is actually probably the fundamental difference between this build and alot of the other builds floating around: in most of its matchups, this deck does not want answers, it wants threats.  It runs 14 counterspells because it wants to resolve those threats, and because it wants to ride out its opponents' answers or counter-threats long enough to make them irrelevant.

3)  Lack of 3rd color: we expected a million and a half Wastelands at SCG, and there were.  We have enough issues with Wasteland as it is, no sense making it worse.  Does that mean that the deck shouldn't ever be three colors, or that in another field a three-color build would be inferior?  Not necessarily.  We had builds with black and builds with red as tertiary colors.  In the end, against the decks we expected to face, they didn't add enough.

4) Three Strips: it's hard to fit in more.  The deck doesn't really want them, it wants to do its thing and swing with Angels while you counter long enough to kill them.  To that end, it would rather have more blue mana to Brainstorm/Impulse/Intuition into Leak or Drain or FoW, etc.  But unfortunately, we had to consider the possibility that we'd run into the mirror--both against our own teammates and the pseudo-mirror against other players running Orchards with Colossus or maybe, God help them, Cognivore.  And the mirror is just one big Orchard war.  Honestly you want the full 5 Wastes in the mirror, and hell maybe a couple Dust Bowls, but you have to draw the line somewhere.  We didn't expect to see many mirrors, and that judgment proved correct.  We just needed to make sure that when we did, we'd have *something* in game 1 to answer it.  This is something that will almost certainly change now that the deck's had some success and the mirror is a real possibility.

5) 4 Intuitions.  So sexy.  So very, very sexy.  Love them like they deserve to be loved.

[Machinus]

You do 18 damage by the second turn after you resolve Oath as opposed to 11, and while that means that technically you're not lethal until the next turn, it's not exactly hard for your opponent to deal him/herself 2 damage in the first few turns.  I know exactly what you're thinking though, because Smmenen had to do some pretty serious convincing to make me take Akroma/Spirit seriously.

This part doesn't make any sense. You deal 6 damage the turn you oath, 6 more the turn after, and 6 more the turn after. That is 18 in three turns.
With DSC you do 0 the turn you oath, 10 the turn after, and 10 the turn after. That is 20 damage in three turns. wtf?

[Robert the Swordsman]

You do 18 damage by the second turn after you resolve Oath as opposed to 11, and while that means that technically you're not lethal until the next turn, it's not exactly hard for your opponent to deal him/herself 2 damage in the first few turns.  I know exactly what you're thinking though, because Smmenen had to do some pretty serious convincing to make me take Akroma/Spirit seriously.

This part doesn't make any sense. You deal 6 damage the turn you oath, 6 more the turn after, and 6 more the turn after. That is 18 in three turns.
With DSC you do 0 the turn you oath, 10 the turn after, and 10 the turn after. That is 20 damage in three turns. wtf?

Spirit of the Night has haste, too.

I didn't believe the stories of a non-Collossus Oath taking SCG. That has since been corrected, it would seem.

[serialjester]

You do 18 damage by the second turn after you resolve Oath as opposed to 11, and while that means that technically you're not lethal until the next turn, it's not exactly hard for your opponent to deal him/herself 2 damage in the first few turns.  I know exactly what you're thinking though, because Smmenen had to do some pretty serious convincing to make me take Akroma/Spirit seriously.

This part doesn't make any sense. You deal 6 damage the turn you oath, 6 more the turn after, and 6 more the turn after. That is 18 in three turns.
With DSC you do 0 the turn you oath, 10 the turn after, and 10 the turn after. That is 20 damage in three turns. wtf?

6 the turn you Oath, with either Akroma or SotN
Play some random spell, draw or countermagic using the Orchard before your next turn.
Oath up the remaining creature during your next turn, swing for 12.

They are likely to die from Fow/Fetch damage sustained prior to the attack for 12. I imagine it'd get interesting if they manage to get rid of one of the tokens, stopping the 2nd Oath activation, or at least delaying it. Mirror matches are going to be rife with Cabal Therapy type effects in no time.

[rozetta]

My first thought was that either Cabal Therapy or Skullclamp would make great sideboard cards for the mirror. While neither allows you to sac the spirit tokens you get at instant speed, if you combine strip effects as delaying tactics, you can not only negate the effect of their Oath, but actually profit from the Orchards (or prevent them from being used, making the mana denial strategy stronger). I wonder if these sort of decks will evolve towards having transformational sideboards to negate the "mirror" plan (i.e. no Oath)? Then things get turned into an insane guessing game. With this build, there's also the AK plan guessing game, too. Nasty.

