TPS the evolution

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

Over the past 3 or so weeks Oath decks and Workshop decks (but especially oath) have been running over the format and have been the big topic of discussion.  I feel that with the proper tunage and testing, TPS can rise above  these two seemingly dominant decks and pick up some much needed victories.  The deck has a solid mana base and enough disruption that it can drop the bombs necessary to win.  So here's the list:

land
4-Forbidden Orchard
3-Polluted Delta
3-Island
2-Swamp
1-Tolarian Academy

Other mana sources
5-moxen
1-Black lotus
1-Lotus Petal
1-Sol Ring
1-Mana Vault
1-Mana Crypt
1-Chrome Mox
4-Dark Ritual

Tutors
1-Demonic Tutor
1-Vampiric Tutor
1-Mystical Tutor
1-Tinker
1-Cunning Wish

Draw
1-Ancestal Recall
4-Brainstorm

The BOmbs
1-Mind's Desire
1-Wheel of Fortune
1-Windfall
1-Timetwister
1-Time Spiral
1-Memory Jar
1-Time Walk
1-Necropotence
1-Yawgmoth's Bargain
1-Yawgmoth's Will

Disruption/Bounce
4-Duress
4-Force of Will
1-Rebuild
1-Hurkyl's Recall

Kill
2-Tendrils of Agony

Sideboard
1-Balance
2-Seal of Clensing
2-Echoing Truth
2-Back to Basics
3-Hydroblast
1-Fact or Fiction
1-Brain Freeze
1-Skeletal Scrying
1-Darksteel Collosus
1-Hurkyl's Recall

Card explanations and anaylsis
Forbidden Orchard- A questionable choice im sure but if Oath is to be the next dominant deck, then Orchards on the other side of the table are the way to go.  They also make the main board Wheel of Fortune castable and  allows for the white splash in the sideboard.  The damage is something not to worry about when Your winning between turns 3-4.

Basic lands- non-wasteable fetch land targets.  They have done nothing but good things for me and they have become almost an auto include in any TPS deck.

Fetches-See Basic lands

Tolarian Academy-No explaniation required

Lotus, moxes, ancestral,ect...-obvious no need for explanation EXCEPT for Time Walk.  In a deck that tends to slowplay somewhat untill You can defend your threats, an untap all your lands, draw a crad is the way to go and I have never wished that I had Frantic Search in its place.

Sol Ring, Crypt, Vault-no explaniatin required.

Dark Ritual-The heart and soul of the deck.  It is the primary means of upping storm along with the 0 and 1  drop artifacts.

Demonic/vampiric/mystical/Tinker-no explaniation needed, they get cards and tinker grabs the Memory Jar.
Cunning Wish-Some love it in this deck others hate it.  I feel it adds versitility to the deck.  My worst fear is some random deck going land, lotus, cranial extraction for tendrils-GG.  With the Cunning Wish you have access to Brainfreeze, which not only can win a game, but can also cripple an opponent with no answer to it ie:twister, spiral, blessing.  It also gives You access to broken draw spells like Fact or Fiction and Skeletal Scrying, as well as the extra bounce in echoing truth and Hurkyl's recall.

Brainstorm-Deck manipulatin and draw-has had enough said about it already.
Ancestral Recall-No explaniation needed.

Yawgmoth's Will- Best card in the Game
Yawgmoth's Bargain/Necro-win the game 98% of the time when it hits.
Wheel of Fortune/Windfall-The primary Draw 7's.  I have almost always played at least one of them a game and theres nothing better than going windfall-bunch of spells-wheel-win.
Timetwister-Draws 7 Cards Same as the others
Time Spiral-Same as twister except fo twice the cost, but it untaps the lands and often sets you up for the win eight after it is cast.
Memory Jar-your primary Tinker target that draws 7 cards and can also be strategiacally cast to screw up decks like food chain goblins.
Mind's Desire-the bomb of bombs sometimes even doing it for 4 or 5 can be devistating but is most commonly used when You have alot of spells and no tendrils.

Hurkyl's recall/Rebuild-Bounce artifacts and incease your storm count.  At the Virginia SCG P9 tourny I won a game when he had 3 smokestscks a chalice at 1 and a trinisphere on the board and I cast an end of turn Rebuild.  Rebuild also cycles if You just Mystical/Vamped and have no draw spell.

