Oath of Druids - Is it the New Goblin Welder?

[Covetous]

Oath = Welder insofar as they both cheat casting costs and thus allow unplayable/overcosted/expensive cards (akroma, sundering titan) to become playable.  Thus, they allow you to use very powerful cards which normally are prohibitively costed.  The question of how to beat Oath and the Oath mirror is going to be one that serious players will have to consider over the coming weeks and months.  I expect builds of Oath to come out sporting every combination of colors from UG to 5c, and using every Oath strategy ever (control/oath, turboland/oath, yawgwin/oath) plus possibly come up with new strategies.  I personally like the straight-up control-oath plan because it allows you to play control and beatdown as needed. The turboland strategy doesn't generally permit you to play enough control spells to be successful in the long run.  And, I will continue to be skeptical of oath/witness/yawgwin until it is proven--it seems too fragile to be successful in the long run.  Fragile decks don't have long-term success in type 1, as we have seen countless times.  Stable, consistent decks are the ones that win tourneys.  Inconsistent but powerful decks may T8 but rarely win.  

On a personal note, I will be focusing on UGB Oath because I like it--it has a lot of powerful cards that I like to play with that might give it the edge in the mirror.  I think that someone will come up with some useful tech that really owns the mirror yet is also good against other decks.  That's the challenge--to find cards that are good against multiple decks instead of trying to hate against a single threat.  Some of the janky possibilities that I have considered are Extract, Jester's Cap and Proteus Staff, but I'm sure that there are many others waiting in our collective crap binders waiting to make a splash.

[NCM]

I had the idea of put 1 or maybe 2 togs in an oath deck with no blessings.

The problem with that is that Tog doesn't have haste and that was one reason why Meandeck's builds were so much more successful.  If you do decide to run Mr. Teeth, however, I would reccomend splashing red for Mountains and Anger (or something).

As for the topic, is Oath new?  No.  It's been around since Exodus.  That was many many many years ago.  Spirit of the Night has been around even longer than that.  The only real "new" part(s) of it are Forbidden Orchard (and maybe Akroma).  Sorry to be a dick, but it's true.

Is it a "Goblin Welder"?  Before I answer what I think of that, let me show what I think that term means.  Sit down and get comfortable.  This may take more than 10 seconds.

Goblin Welder is an efficient little dork who, in the past year, has gotten exponentially better.  It has been nigh synonymous with the words "Mindslaver", "Pentavus", and, above all, "Mishra's Workshop".  How did this guy who is smaller than a Kobold get so good in the past year?  We all know THAT story (and if you don't, I want you to stand on one foot and wear an aluminum hat SO WE KNOW WHO YOU ARE! ).
Anyway, factored in with the weenies of G@y/r Fish and the semi-weenies of WTF, type one players had to ask themselves a question:

"Can my deck deal with 1/1s in a way that does not disrupt my general gameplan?"

Because of this, people devised many many ways to hate out the Gobbo from Hell.  This is a short list off the top of my head.

Fire/Ice
BEB/Hydroblast
Ground Seal
Slice and Dice
Lava Dart
etc.

In theory, Welder was not hard to hate out of the format.
In theory.

So let's review.  A "Goblin Welder" is:

1.  Something that was just made a lot better by a new set.
2.  Something that warps the meta or has made an EXTREMELY prominent showing at a tournament.
3.  Something that, theoretically, can be hated out with little difficulty.

Does Oath meet these equirements?

1.  Yes.  Forbidden Orchard is pure gold (no pun intended) in this deck and has enabled it to go off much earlier than it ever had previously.  It's that simple.
2.  Sort of.  Although it did sucessfully annex half of the top 8 at Starcitygames Power Nine, Episode 2:  The Phantom Meandeck, it was able to do this because there were very few decks (except for a few Fish/WTF builds that were running Annul for Turn 1 Trinisphere) that were prepared to handle enchantments, unless they bent over after their opponent played B2B (i.e. WTF).  However, now that it is known about people will expect to see it coming.  You'd be surprised how many things hose Oath (see my list further down).
3.  Yes (again, see my list).