[serialjester]

My first thought was that either Cabal Therapy or Skullclamp would make great sideboard cards for the mirror. While neither allows you to sac the spirit tokens you get at instant speed, if you combine strip effects as delaying tactics, you can not only negate the effect of their Oath, but actually profit from the Orchards (or prevent them from being used, making the mana denial strategy stronger). I wonder if these sort of decks will evolve towards having transformational sideboards to negate the "mirror" plan (i.e. no Oath)? Then things get turned into an insane guessing game. With this build, there's also the AK plan guessing game, too. Nasty.

I thought of Skullclamp as well, a few minutes after I posted. I think it's good, since I don't see Null Rod coming out to hose Clamp in this particular deck. This deck is also going to be frustrated at times due to the new legend rule when it plays the mirror, Akromas and Spirits are going to be blowing up all over the place, I'm curious if the lone Blessing will end up being enough, but then again this is a list for the current field.

[MisterShark]

The build that I'm running currently sports Misdirection x3, which I think is worth tugging an Impulse out of the posted list for.

 - Misdirection will almost always be able to redirect an opponent's Diabolic Edict/ StP to their Spirit Token.  Protecting your Akroma or DSC when you are tapped out seems much more important to me than hitting one of the random Impulses.

 - Misdirection will protect an early-game Oath casting, while you are tapped out, thereby allowing you to lay the Oath down earlier than you would if you otherwise had to keep UU open. You would be less likely to have drawn a pitch-counter with one less Mis-d.  
Otherwise, you would not be able to tap out & lay down Oath 1st or second turn, and still have a great chance of protecting against Disenchant-type spells during your opponent's turn.  

Besides Oath to get your beat stick into play (for those playing DSC instead of Spirit/Akroma), why not include Tinker as an alternate way to get DSC online?

[TheStu]

Besides Oath to get your beat stick into play (for those playing DSC instead of Spirit/Akroma), why not include Tinker as an alternate way to get DSC online?

Well since there's only 5 artifacts in the deck to begin with, aside from colossus, it wouldn't be that viable of an option now would it? Nothing worse than a dead card in hand eh?

[Kowal]

DSC is horrible anyway.  Auto-losing to goblin welder is a terrible strategy.

The list Meandeck presents isn't exactly breaking news, but the creature base is without a doubt what allowed them to perform at Richmond.

[andrewpate]

True, but I would definitely run Tinker if I were using the build with Wheel, Twister, Jar, and all the broken artifact mana.  In that deck, Tinker is just as good as it is in Meandeath.

[Kowal]

But that's not what this thread is about.  Stay on topic.

[Tristal]

I thought of Skullclamp as well, a few minutes after I posted. I think it's good, since I don't see Null Rod coming out to hose Clamp in this particular deck.

Skullclamp will draw you some cards here and there, but given the complete lack of real answers in this build, it won't do anything to address the real problem - you're getting your face smashed in by a 6 power hasted creature.  You can only clamp as a sorcery, so any smart Oath player is just gonna Orchard you at the end of your turn anyway.  You will untap with an Orchard token that's clampable, but they've already Oathed once.

The real answer might be something like Altar of Dementia, which really makes it so your opponent can't Oath.

[Saucemaster]

This part doesn't make any sense. You deal 6 damage the turn you oath, 6 more the turn after, and 6 more the turn after. That is 18 in three turns.
With DSC you do 0 the turn you oath, 10 the turn after, and 10 the turn after. That is 20 damage in three turns. wtf?

Well they already covered this, but the other point I forgot to mention is that this way, they can't block with the tokens and use your Oath themselves.  That doesn't always matter, but there are times when it'll slow you down by at least a turn or two.

Akroma/Spirit isn't ideal in all matchups, but I honestly do view Colossus as the lesser option.  If you need a different creature base, that's what the sideboard's for.

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I got it! Goblin Bombardment! The answer to everything!..... heh yeah I know. I should probably put those Maze of Iths back in my SB... Going to be a long day November 6th.

[MisterShark]

Besides Oath to get your beat stick into play (for those playing DSC instead of Spirit/Akroma), why not include Tinker as an alternate way to get DSC online?

Well since there's only 5 artifacts in the deck to begin with, aside from colossus, it wouldn't be that viable of an option now would it? Nothing worse than a dead card in hand eh?

Actually it would: that's what Brainstorms and fetchies are for.  
I only run one more artifact in my build (Sol Ring) and a fifth fetchie, so there's not a whole lot of difference there, and I have never had a problem Brainstorming away a Tinker in the instance that I cannot immediately use it.  Worse-case scenario; it's pitchable.