Druess/force-disruption and sets up and protects your bombs

Side board anaylsis

balance-one of the most broken cards ever printed-comes in against aggro, and oath
Seal of Clensing-the debate between these and disenchant rages on in my head b/c disenchant is wishable.  I feel that it is the best choice Because once it hits its there until you decide to use it.
Echoing truth/hurkyl's recall-extra bounce-come in against workshop, slaver, and any other artifact deck.  Echoing truth comes in against aggro decks and oath.
Brainfreeze, Fact or Fiction, and Skeletal Scrying-already been discussed.
Darksteel Colossus-People scoop when it hits the field.  Comes in against Fish, Food chain, The mirror, and other combo decks, and oath.
Back to basics-Beats workshop, fish, and other decks that rely on non basic lands.
Hydroblast-Has been discussed many times before.  comes in against Sligh, Slaver, and Fish with red in it.

Cards that didn't make the cut
Lions eye Diamond-Ive been told to run it but I dislike it and have never found myself in a situation where I wish ive had it.
Mox Diamond-In a deck with only 13 lands, its not worth it.
Chain of Vapor-chalice for 1...and what your usually bouncing is artifacts, it kinda hurts.

Side board
Stifle-tried it but could never get to it when I needed it.  could go in depending on your meta.
Swords to plowshares-another solid meta choice.
misdirection-Not really worth the sb spot in my opinion.

I whole heartidly feel that this deck has the tools to be in the top three in the format with the proper testing and tuning.  The primary threarts to this deck is workshop and decks that run alot of counters, and right now that deck is oath.  

Questions, comments, critique, feel free to speak your mind.[/b]

[Jacob Orlove]

Moved to newbie.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

I apologize if im breaking a rule here but i got distracted and sent it accidentally w/o finishing. Heres the Match by match analysis and some side board strategy:

Fish- one of the easier matchups that TPS will encounter, the only thing that tey have that can screw you over is null rod, and stifle in some cases to stop your storm.  However both of these things can be remied by duress and bounce for the null rods.  Factories can also be an issue in the first game but post sideboard there not an issue.  You would sideboard -1 chome mox, -1 cunning wish, -1 time walk, -1 brainstorm, -1 mana crypt, -1 Time Spiral-+1 balance +2 seal of clensing, +1 DSC, +2 hydroblast

Workshop dec.- Can be, If not properly played the hardest matchup You will have to play.  First turn trinisphere, the decks biggest weapon, CAN be crippling but dosent have to be.  It means that if there is no welder already on the field, they have to wait at least 2 more turns to get one out, and also it will probably take them at least that long to drop a juggernaught or other big thing.  This gives you time to regroup, and REBUILD.  It is sometimes strategic to aggressively mulligain into a rebuild/Hurkyl's just so you can avoid just such a problem.  The other nemisis to TPS is chalice for 0 and 1.  They slow you down to a dismally slow pace and once again the only answer is bounce or duress them before they happen.  Unfortunately against workshop, alot relies on the roll.  Side board: -1 chrome mox, - 1 time spiral, -1 brainstorm, -1 time walk, -1 windfall.  In: +2 B2B, +2 Seal of Clensing, +1 hurkyl's recall

Control Slaver-another cahlllenging matchup becaue it paacks many of the same weapons as workshop but with counters and mindslaver.  Even though You are packing Duress and your own counters, if You plan on going off but have no backup or protection, this is one of those decks that will screw you with a mana drain, so you always need to think twice.  Even though mindslaver may not seem like a big deal, If you have a Necro or Bargain on the board or comming up the game is over.  In the first game you really need to slowplay and think long and hard before each move.  Sideboard: -1 chrome mox, -1 tendrils, -1 brainstorm, -1 rebuild, -1 Mana crypt.  +2 Echoing truth, + 2 hydroblast, +1 seal of clensing.

Food Chain Goblins-Another really easy matchup especially post sideboard.  The only thing that you need to fear here is Pyrostatic Pillar which makes it near impossible to win if it resolves.  Try and keep them from resolving their big goblins (warchief, ringleader, piledriver, and lackey) and stay in control.  also, unless they just did the whole rearrange their deck thing to go off, LET FOOD CHAIN RESOLVE.  it is near useless unless their going off.  Sideboard: -4 duress, -1 Hurkyl's recall, -1 Rebuild, -1 brainstorm, -1 time spiral, - 1 chrome mox.  In: +1 balance, +2 Echoing truth, +3 Hydroblast, +1 DSC, +2 Seal of Clensing.