Here is a list of things (again, off the top of my head) that are decent hosers of Oath:

Things that hose Oath itself
Naturalize or similar effects
[EDIT]I thought Oath was "Mill until you get a creature" instead of "Reveal until you find a creature and put the rest into your 'yard" .  I really should read cards.  Sorry![/EDIT]
etc.

Things that hose Forbidden Orchard
Any and every form of LD
Claws of Gix (Good idea, Gabe! )
[EDIT]Donate?[/EDIT]
Other effects that allow you to sack dorks
etc.

Things that hose the dorks it gets from Oath
Swords (everything but Witness)
Diabolic Edict (Everything but Witness and Yosei)
Ground Seal (Witness)
Moat (everything but Yosei, Akroma, and, of course, Witness)
Ghostly Prison/Propaganda (Everything but Witness...then again, who WOULDN'T pay 2 to swing with someone like Akroma?=/)
Fire/Ice (SotN)
etc.

As you can see, the list of Oath hosers is a bit lengthy and can fit into, literally, EVERY deck (except for a few combo decks in which case no one really cares about what your opponent has unless it's a Stifle or similar effect that will stop you from going off).  However, Turn 2 (or, even worse, TURN 1) Oath+Orchard is very hard to fight once active, so it just may turn out to be this year's "Goblin Welder".

Only time will tell for sure.

[VGB]

Here is a list of things (again, off the top of my head) that are decent hosers of Oath:

Things that hose Oath itself
Planar Void
Naturalize or similar effects
Withered Wretch
Samurai of the Pale Curtain (Nether Void on a stick)
Coffin Purge and similar effects
etc.

Decent attempt at a first post, but:

how does graveyard removal hose Oath?

There are a scant other things I would nitpick, but this is the most fallacious.  I stand by Ray of Revelation as a supreme Oath hoser, as well as the aforementioned Aura Fracture.

[Smmenen]

GY removal does almost NOTHING.  It does stop Ak engine and blessing, which is a stability effect, not there for survival.  Oath is more properly the new Masknaught.

If you want a secret: Platinum Angel maindeck is the card that in MY PERSONAL testing wrecked my deck the most.

That was the entire reason I have Control Magic in the SB and 3 Ground Seals to shore up the Welders.  

We hemmed and hawwed about whether to run MD Wish or removal or bounce to deal with Big PLatz but in the end, we decided that there would be very little platz unless people were running Shay's exact Slaver list.

[serracollector]

Thanx for the great idea steve.  I have to 100% agree with everything you think.  Yes it is a game definining card (such as welder), I will go as far to say that the combo of Orchard/Oath is going to be meta defining, as there are SO MANY different possibilities for the deck, and not all of them have to include "I drop fat I win".  For those of you interested in the lock down Oath that I came up with several weeks ago you can see it here, in the newbie forum because obviously Oath sucked the way I wanted to use it and the deck had no chance:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=19915

I have edited since my first post, so that the decklist and ideas are up to date.  Thank you.  Enjoy.  And if a mod reads this if you could put the post in the Vintage Open Forum and out of the newbie forum it would be much appreciated as I think with this post there will be many who would like to see the article.  Thanx.

Serracollector

[racetraitor]

If you do decide to run Mr. Teeth, however, I would reccomend splashing red for Mountains and Anger (or something).

Surely there are better creatures to Oath up than a hasted 2/2? This isn't Hermit Druid remember...

[DrLambda]

Something i tried really a while ago was Oath + Tog + Reckless Charge. But that was long before Orchard saw print. Maybe i should dig out the list again.

[Ric_Flair]

The Oath decks in Extended were really one deck.  Zvi's Turboland deck was a pet deck played by a great, great player.  It is not fair to say there was a multiplicity of Oath decks.  There was MaherOath and then stuff got rotated out and there was SuicideOath with Cognivore, then there was YMGs PT NO Oath deck and that was awful.  I am not sure how this bears on the subject of a multiplicity of Oath decks in Vintage, but if we are being honest there was never really multiple strategies using Oath that were viable at the same time.  

As a sidenote, I find it highly intriguing how different this iteration of Oath is from the Maher Oath deck.  One deck is the epitome of focus and redundancy.  The other is perhaps the most elegant, flexible Magic deck ever designed.  Oh and Maher Oath was a bitch and half to play.  A few pros I have talked to all agree on one thing: Maher Oath was the most complex deck to play ever.