DSC is horrible anyway.  Auto-losing to goblin welder is a terrible strategy.

That's what I run Krosan Reclamation in the board for (and one Cunning Wish main), not to mention Damping Matrix.

[Kowal]

Why waste slots on at best mediocre cards when you can just run the other creatures and effectively kill at the same speed?  Also, the flying actually does come in handy, say, if you're playing against someone running Madness or even Fish if you're a little slow in establishing a resolved Oath.

Another important note is that an Akroma or Spirit of the Night getting removed by Duplicant won't kill you nearly as fast as an 11/11 duplicant would.

[MisterShark]

Why waste slots on at best mediocre cards when you can just run the other creatures and effectively kill at the same speed?

O.K., point taken.  But since we've mentioned the sideboard, I am quite curious as to what that consisted of.  

[Kowal]

Meandeck has revealed they were running two additional creatures in Iridescent Angel and Pristine Angel.  They also had Energy Flux and Back to Basics in the sideboard.

Meandeckers, care to reveal before they go up on SCG?

[jpmeyer]

IIRC, the only additional creature in the SB was 1 Platinum Angel

[Yames]

I played a 3-colour version of oath at a tourney this past weekend and my only match loss in the Swiss rounds came from Dragon and some good fast-talking by my opponent and the tourney organizer.  It was trash he make "infinity mana" and mills me until the only card left in my Library is the Gaea's Blessing then pass the turn let me draw it and since I had no green mana source pass the turn again to let me lose.  It sounds cute in theory but that little rule 421 about choosing a number for an infinite loop and the fact that he should have burned for infinity - what he spent milling me.  I just wish I had thought of that before I was sitting in my car driving home after the tourney.
On to the point.  The best thing about this deck is that you have access to every colour. I play with 4 Duress rather then the Mana Leak.  I liked knowing what deck I was facing turn one so I could plan out my turns knowing what the threats would be.  I also like having access to Cunning Wish targets.  I have room in my sideboard for a swords.  1 Echoing Truth saved me from a spirit token beat down against Tog in round 2.
The Problems I Saw...
I felt Intuition was a little slow for me at 3 mana I'm going to do some testing with Lim Dul's Vault in its place.
I use DSC and I figure it's only a mater of time before Sigil of Sleep ruins my plans.
In Round 3 I played against Death Long.  I had 4 Chalice in SB, which I brought in and stalled with at 0 for long enough for me to win.  I have tested this against Long running its own Forbidden Orchard and its pretty bad for me since my oath usually never goes my way.
I play with 2 Crucible because I didn't want to be caught without Forbidden Orchard in play.  I only found room in the mana base for a strip mine.  I can foresee as this deck becomes more popular wanting desperately for Wastelands when you face a mirror match or the combo decks.  Nothing ruins your oath plans more then having a **** load of 1/1's sitting around.

[Corndog]

What the dragon player is fine. If you had asked the Judge, he'd of said pick a number. Dragon picks 10 million then mill your deck. However I believe the game played out incorrectly. The blessing would trigger. no matter how many cards you milled, when the stack would resolve the graveyard would be shuffled back into your library. The only way for dragon to win with the responding to blessing method is to make you draw a card somehow.

Please someone correct me if i am wrong.

Later
Cory

[Jebus]

We had a rather large discussion about this scenario in the rules forum.  I don't like getting into this as its a very weird situation.  Unfortunately, I can only see it come up again.

I don't agree with the sentiment that you have probablity to get it so Blessing is the last card in the library, so you should just put it there.

It isn't certain to happen within a certain amount of activations, so it cannot be done.  I find it unfortuante that they ruled otherwise, but that's the breaks.  Head judge descision is final.

[Saucemaster]

Meandeckers, care to reveal before they go up on SCG?

SB:

3 Ground Seal
3 Energy Flux
2 Back to Basics
2 Arcane Laboratory (aka the SauceSaver, <3)
2 Control Magic (so-so)
1 Iridescent Angel
1 Pristine Angel
1 Platinum Angel

A.k.a. the "Meandeck's Angels" sideboard.

[thecapn]

Another important note is that an Akroma or Spirit of the Night getting removed by Duplicant won't kill you nearly as fast as an 11/11 duplicant would.

Duplicant doesn't retain the creature's abilities, either.  In the swiss, Jay (2nd place) tinkered out Duplicant to remove my Akroma, but I was able to win the game with 2 SotN swings before he could race or deal with the Spirit.