Dragon-Even though dragon can go off very fast, TPS is usually faster.  Counter their reanimate spells and duress them away.  unfortunately if they go off there is not much to do, but dont give them an edge.  Sideboard: -1 chrome mox, -1 Windfall, -1 wheel of fortune, -1 Hurkyl's recall, -1 Rebuild.  In: +2 seal of clensing, + 2 back to basics, +1 DSC

4CC-Quite possibly your most challenging matchup due to the counters and the ability to mind twist your hand.  When you duress them It dosent matter if they have a hand full of counters, if they have mind twist, take it.  Other then that, their crucible does nothing because of your basic lands, unless they have a strip mine, which kills any deck.  Otherwise, duress early and as often as possible, and don't get discouraged if Your at 8 and the have an exalted swinging away.  you can still go off and if not win, buy some time.  And In my experience, brainfreeze is devestating against them.  Sideboard: -1 chrome mox, -1 mana crypt, 1- time spiral, -1 tendrils, -1 brainstorm, -1 hurkyl's recall.  In: +2 Echoing truth, +2 B2B, +1 DSC, +1 Brainfreeze

Oath of Druids-Mean deck angel is, I have to say, a work of brilliance and hardcore playtesting.  Everytime I watched it in virginia I was impressed.  I also had the pleasure of playing Joe Bushman, a meandecker and although both games were close, his counters won it.  After this crushing blow that knoked me out of T8 contention, I began to think of cards that could beat oath.  The first were seals and other enchantment hate. as well as meddling mage.  But both of those easily succomb to counters so I needed to think more. I then thought of sideboarding 4 orchards but then thought, why not main them.  They negate their Orchards and prevent them from letting oath Trigger.  Also, they cant be countered and oath only runs 2-3 strip lands and no crucibel.  However in the sideboard, they have both arcane lab and platnum angel which can spell a problem if either resolve, but the lab wins them the game for them if you cant get rid  of it.  My only advice in the first game is not to scopp until the last damage is dealt and try your hardest.  the post sideboard is much easier.   Side board: -1 chrome mox, 1-hurkyl's recall, -1 rebuild, -1 mana crypt, -1 Time spiral.  In: +1 balance, +2 Echoing truth, +2 Seal of Clensing.

Mirror or Mean Death-The mirror in my eyes is the race to the necro or Bargain or who can duress more.  the thing that works in your favor against mean death is that death wish costs 1/2 their life so thats less storm for tendrils.  In the straight mirror try and aggresively mulligain into either a first turn necro or alot of castable duresses.  Sideboard: -1 chrome mox, -1 Time spiral, -1 rebuild.  +1 DSC, +2 B2B.

[Snoop]

I noticed you had Darksteel Colossus coming in against 4CC ... do you think this is a real viable solution against them? Keeping in mind that 4CC generally has no SB against TPS specifically I don't see a reason for them to SB out Swords and even then it's only a Cunning Wish away.

Also in my plenthora of playing of TPS I have to say the whole Cunning Wish for Brain Freeze was nothing more than 'cute'. It just doesn't work in the same way Tendrils does and the whole "OMG, they just Cranial Extracted my win condition" scare just doesn't seem realistic to me.  I tried the Cunning Wish thing and realistically the only thing I got was Fact or Fiction OR SKeletal Scrying, either of which I would rather have has in the Maindeck instead of the Wish. Remember TPS isn't just combo, it's Control->I Win; meaning you use the resources you have (mainly life total) to net as much card advantage as you can to completely destroy your opponent in a single stormtastic blow of a drain life. Often I will have the apparent win in hand against a good matchup like Workshop/x, but I'll wait a turn and tutor for Rebuild (vs 5/3) or Duress (vs Control Slaver) just to tighten the coffin even more. It's not so much winning more as it is winning more reliably. In Goldfishing (which any good TPS player does for 3 months straight), you'll realize this winning more reliable concept when you make decisions like do I pop Jar or wait a turn?
Lastly, Forbidden Orchard MD? uh ... that is a TPS no-no. TPS is not LongDeath, you don't just go off and go off and go off until you win. TPS is all about preparation. With the average game going 4 turns (or more if facing a heavy disruption deck) you need to use your resources appropriately and giving your opponent creatures seems less than optimal. TPS is deck that wins the long haul. Ask any control player which combo deck they'd least play and it's probably TPS. Look at the others; Draw 7 is dead, and LongDeath has maybe three certified worthy players that I know of (haha although I don't know if Smmenen still would consider me in that category). The reason why TPS wins tournaments is because it's a deck that wins the war of attrition. After the initial dust has settled if you can control things reasonably you should be able to overwhelm your opponents.  If you really feel like Oath is that big of a force in your area I guess you could consider playing Forbidden Orchards since it is all about the Orchards for that matchup ... but I just feel like the real key to winning is exploiting the fact that they can't cast any of their win conditions without a Black Lotus in play. Hell if Oath is really such a problem maybe you should just play Bribery ...