[Machinus]

Welder has defined our format for almost a year now. Control Slaver was huge at the beginning of the year, but many people forgot about it and got distracted by the hype of Fish and other decks. 5/3, 7/10, and other Workshop decks have shown that Welder builds a solid foundation. Welder has been powerful and dangerous for a while now, and it has established its dominance.

Oath is a card that many older players will remember being "powerful" a long time ago. I use quotation marks because that word doesn't mean the same thing it used to mean. Power levels have exploded, the good cards have become better, and Type I is a completely different game than it was three years ago.

However, Oath does have a lot of strength in the current environment. I have thought about Oath often since slaver and fish began to dominate tournaments, but there was really not enough to push it through the control decks. Orchard is a bomb that dropped in our laps. It took Meandeck by surprise and gave us a free gift of a new archetype (much like Thirst for Knowledge did for Welder). Oath/Orchard is a viable strategy. More importantly, it is flexible, much like Welder decks. Oath fits nicely into a really solid control build, and can adapt to almost any metagame due to it's ability to splash colors and the openness of the slots in the maindeck (Steve says there are about 10 slots for his brainstorm build, but there are other ways to build the deck). Oath is a strategy that the environment will have to adjust and compensate for, but Oath is not going to get hated out or die off.

That being said, there are still problems with Oath. It is a very interactive strategy. You must wait a turn after you drop the Oath (much like Welder), but Welder is not symmetrical, and is really useful in multiples, whereas Oath can backfire (see the mirror), and the second Oath is useless (for the time being...I expect to see more Seals).

Welder fills so many roles that Oath is really incomparable to it. They are similar cards in that they demolish rules concerning mana costs, but Welder is more powerful, it is more versatile, and I think most importantly, it is more synergistic with the cards that are already the most powerful in Type I.

[kirdape3]

Oath's most effective role in a 'modern' form (post-Extended rotation) is to cheat casting costs on giant creatures.  In that role, it's as effective as Welder is - pay 1G, wait a turn, overmatch their creature with something disgustingly huge.

Welder's also a lot easier to kill.  1/1 dorks die to most everything under the sun.  Enchantments are much less liable to die to commonly played removal spells.

The downside is this: Doing something like comboing out is not terribly easy.  It's pretty vulnerable to all sorts of completely random hate, and most of them require Oathing up an Eternal Witness, fetching back Yawgmoth's Will in an insane orgy of violence and Tendrils.  There are quite a number of pitfalls in that idea, though, including randomly hitting a Witness before Will is found or other such sundry things.  Welder combos with Crucible and Mindslaver to lock you right out of the game, or by recurring dying lock components of Stax so you can't do anything at all, ever, or other disgusting things.

In short, Oath does one facet of Welder's utility.  Welder however gets all of his Ginsu-knife qualities by being quite literally the most vulnerable thing in Magic - a 1/1 creature with no protection.  You have to go far out of your way to successfully kill Oath of Druids, but offing Goblin Welder is something that you should expect to do at least once a game.

[Smmenen]

The Oath decks in Extended were really one deck.  Zvi's Turboland deck was a pet deck played by a great, great player.  It is not fair to say there was a multiplicity of Oath decks.  There was MaherOath and then stuff got rotated out and there was SuicideOath with Cognivore, then there was YMGs PT NO Oath deck and that was awful.  I am not sure how this bears on the subject of a multiplicity of Oath decks in Vintage, but if we are being honest there was never really multiple strategies using Oath that were viable at the same time.   There was alos Turboland - which only Zvi could play to success.

As a sidenote, I find it highly intriguing how different this iteration of Oath is from the Maher Oath deck.  One deck is the epitome of focus and redundancy.  The other is perhaps the most elegant, flexible Magic deck ever designed.  Oh and Maher Oath was a bitch and half to play.  A few pros I have talked to all agree on one thing: Maher Oath was the most complex deck to play ever.

Whoa boy there are quite a bit of specious comments in that post.  