[Thug]

I played 2 Colossi last tournament, and I liked them alot. The flyers have a lot of potential too. Here's a list of pro's I can come up with:

Colossus:

Pro:

- If you only get to oath once you have a bigger and better creature (this happened to me quite a lot because of opposing wastelands.)
- You get to run Tinker as another random win card
- It can handle Sundering Titan very good
- Get shuffled back into library
- Doesn't die to Keg, Disk etc.
- Slightly easier to hardcast (you don't need lotus)

Flyers:

- Immediatly kill any opponent at >7 lives.
- Can kill a turn faster if opponent at >19 lives and Orchard not wasted
- Flies over Spirit Tokens
- Welder Proof
- Akroma can attack and block
- More Duplicant proof

---

I probably missed some points, but I think the most important ones are here. I think it's a very close call. Welders are not that much of a problem people think they are. The fact that Flyers might kill a turn faster is nice, but not a deciding factor, since you will be in control often enough.

The right choice probably depends on metagame and the setup of the rest of the deck.

---

3 Ground Seal
3 Energy Flux
2 Back to Basics
2 Arcane Laboratory (aka the SauceSaver, <3)
2 Control Magic (so-so)
1 Iridescent Angel
1 Pristine Angel
1 Platinum Angel

Why the Iridescent Angel and the Pristine Angel? To dodge Swords and Control Magic/Gilded Drakes?

---

The only thing I really miss in this version of Oath is a emergency button. Even with a single Wish/Explosives I would feel a lot more comfortable if I would play this deck.

Personally I like a more controllish approach, since it still allows you to pul of random wins against non-control decks. And against control decks instead of more search and pitch, you get more draw which should win you the matchup just as easy.

Koen

[Machinus]

Flyers:

- Immediatly kill any opponent at >7 lives.
- Can kill a turn faster if opponent at >19 lives and Orchard not wasted
- Flies over Spirit Tokens
- Welder Proof
- Akroma can attack and block
- More Duplicant proof

The welder argument really is the only one that makes DSC NOT an auto-include. The tokens don't make any difference because of trample, and duplicant is not a very common card to face, much less common than welder.

I might have mentioned this in the other thread, but there are many solutions to welder. The best one is just to run chalices. If you don't like that, add red for fire/ice. The deck can handle it. In a mixed metagame, DCS is durable and powerful.

[Saucemaster]

Why the Iridescent Angel and the Pristine Angel? To dodge Swords and Control Magic/Gilded Drakes?

Mostly they were for siding in against control, to fuck up their sideboarding.  I distinctly remember, for example, Steve having Iridescent in play against a 4cC player who was sitting with a completely and utterly useless StP in hand, for example.  And Pristine, in particular, trumps Exalted Angel.  They're pretty much the go-to girls against any deck that doesn't put you on a clock or that has answers to your creatures.

The welder argument really is the only one that makes DSC NOT an auto-include. The tokens don't make any difference because of trample, and duplicant is not a very common card to face, much less common than welder.

Respectfully, I disagree.  DSC is almost always slower, which is a big minus, and the tokens DO matter, because they're going to get to kill them off and then Oath for themselves.  And I know it's been beaten to death, but just to reiterate, Welder is very much a problem.  Ideally you want their Welder to actually HELP you win.  Your game plan is: play Oath, win.  If you use DSC and you're playing against any of the many decks featuring 4 Welders maindeck, your gameplan is now: answer Welder, play Oath, win.  That extra step can kill you.  Of course, there are decks like Control Slaver that STILL force you to counter their first-turn Welders because the card is just that dangerous, but at least now it's not *always* necessary to answer Welder. The other issue is that people are prepared for Colossi.  Once again, this deck was about surprise.

[effang]

so how exactly would one go about dealing with an oathed iridescent angel?  and why not just run two? have you found that you have always held an impulse, brainstorm, or intuition/ak in hand when attacking with the pristine?

great choice of animals, never expected.

[TJ-Whoopy]

I've been tinkering around with this new fangled thingy and have noticed everybody trying to figure out the way to win the mirror

I got it, blasting station (sorry about the crappy link I'm not so computer savy as most)

http://www.cardkingdom.com/card_viewer.php?sid=938045297&pid=111437

kill all the tokens you want at instant speed with no inconvienient colored mana costs I'm not sure exactly how the SBing for it would work probably - 4 oath, - big baddies that you can't cast , + 3 or 4 blasting chamber, + 3 or 4 smaller baddies you can cast like morphling.