when do proxies make things WORSE?

[jpmeyer]

In general, the opinion is that proxies help to grow Type 1 scenes or allow them to start where there weren't any previously.  However, I hear every once and a while the random comment from someone where they say that the proxy tournies do worse than the proxy-less ones and somesuch.  How many people have had this type of experience and why was it the case?  I'm having trouble wrapping my head around why this would ever happen.

[Jacob Orlove]

The only reason I can think of is that those tournaments wouldn't be sanctioned.

[VGB]

When you have an entry barrier such as the price/availability of cards, you have a certain "weeding out" factor of non-T1 afficionados.

If cost and availability of cards are not an issue, then what other entry barriers are there, other than simply lacking the desire to play T1?

Even sanctioned T1 tournaments don't require pro-tour points or a particular strata of vintage rating in order to participate.  That is what is probably meant by "proxy tournies do worse than the proxy-less ones", although the gist of this comment is unclear:  do they do worse in terms of results skew, or overall atmosphere?

[Bram]

Two additional reasons:

A. Some good, experienced players will choose not to attend out of spite ('Hey man, I forked our 4K for this shit. So should you.')

B. There will likely be more people playing. Initially, many of the new attendees will be random scrubs. This has two effects:
1. some good players will initially choose not to attend these events because they (rightfully) fear their well-tuned and SB'ed builds might randomly die to Secret Force w/Ancestral.
2. a high influx of randoms will fuck up the metagame. A 70% random field doesn't make for stable results. Adding power to crap doesn't improve this.

It is important to understand that (B) is only a temporary thing, and as such this negative extermal effect of allowing proxies will only last until:
- the talented scrubs start choosing decent builds and playing them well, and
- the real losers get tired of having their arses kicked in spite of their powered builds and stop participating.

(A) is likely temporary as well, since you can really only quit the game out of spite once. Plus I suspect that when (B) stabilizes, many would come back. This also holds true for those who quit under (1).

I predict a transition along the lines of:
1. more players (many new, some old ones quit)
2. worse metagame
3. player numbers decrease slightly while new players learn from experience
4. better metagame
5. some of those whi initially quit will come back
6. eventually: overall increase in player pool as well as metagame / player quality.

Like all transitions, it requires investment. Things will get worse before they become better. Also, it requires careful direction in the form of TO's who know what they're doing and don't quit supporting proxied tournaments at the first sign of trouble, and a good online community to improve n00b skillz. Smmenen's articles go a long way in this*.

[edit] *= as does the TMD community, but this goes without saying.

[Evilkin]

In general I believe that there is a much higher level of skill in sanctioned tournaments.  Most Vintage players that go out of their way to buy power cards are hard-core into the format.  These players generally visit web sites such as these to get the latest tech or new deck idea.  If given the choice, I'm sure most of these players would prefer all their tournaments to be sanctioned.

However, in a proxied metagame you get a lot of Type 2 or new players in general (Hi, this is my first type 1 tourney) playing with really obscure or bastardized versions of tier one decks.  Such as using 5 proxies for power, but still lacking dual lands, mana drains, etc.  Plus in a lot of cases not knowing how to actually play the deck properly.

In areas where there is a real consistant hard-core showing of Vintage players I can see sanctioned tournaments doing better.  But in areas where a lot of players don't take T1 seriously, there can be a nice boost in attendance by allowing them.

[Toad]

We have both in France and I have attended to both kind of events. We almost always have the same players in Top8 at these tourneys. Someone who plays an unpowered and well tweaked Red Green deck (for example) will always have better results in a tourney with his Red Green deck than with the 4CC he chose to take to a proxi tourney even if he sucks with it.

[Tristal]

Not being sanctioned is a huge, huge barrier for a lot of local T1 players here.  Unless first prize is a mox, we'd rather play for rating points and pride than play with proxies in our decks.

Honestly though, it's stuff like 'being able to build decks that work with 5 proxies' that make me not want to play in 5-p events.  Tons and tons of Fish and GAT players make baby Jesus cry.  5-proxy is not a format.