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

sorry i took so long to reply but here it is...

Snoop Wrote:

I noticed you had Darksteel Colossus coming in against 4CC ... do you think this is a real viable solution against them? Keeping in mind that 4CC generally has no SB against TPS specifically I don't see a reason for them to SB out Swords and even then it's only a Cunning Wish away.

That was my bad i was'nt thinking straight.  the collosus should stay in the board for this match.

I was also very intrigued about the mainboard fact thing and tried it and after about 50 goldfishes i was pleasantly surprised to see how well it worked.

as for the mainboard orchids, I have yet to be shown in testing that they dont work and Oath isnt just big im my area, its big in all areas.  At the Chicago SCG power tournament i heard that like 40% of the field was Oath, yet I dont think it made it to T8.  Im not sure how all the people prepared for it, but i would bet that a fare number did something with orchids.  And im sorry to say it, but bribery may be the worst idea ive ever heard.

[Snoop]

Yes Fact or Fiction is very powerful in the main ... I've been trying it too. The real question is how much it's worth screwing up your Mana Base to play Wheel of Fortune. Playing 4x Polluted Delta, and 1x Volcanic Island (replacing the other 3xorchards with 3xunderground sea) smooths out the problem without opening yourself up to the massive problems playing orchard brings.  Also Orchards are not going to win you an Oath mirror match. They play wastelands whereas TPS plays no land disruption - NONE. Also Oath was something like 30% of the meta, maybe ... i think there was none in the top 16 though. Another tried and scratched idea - Doomsday. It's not good in TPS, it's better in Meandeck D-Day. Basically I tried it and ended up 13th with TPS/Doomsday at SCG Chicago. The real problem is the whole day I found myself struggling with deciding whether to combo off Doomsday or Draw7's. It tore the deck up. Honestly if I were you I'd test this which is so far the best TPS-style deck IMHO:

God's Will
=======
4-Underground Sea
4-Polluted Delta
2-Island
2-Swamp
1-Tolarian Academy

5-Moxen
1-Black lotus
1-Lotus Petal
1-Sol Ring
1-Mana Vault
1-Mana Crypt
1-Chrome Mox
4-Dark Ritual

1-Demonic Tutor
1-Vampiric Tutor
1-Mystical Tutor
1-Tinker

1-Ancestal Recall
4-Brainstorm
1-Skeletal Scrying
1-Gush

1-Mind's Desire
1-Fact or Fiction
1-Windfall
1-Timetwister
1-Time Spiral
1-Memory Jar
1-Necropotence
1-Yawgmoth's Bargain
1-Yawgmoth's Will

4-Duress
4-Force of Will
2-Rebuild

2-Tendrils of Agony


Sideboard:
3-Echoing Truth
4-Energy Flux
3-Gilded Drake
1-Skeletal Scrying
1-Darksteel Colossus
1-Platinum Angel
2-Rebuild

Obviously I was joking when I said Bribery ... but Gilded Drake is not so far off. Another option is to play Engineered Plague, but usually you can square off disruption wise enough to be able to easy resolve a drake (since against you they will get Akroma or the Big Platypus of Undeath) either of which i would rather have. That said I have to honestly comment that I think the Oath matchup should be played more like a control mirror than a combo mirror.  Why use up your resources getting Draw7's countered when you can just Drake their junk and use their own resources to kill them. Another thing I'm not sure if you're aware of is the fact that Oath plays zero removal for their own creatures post board.  Also it appears that the future of TPS in the US East depends on me as I appear to be the only person that devotes enough time to testing pre-tournament (except for that Doomsday idea that was like 20 minutes before the tournament).