1) To say that there werne't a multiplicity of Oath's is simply not true.  Kibler's Oath of Beasts deck was amazingly solid but the format was changing rapidly.  It could not lose to UG Madness but had issues with the emerging Tradepole deck.  There was also the Cognivore Oath deck and BUG Cognivoath that were quite popular in the PTQ's in my area during the same season (at the beginning of the season).

2) To say that Maher Oath is the most complex deck to play is a comment from someone who hasn't played Long.dec, or a variant thereof.

[JACO]

To say that Maher Oath is the most complex deck to play is a comment from someone who hasn't played Long.dec, or a variant thereof.

Steve, I don't think Ric was referring to the most complex deck to play ever. If you look at his post, he prefaces it by saying 'A few pros.'

A few pros I have talked to all agree on one thing: Maher Oath was the most complex deck to play ever.

Most 'pros' have never played competitive Type 1, so their experiences would be greatly different from yours and mine. Maher Oath was one of my favorite decks in the old Extended, and had tons of silver bullet bombs to tutor for, much like the old 'Keeper' builds (Moat, Abyss, etc.).

A highly flexible Oath deck like MaherOath is just too slow nowadays, in that the deck is forced to function differently with the printing of Forbidden Orchard. The ability to kill quickly is much better than the ability to dick around and fight to stay alive with cool cards like Light of Day.

[Ric_Flair]

To say that there werne't a multiplicity of Oath's is simply not true. Kibler's Oath of Beasts deck was amazingly solid but the format was changing rapidly. It could not lose to UG Madness but had issues with the emerging Tradepole deck. There was also the Cognivore Oath deck and BUG Cognivoath that were quite popular in the PTQ's in my area during the same season (at the beginning of the season).

Your right.  I misspoke.  I should have said there was never more than one SUCCESSFUL type of Oath deck in Extended at one time.  If you look at the Oath of Beasts deck it was never better than tier 2 and even Kibler only played it in one PT.  The format was in flux and even then Cognivore Oath was just better.  Also there really was never any difference between Oath decks running Cognivore.  Even Justin Gary's original build of the deck included B for cards like Pernicious Deed.  There may have been some U/G Oath decks running around at the time, but they were not good and they were really just a few cards off from Gary's build.  They didn't do anything different, they were just bad versions of Gary's deck, if they existed at all.

As for the difficulty, I think JACO stated best my reply.  Those guys have never played Long.  And when I asked (the last PT Boston) Long did not exist.  Either way, Maher Oath was a bitch to play.  Maybe Long is more complex, but it is not significantly more complex.  The other issue is that Long played badly can just win sometimes.  Maher Oath played badly cannot win with the same frequency.  There are just some outright lay down hands with Long.  Most hands aren't but there are few that are (were).

[Godder]

The best way to ensure that you win is to do just that. That sounds trite, but JP used to say it about Hulk Smash ('Tog), while Azhrei's line about making your opponent an irrelevance leads to the same conclusion. The less your opponent has to do with the game, the better.

[CCClark]

I think it stands a heck of a chance of taking one of the coveted top spots.  If anything, just for the sheer ability to have such an easy win condition in addition to running basics.    You have to love a deck that doesn't care too much about Back to basics.   It's too bad there is no fetch that can get a forest or an island.  

By the way, here's a card for sheer style points in a mirror.

Despotic Scepter.

[Juggernaut GO]

This deck will be tier 1 for a little while until people actually start to board against it.  The reason it did so well in VA is due to 2 reasons.

1: No one was really prepared for it except for the guy who ran main deck seal of cleansing

2:  The meta game in Richmond was so totally jenky, at least 60 % of the field was playing complete shit.  Seriously, who runs SHARED FATE?

I don't think you can start jumping to conclusions and saying that oath + mono blue + orchard = the greatest deck ever.  Did any of the oath players even get matched up against combo?  The 1 match I watched that oath played vs tps went to time.  A game with tps should never go to time unless someone is stalling.  The arcane labratory is a good choice for a SB but there are enough ways around it.  Oh, you cast random blue card in your main phase?  ok, I chain of vapor it at end of turn, oh you can't counter it because you already played your spell.  Btw, I win on my turn...

