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Author Topic: Cards in the set that need altering  (Read 5997 times)
Matt
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« on: October 31, 2004, 07:48:24 pm »

All mods, feel free to edit this as necessary. Everyone else, feel free to make suggestions for fixing the problem cards, but don't request to add a card to the 'problem list' unless you've playtested the set.


CHANGES FOR LIMITED

-Fungal Swarm: Wayyyy too good. Suggested to be 1/1 and 2G fixed[/color]

-War Wolf: apparantly too good. I suggest making it "can't be blocked by flying creatures" fixed[/color]

-Plasma Burst isn't good enough to be rare - it's basically Blaze in limited, and they recently made Fireball an uncommon.

-Putrid Rain is insane. Like FTK insane. Same with Scorching Rain. They need to be 3RR/3BB or else lower the effect drastically. I suggest 2BB for stone rain+discard a card, and 2RR for stone rain+1 damage (which still kills a huge number of things). gone from the set[/color]

-Should Cursed Golem be common? (it currently is)

-black has too many guys that ask you to have four of them (phyrexian soldier etc). Undying Warrior needs to be cut for something beefy.

-Some of the green guys that aren't should totally be beasts

-Eyes of the Angels is friggin' scary. Next to impossible to get rid of at all since it keeps coming back like Rancor, it also virtually ensures the critters is on will never be blocked, and produces potentially masive lifeswings. Now I'm all for a good creature enchantment for a change, but I feel that we should at the very least make it so that the Eyes can only be brought back to your hand during your upkeep, this making the decision slightly harder and using up the mana on your turn rather than on the end of your opponent's one.

-Statesman's Cloak is wayyyy undercosted, especially since there aren't many high powered creatures in the set to begin with.

-Ephemeral Insights is over-costed. I think there wouldn't be any problem at all if it had a mana cost of XUU.

CHANGES FOR CONSTRUCTED

-Soul Search: undercosted probably

-Terrifying apparition: weak as hell


THEMATIC CHANGES
Bram: - Desecrate and Presence of the Necromancer interact with zombies on some level. Should we save these up?
Matt: We could. Desecrate was originally part of a cycle with Domesticate, Recruit, and Enlighten, but I think if you didn't know that you might not see it. The Necromancer card kind of overlaps with a white card I liked (Deathbed Conversion). We don't need both, and we've plenty of cool black bomb rares.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2005, 11:40:34 pm by Matt » Logged

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Matt
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« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2004, 09:07:46 pm »

Many-Tentacled Thing really wants some kind of Unholy Strength effect in black commons. It doesn't have to be good, just anything that raises its power.

Bewildering Visions doesn't do much of anything. It needs to probably double in strength.

The entire "plane" cycle is undercosted, but especially the black and red ones, which need to be about 3B and 3R.

Mystic Plane should just say "scry 2".

Last Onean is only indestructable if you control another guy. The patch just says its always indestructible.

Evicohive is so ugly. Kill this one!

We have too many mechanics. I think we should cut all fading cards, as well as Obscuring Mist (the only morph card). fixed[/color]

Seedling of Gaea has no color requirement to it. This is a problem. We should either make it "all forests" or "as long as you control a forest". Both of these play up the treefolk aspect of it.

Undergrowth Spirit: isn't this Pentavus on crack? Currently under review[/color]

Avlis looks entirely unfair. Also, his name is weird, considering he has nothing to do with enchantments.

Argivian Researcher's CIP should be optional.

Martial Dragoon is a horrible rare.

Does anyone think Ingenuity should just say "you may put an artifact into play"? fixed[/color]
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 11:48:06 am by Matt » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2004, 04:29:17 am »

Quote
Many-Tentacled Thing really wants some kind of Unholy Strength effect in black commons.

We aldready do - Symbiont. It's not just creature kill, you know.

Quote
Last Onean is only indestructable if you control another guy. The patch just says its always indestructible.

Yeah, I know. I figured that's what we wanted when we talked about it. I kind of overlooked the possibility of 'Indestructable If..'. I'll update it once we have some more definitive changes.

Quote
We have too many mechanics. I think we should cut all fading cards, as well as Obscuring Mist (the only morph card).

hear hear! Death to fading (and 1 morph card is just silly).

Quote
Undergrowth Spirit: isn't this Pentavus on crack?

Not necessarily. Say you compate Undergrowth Spirit for 5GG to Pentavus (obv. for 7). There's pros and cons that even it out, I think.
PROS:
- it's more flexible (more or less tokens at will)
- there's not cost for removing or adding the tokens (big pro...)
- the tokens can be moved onto (and from) any creature.
CONS:
- it requires a heavy dedication to green
- the tokens don't fly
- neither the thing itself nor the tokens are artifacts, which means that this thing can't be tinkered into play, and the tokens can't be weldered (note how this was the only real use for Pentavus anyway).
I think it's probably OK is as.