BTW, I'm totally for the whole naming one's deck design ... you build it you call it what you want. (e.g. 'Meandeck' Oath, for people who don't understand what i mean) - I call my TPS "God's Will" because I choose to understand that God not I decides what godly, savage topdecks i get ... but also because that's the meandeck way to name decks ['team name' broken card], in this case my team is me and God and who would dare tell me Will isn't broken. I'm submitting this idea of changing TPS to God's Will ti the T1 community.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

The list seems more or less like the TPS lists that ive seen here or there EXCEPT for fact-which I have tested as of late and love, Scrying-which I have my doubts about, and gush-where are the dryads?  I just dont think that gush  is a solid choice unless You've been completely shut down, are on like turn 6, and are desperate for a draw.  Frankly i would rather have time walk or lion's eye diamond.  I am also like the name, but thats neither here nor there.

[Snoop]

Oh man I totally forgot LED, it belongs in there believe me. Anyway Time Walk is pretty worthless in the deck if you ask me. It's always been the first cut I've made in tweaking combo and it has always served me best. It just really doesn't have a place in building up your storm count ... and there isn't much TPS can't handle that it would need to go off, time walk, then go off for the win ... ya know what I mean? And as for Gush it is awesome, you have to really gold fish with it about a few thousand times to realize the difference it makes but it's awesome. And no it's not a turn 6 card it's a turn 2/3 card.  Also keep in mind TPS isn't going to be dropping a land every turn if the game goes past 3 turns so you actually only lose one land in play usually - not to mention wasteland protection.

[Shaman]

Time Walk is God-send with Necro in play since you do not have to bother about duress. It is also a random card drawer and a nice way to untap your mana before going off. I would not cut it.

[Phele]

I totally agree. Time Walk is just great in this deck. For example: Combine it with the Mirage tutors or the allready mentioned Necro.

I don't like Gush in TPS at all. You need your lands out not back again in your hand. A two Card drawer isn't that great in this combo build either. Play Frantic Search instead if you're looking for more synergy and even that card isn't that perfect. It's allways the one I would like to cut for something better.

Same for Fact or Fiction: It's good versus control but not the best draw versus the rest. Try out Gift's Ungiven, which gives you great possibilities in this deck working as Tutor and Draw as well. It costs the same as FoF, give you almost the same card advantage and allways just bombs.

I don't really get the need for Platinum Angel in the sideboard. It could just help against combo, where it is much too slow. So for what matchups do you side it in?

If your looking for some help against oath, don't play Gilded Drake. Play more counters and more one-side-draw like skeletal scrying. Your Kill is quicker and you just have to protect it.

Please don't start some discussion on the name, especially not with such a somewhat weird god relation. The deck was developed in Europe (Holland and Italy). They wanted to call it TPS, so this is TPS.

[Snoop]

Necro + Time Walk? I fail to see how a busted card like Necro merits the inclusion of a card like Time Walk. Now given I'm not saying that Time Walk isn't a good card I'm just saying that it isn't a card you'd ever tutor for ... and if you remove it and seriously test with it you'll realize it's a card you don't miss. I think the real thing you have to realize is what spot does Time Walk fill - card drawer or bomb drawer ... and the reality is it's somewhere in the middle. It's more like an untap phase for this deck, which really is unnecessary.  I mean once you go off you pretty much want to win, not have to re-storm it up again. Honestly I'd be much happier drawing a brainstorm off a Bomb then a Time Walk. Unless you stall out alot in which case Time Walk would be good in the deck, but then it's really on you why you stall out alot.

As for the inclusion of Skeletal Scrying, Fact or Fiction, Gush ... these are cards which help the general problem with TPS of having too little bombs.  Gifts Ungiven seems interesting ... however, playing it would be ridiculously dumb. No offense but Intuition > Gifts Ungiven. Think about it, you save 1 colorless mana in your casting and if you were going for 3 restricted cards you still get one. I guess I can't merit paying the extra mana when playing Intuition allows so much greater possibility. OMG, I just realize what a bomb this card could be ... casting YawgWill? Intuition for Lotus, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual ... wow this is going to require some serious testing.