And the only reason goblin welder became the Shiznit was the mirrodin block was released.  You can't ever compare oath to welder because it will never gain in any power when new sets come out, your best possible kill is a 3 turn clock unless wizards creates a 10/10 flying haste creature that has no lame CIP ability and the likelyhood of that happening are slim to none, unless you bribe one of the R&D people with a hooker for the night since none of them probably has seen a real woman naked.

Btw, this is not a flame post, just a response to all the ass kissing I have seen in this thread.

[Covetous]

I find it interesting that I always hear people talking about how good TPS is and when someone indicates that such-and-such a deck is good, people say "Oh yeah, well TPS will do such and such and win" but I have yet to see a TPS deck win or even top-8 a tourney here in the US.  Am I just ill-informed or has that not happened yet?  There are always things that a deck can do to deal with hate, but that doesn't mean that it will work all of the time.  It basically does without saying that a fast combo deck which doesn't win with creatures can be expected to be about the worst matchup for a slow-ish control-ish deck that is most effective when the opponent plays creatures.  What it comes down to is that this deck CAN win FASTER than TPS (turn 1 oath/orchard, turn 3 kill), and the high amount of counters makes the deck relatively impervious to hate.  Plus, saying that you are going to find a single answer card in your deck to win before you die in 3 turns can be a sketchy proposition.  Before you trash this deck and the (impressive) results that it had SCG2, win a real tourney with TPS, beating Oath decks.  Trash talk without results is a little pointless in the face of winning 5 pieces of power at a tourney with 80+ people.

Sorry for the off-topic reply.  Back on topic:  Enchantment hate is uncommon currently, but I expect that to change.  In many cases, people play cheaper cards that kill only artifacts (e.g. oxidize) as opposed to more expensive cards that can also kill enchantments (e.g. naturalize)--now, that will probably swing the other way.  Decks like 4cC generally eschew disenchant/seal of cleansing/whatever for rack and ruin, which is generally more effective against problem matchups (workshop.dec).  Ironically, the switch from running R&R might allow people to run UWB control and be successful.  It remains to be seen.  Certainly the metagame will shift and decks will need to adapt to Oath--it's a powerhouse.  Can it be hated?  Of course.  Will hate make it disappear?  I doubt it.  Ironically, the rise of good Oath decks (as opposed to those before Orchard) might herald the rise of combo in North America (for the reasons alluded to earlier).  

The introduction of a powerful new card or deck into the metagame forces people to adapt, but in the end the metagame balances out.  When Crucible first became popular everyone was talking about how powerful it is and how unfair and blah blah blah.  Now, decks have adapted so that Crucible/Wasteland is not an auto-loss.  That eliminated some of the top contenders, but not all decks need to run crucible to win.  The same thing will happen with Oath--it will remain strong as a strategy but decks will rise to the top which can deal with it most effectively.  Give this commuity a month and collectively we will all come up with ways to SB (or MD tech) against Oath until it is merely one of the strong decks in the format as opposed to the deck to beat.

[Thug]

I find it interesting that I always hear people talking about how good TPS is and when someone indicates that such-and-such a deck is good, people say "Oh yeah, well TPS will do such and such and win" but I have yet to see a TPS deck win or even top-8 a tourney here in the US. Am I just ill-informed or has that not happened yet? There are always things that a deck can do to deal with hate, but that doesn't mean that it will work all of the time. It basically does without saying that a fast combo deck which doesn't win with creatures can be expected to be about the worst matchup for a slow-ish control-ish deck that is most effective when the opponent plays creatures. What it comes down to is that this deck CAN win FASTER than TPS (turn 1 oath/orchard, turn 3 kill), and the high amount of counters makes the deck relatively impervious to hate. Plus, saying that you are going to find a single answer card in your deck to win before you die in 3 turns can be a sketchy proposition. Before you trash this deck and the (impressive) results that it had SCG2, win a real tourney with TPS, beating Oath decks. Trash talk without results is a little pointless in the face of winning 5 pieces of power at a tourney with 80+ people.

I think you missed my point, I was in no way down talking Oath. I played Oath during my last tournament and think it is one of the strongest decks out there. The thing is you basicly have to fear no matchups other than fast-combo (and Stax with god-hands).

TPS is played very little, only in Italy is seems to be a popular deck and it performs very well there.