[Moxlotus]

Not being sanctioned is a huge, huge barrier for a lot of local T1 players here.  Unless first prize is a mox, we'd rather play for rating points and pride than play with proxies in our decks.

Honestly though, it's stuff like 'being able to build decks that work with 5 proxies' that make me not want to play in 5-p events.  Tons and tons of Fish and GAT players make baby Jesus cry.  5-proxy is not a format.

People actually care about Vintage rating?

[freakish777]

Additionally, you will get the players that realize that T1 isn't really their thing in the first place, but might be willing to try it provided it wasn't a proxy tournament.

In my experience, these are the same players that have some but not all of the misconceptions about the format.  They tend to think that 5 proxies will induce a "the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer" outcome, as they think that their deck will become that much more inferior because everyone else can now proxy 4 drains and LoA because they already have P9.  In a way they would be correct (considering most I've heard who claim this run decks like WW, sligh, etc), but only if everyone else already had power, and certainly there are lists decks showing up to these tournaments that aren't entirely powered.

As an aside, Belcher seems like it would be extremely easy to build at a 10 proxy tournament.

[jazzykat]

I have never seen proxies ruin anything. Proxies level the field in terms of allowing people to have a chance at the fully powered guys. If I ever make it to a tournament in Europe I am probably going to play fully powered combo since they don't allow proxies. That way I can demolish all of the weak players/decks and make my way quickly to the quality tier.

[Bram]

I have never seen proxies ruin anything.

That's likely because you haven't witnessed a full transition. My argument was that in a while, when it's settled in and becomes common, things will be better. Over here, noone has ever played in a proxy tournament. Take my word for it that large-scale switching will initially produce some 'hickups'.

[Zherbus]

That's likely because you haven't witnessed a full transition.

I've personally witnessed a few with notable success. In europe, there will be some german proxy events that I really want to keep my eye on. That will really be a good litmus test for euro's.

[Bram]

If events unfold occording to my ominous and diabolic plan (and they usually do), Eindhoven will have a 50+ players proxy tourney with power prize support every two months or so, starting either December or early 2005. More stat madness for you!

[Zherbus]

Except for that if it goes over 50, I have to hand you over to Dr. Sylvan!

[jazzykat]

I have never seen proxies ruin anything.

That's likely because you haven't witnessed a full transition. My argument was that in a while, when it's settled in and becomes common, things will be better. Over here, noone has ever played in a proxy tournament. Take my word for it that large-scale switching will initially produce some 'hickups'.

I can't argue either way about transitions I started playing competively too late in the NE to ever see one.

The only non proxy events I attended were minute in nature and died because prize support was weak and turn out was pathetic.

[Royal Ass.]

I am actively lobbying my TO here in the midwest to switch over to proxy tournaments.  A year or two ago we used to have 20+ people at the type one tournaments, now its the same 8 people every time because all the non-powered people got pushed out.  Had there been proxies back then, I bet a lot of them would still be playing.

It's funny, people do kind of care about DCI Ratings out here even though they realize they are worthless.  However, I think people at the store I play at are realizing that proxies need to happen soon or there will be noone to play.  I have friends who have full sets of power, playsets of drains, bazaars, workshops and masks who want to see proxy tournaments for that reason.

I talked with my TO last weekend and gave him a copy of the article Steven wrote for Star City on how to run a good type one tournament.  Things should be changing, hopefully.  Any "negative" results from having proxies will surely be overshadowed by the overwhelming positive results.

[illuzion]

How many people have had this type of experience and why was it the case?

The only local store here in Spokane used to have sanctioned vintage tournaments.  When they went to proxy, the tournaments were no more.  I was a contributer, as I did not attend any of these.

Why did I not go to the proxy tourneys?  I actually like jockeying for rating. I know the rating is worthless, but trying to get my vintage up to #1 in Washington gives me something to do, since the local (would-be) meta is fairly weak beyond a small pool of players and I don't really get much of the challenge of playing like I used to down in Newark, CA (C&Js).  So the answer is basically, I like racking up useless rating points for the hell of it.