Quote
Argivian Researcher's CIP should be optional.

I dunno. For a 2/2 for WW (solid) that essentially replaces itself, I feel it should have the drawback of exposing your gameplan to the opponent all the time.

Quote
Martial Dragoon is a horrible rare.

Yes. This needs to be uncommon, but not common. It can still be a wicked annoying combo card with Temporal Apprentice, basically denying your opponent attack phases from turn 3 onwards (and his first one as well...). There should not be too many of these floating around in the common slots.

Quote
Does anyone think Ingenuity should just say "you may put an artifact into play"?

Nooooooo! Way too good. At least give us half a chance :-/ This would be like the perfect card to pitch to a TFK that way. Hello free uncouterable Memory Jars and Mindslavers! Who needs Welders?

for the reocrd - those statements by you I didn't comment on, I agree with.
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« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2004, 05:04:23 am »

Quote
Undergrowth Spirit con: Instant kill with Pandemonium

Kinda like Saproling Burst you mean, which is an enchantment as well, meaning it's easier to get both in play by simply Replenishing them? Not good enough an argument, IMHO.
Quote
Infinite life with Soul Warden.

OK, so this is probably a good enough argument (although many more infi life combos with Sould Warden exist, ofcourse, and none ever see competitive play). I did say the free moving about was a big bonus, ofcourse :-)  But sure, I can see your point. Let's tack 1 on it as an activation cost for at least one of the abilities (or both if you're into the whole symmetry thing) and we should be fine.
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« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2004, 08:48:22 am »

Saproling Burst still theoretically cares how much life your opponent has. Undergrowth Spirit just requires two +1/+1 counters to "go infinite." That combo can kill people with any amount of life unless they have Sphere of Duty or Urza's Armor in play, in which case, you just nuke all of their creatures.
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« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2004, 09:12:26 am »

Quote
That combo can kill people with any amount of life unless they have Sphere of Duty or Urza's Armor in play

...or unless they have creature removal, ofcourse. Need I remind you that Salvager is a 2 card, 1 creature infinite mana combo that's virtually never played (outside my attempts at breaking it in 1.5 ;-)?

Sure, this is good for casual. Yes, it may spawn a weakish combo build in Vintage. The point is: it's not broken in Limited for lack of stuff to combo it with, and I can't see it being broken in Standard (or our Block for that matter, either). But like I said: let's be safe and tack on a small activation cost that prevents 'infinitism'.
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Jacob Orlove
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« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2004, 02:16:36 pm »

Actually, it IS broken in limited, just because it really is phenomenally good. The worst case scenario is that they kill it right away, in which case you just got a bunch of tokens and/or pumped a bunch of your guys. If they can't kill it, then you simply dominate the board, making tokens on their EOT, attacking and saccing with damage on the stack, making new tokens to block, etc, etc.

I think it's too strong for limited because it's so good even at cheaper casting costs, and it gets absurd if you can ever play it for more than 6.

But anyway, adding 1 to the cost of each ability should fix it.
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2004, 01:16:07 am »

We could. Desecrate was originally part of a cycle with Domesticate, Recruit, and Enlighten, but I think if you didn't know that you might not see it.

The Necromancer card kind of overlaps with a white card I liked (Deathbed Conversion). We don't need both, and we've plenty of cool black bomb rares.
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« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2004, 05:32:18 pm »

Regarding Fungal Swarm - Would adding 1 mana to its activation cost help here? I assume the problem is that you can make a quick 7/7. Putting all of your mana and all of your cards into one fattie would be even riskier. Note that one of the balances of the card was the GG casting cost. If it went to 3cc it should be 1GG. I would have thought that a 2/2 for 1GG with an activation cost of 1 and a card is preferable to a 1/1 for 2G. Paying 3 cards and 3 mana for a 3/3 is pretty bad.
Another alternative would be making the +1/+1 until end of turn. You would have a weaker Wild Mongrel but that is still better than making a creature that has far too low base stats. The aim of the creature was to have a combat beastie.
Yet another option is allowing only one activation per turn, you could still attack with a 4/4 on turn 3 but only after having invested 3 cards in it.
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« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2004, 05:35:37 pm »

I think 1GG for a 2/2 with 1 to activate would preseve a lot of the strengths of the card without being so ridiculously degenerate.

War Wolf: I like Matt's fix.
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« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2004, 06:01:40 pm »

Ok War Wolf is offically changed in the Master List to the following:

War Wolf
{G}
Creature -- Wolf
1/1
{T}: Until end of turn, target creature gets +1/+0 and can't be blocked by walls or creatures with flying.
The feral beasts crested the hill, fel riders sitting high in the saddle.  Swift as arrows, they stormed the valley below.