I wouldn't play TPS over Oath right now, becuase Oath does much better against other decks. But if everyone would switch to Oath TPS and other combo decks could be the perfect foil to this.

Saying that Oath is faster than TPS is pretty ridiculous, since Oath can't kill before turn 3 without Time Walk, and often goldfishes around turn 5/6. TPS is capable of a good amount of second turn kills and shold goldfish around the 4th turn easily. You have two answers to Oath: 2 Tendrils Of Agony.

I probably was a thinking a little bit more in the future then you were. But IMO thats one of the most important thing in Vintage.

If you would pick up this exact version of Oath right now youre bound to get smashed by people who have better sideboards for the mirror-match and people who came up with another foil to Oath. (If you play in a highly competitive metagame that is)

Koen

[ruken]

I had a well thought out, eloquent reply to this subject.  Then I hit the back button.

I don't think Oath is going to dominate much longer now that the shock value has worn off.  The deck did well, but it had the advantage of being a relatively strong deck in a completely unprepared field.  That being said, I think a few minor shifts in the meta will cripple Oath badly.

The way people tend to deal with illness is to attempt to treat the symptoms first (e.g. suppress the cough) before attacking the actual illness (emphesyma), and then its root source (smoking).  Once people get it into their heads that the best way to deal with Oath is NOT to wait until the creature hits the table, Oath will weaken.  I'm not advocating that it will drop from the list entirely, and I know that the deck will get stronger over time; the mono-blue w/green builds that are being bandied about right now are, well, monochromatic in their psychology as well, and I know advances will be made.  Still, once Oath's weaknesses are exposed and denounced, it will get kicked down a tier or two.

Kevin

[absolute]

I had a well thought out, eloquent reply to this subject.  Then I hit the back button.

I don't think Oath is going to dominate much longer now that the shock value has worn off.  The deck did well, but it had the advantage of being a relatively strong deck in a completely unprepared field.  That being said, I think a few minor shifts in the meta will cripple Oath badly.

The way people tend to deal with illness is to attempt to treat the symptoms first (e.g. suppress the cough) before attacking the actual illness (emphesyma), and then its root source (smoking).  Once people get it into their heads that the best way to deal with Oath is NOT to wait until the creature hits the table, Oath will weaken.  I'm not advocating that it will drop from the list entirely, and I know that the deck will get stronger over time; the mono-blue w/green builds that are being bandied about right now are, well, monochromatic in their psychology as well, and I know advances will be made.  Still, once Oath's weaknesses are exposed and denounced, it will get kicked down a tier or two.

Kevin

This is a viable point, and may be what turns out to be true, but is there really an end all answer to an oath on the board? If a deck directs an answer at oath, it is like when a player directs answers at welder, forgetting the deck can do as much without the welder. Oath isn't as strong as anything with workshops, but in all reality if you answer oath with 4 of's in the sideboard, they are most likely going to be dead in other matchups, and may not be usefull at all. If an oath resolves, and your answer was suppose to prevent that you have no way to deal with the creature that comes up, and if you have an answer to one of the creatures, the oath is still there. The point is that the answer has to come at the PRECISE moment you need it, and that isn't always going to happen, and your answer will not always resolve, as oath has a substantial amount of counter back-up.

The deck may die out with time, but an end all anwer to oath will not likely happen, as it needs to direct itself at the oath, orchards, and creatures. The small answers don't really seem enough to kill the deck off, and make it less deadly, but do level the playing field to a less suprised reaction at getting smacked for 18 two turns after it resolves.

[Mr. Channel-Fireball]

I stand by the notion that I'm always about 1 year ahead of the metagame.

First this:

My attempt at an affordable U/G
http://www.cardshark.com/content/view_article.asp?article_id=1919

Then:
http://www.cardshark.com/content/view_article.asp?article_id=998

The deck would need reworking with Champions new land, but I'd like to include the black for the Deeds...although the emergence of Crucible probably makes that hard.

Cool to see Oath making a comeback. Neat card in Orchard. Makes me wonder if Living Wish is good yet.  

Let's just hope this deck doesn't get popular  

  http://www.cardshark.com/content/view_article.asp?article_id=142