Next on the agenda: Fungal Swarm. We have suggestions for a 1/1 for {2}{G} or a 2/2 for {1}{G}{G} with an activation cost of {1}. Are there any further options you want, or should we go ahead and vote on this?
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2004, 02:28:22 pm »

It probably needs an activation cost. Drafting these in limited would be insane otherwise. I change my vote to 1GG for 2/2 with 1 activation.
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« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2005, 09:34:28 am »

Hey guys. Surprise visit! Cool
Regarding Undergrowth Elemental, as I'm the one who created it. The theme/idea was the elemental entering the forest, and bringing all the fungus and various undergrowth in it alive, which then becomes some sort of meta-creature, rearranging itself into various forms at will (see, I'm a blue kind of guy, even my green cards are half blue Wink) -- at one moment you might be facing a single huge fungus-beast, the next, it might be an army of saprolings. However, once the elemental leaves, the whole thing collapses. Thus, I'm opposed to adding any activation costs, as it goes against the core concept of the card.
Other ways to weaken it, in decreasing order of desirability:
- Just keep tacking G onto the mana cost until you think it's balanced. As you can't effectively use it by means other than casting it, this is probably the simplest, easiest, and nicest solution.
- Make it only work with green creatures.
- When it leaves play, all saprolings and +1/+1 counters get sacrificed/removed. This is consistent with the whole 'it only lasts while the elemental is around' thing.
- Make the abilities only playable as sorceries. I rather dislike this solution, but it's still better than activation costs (but doesn't counter the combo aspect).
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« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2005, 02:25:51 pm »

Okay, Ingenuity is officially changed to the above wording.

Next on the list: Fungal Swarm is overpowered. For reference:

Fungal Swarm
{G}{G}
Creature -- Fungus
2/2
Remove a card in your hand from the game: Put a spore counter on Fungal Swarm.
Cards named Fungal Swarm have +1/+1 for each spore counter on Fungal Swarm.

Ways to fit it:
1. 1GG or 2G for a 1/1. This is still strong.
2. Tack on a mana payment to the activated ability.
3. Four mana or more for a 2/2 (3G or 2GG). This is still powerful but at least it gives opponents an opportunity to get some damage in before it hits, and also they can keep it away with land destruction.
4. some combination of the above
5. (your suggestion here)
« Last Edit: July 07, 2005, 02:32:33 pm by Matt » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2005, 11:41:12 am »

Ok screw it, that's the wording now:

Fungal Swarm
1GG
Creature -- Fungus
2/2
G, Remove a card in your hand from the game: Put a spore counter on Fungal Swarm.
Cards named Fungal Swarm have +1/+1 for each spore counter on Fungal Swarm.

Next up:

Undergrowth Spirit
{X}{G}{G}
Creature -- Fungus Elemental
0/0
Undergrowth Spirit comes into play with X +1/+1 counters on it.
Remove a +1/+1 counter from a creature you control: Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token into play.
Sacrifice a Saproling: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.

How to fix this? The card's creator doesn't seem to want to mess with the abilities but the abilities are what's so strong.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2005, 11:47:27 am by Matt » Logged

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« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2005, 12:35:28 pm »

Do this to it:

Undergrowth Spirit
XGGG
Creature- Fungus Elemental
0/0
Undergrowth Elemental comes into play with X +1/+1 counters on it.
Remove a +1/+1 counter fomUndergrowth Elemental: Put a 1/1 green saproling creature token into play.
Sacrifice a saproling: Put a +1/+1 on Undergowth Spirit.
When Undergowth Spirit leaves play, sacrifice all saprolings you control.

I know that I messed with the abilities, but the card seems more flavorful this way anyways. Is it too weak this way?
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« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2005, 11:41:37 pm »

Free token-making is the problem. I don't see how this is going to ever be used as long as that's on there - we would have to price this thing out of playability.
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2005, 02:02:04 am »

So how about making one or both abilities sorcery speed? That would clear up most problems.
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Matt
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2005, 02:13:10 am »

Yeah but then it's pretty weak. What's wrong with just tacking on a mana cost to the token-making ability? An adjustable Pentavus seems like a pretty neat card on its own without also being godly in limited and a combo card in constructed.
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« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2005, 09:25:54 pm »

This should be a lot fairer:

Undergrowth Spirit
{X}{G}{G}
Creature -- Fungus Elemental
0/0
Undergrowth Spirit comes into play with X +1/+1 counters on it.
 {G}, Remove a +1/+1 counter from a creature you control: Put a 1/1 green Saproling creature token into play.
Sacrifice a Saproling: Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature.

I don't think a bigger fix is necessary.
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« Reply #20 on: September 02, 2005, 10:08:30 am »

Could we change the flavor text on War Wolf to "The beasts crested the hill, fel riders high in the saddle, and stormed the valley below."  The current flavor text is way overwritten.

Aslo, could we change the flavor text of Moritorium to "These are troubleing times when a person's life is seen only as a means to power."  I think the pronoun "one" makes the difference between who's seeking power and who's life is being sacrificed confusing.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 02:17:03 pm by Rando » Logged

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