Anyway "God's Will" doesn't have the problems of stalling out as TPS does and it doesn't get mocked by bad players ... but I will have to retest Time Walk to see if it merit inclusion, it just seems so weak to me when I'd rather be doing other stuff like winning.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

I goldfished about 300 times over the past 2 nights and found that gush ended up inprinted in chrome mox, ditched to force of will, or used to no avail.  later I tested with it against workshop and 4cc, both decks with waste+crucible and found that although it did help when I had it, its only a one time thing, and especially early on it can completley screw up your momentum, possibly putting you about a full turn behind.  

Intuition sounds like an interesting idea except is it worth only running 1.  I would hate to hang my game on it resolving and then lose when it dosent.  It will require alot of testing though.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

Now with another annoying deck in doomsday rewaring its ugly head, is it time to make color changes in TPS??  I have never had the pleasure of playing against the deck personally, but my board as well as snoops board have nothing against it.  But they have 2 null rods against us.  Fish has splashed white to run meddling mage, Workshop is running white for swords and seal.  I earlier threw out the idea of Main board orchids and seals and balance in the board, but mages can easily go in there too.  That idea was shot down by later testing when I got color screwed.  So i went back to a straight UB deck with fact main board and loved it.  But now with domesday threating to become the big budget deck, TPS has NOTHING against it.  I tried cranial extraction, but if they counter it I would have usually wasted a dark ritual or lotus to play it, and against decks with drains like oath, having it drained not only loses you a rit or lotus, but it gives them 4 mana and a momentum swing.  Then I tried a nice little oddesy rare called extract-which for those of you who dont know, it removes only 1 card from their library.  against doomseday it gets rid of beacon and then tendrils, and It dosent hurt when it gets countered.  against oath it grabs the creatures and against workshop it grabs welders.  

Ive also done some testing with intuition and think its great.  It grabs rituals, draw 7's if ur balsy enough and bounce spells.  it works really well and, early on, it can throw your opponent off if they dont know what your playing.

[ump]

I also run Platinum Angel in my sideboard, but I do not sideboard Darksteel Colossus.  I sideboard Angel against Aggro and against Combo (and Oath).  Here is my reasoning.  Casting an Angel is much easier than casting a Colossus.  The Angel will prevent you from losing while you can still try to combo out.  Against aggro, if they have removal in deck, it's a wasted slot as the primary goal is to combo.  If they don't have removal, the Angel can sit there attacking if possible.  Otherwise, it will buy time until you combo.  Oath doesn't currently run removal.  When they cast Oath, you usually have a turn or two to win.  Casting an Angel again buys time until you combo.  I haven't tested Fish, but they would need two removals to answer the Angel.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

DSC is, imho, necessary in the board.  It makes random decks and fish scoop on resolution.  It also gives decks like oath, doomesday, and foodchain a headache.  I just cant see taking it out.

[Snoop]

I do somewhat agree that I wouldn't feel as comfortable without DSC in the board ... However it is ridiculous to think it still just wins games like it originally did when the whole Tinker -> DSC -> gg thing first came out. There are very few decks left that can't win or handle turn 1 or 2 DSC. And it's worthless against the new Fish deck, Phish - which plays maindeck StP and other "problem" cards. Resolving a turn 1 Tinker might merit a frown, but not the almost immediate concession it use to. However the Platinum Angel is meant as a Tinker target for Mirror match or other combo. It basically buys you the time to combo, or sometimes just wins on its own. It's something I have been leaning back and forth on for a while but haven't settled on an answer yet.

Lastly just to make sure I'm clear, I do agree with Viridian that it just seems too good to remove Darksteel from the board. I mean the only reason he's SB for me is that in the average tournament around 60+% of my matchups are Workshop variants in which Goblin Welder owns DSC.

Speaking of SB, what do you guys think of Annul vs Damping Matrix. The Matrix is more versatile in shutting down Slaver.dec whereas Annul is much more crucial to winning the Stax matchup (countering an early Sphere or Chalice just wins games).

[Didor]

Against Stax, you'd better run more bounce, for if they go first, you might never be able to counter their stuff with annul, and I'm not even talking about playing a matrix...
What you need there is Force of Will, basic lands and 2cc+3cc mass bounce, to bounce their stuff end of turn and then combo on your turn.
[edit] By the way, just countering their first 3sphere/chalice is far from winning you the game... It just gives you one (or two if you are lucky) turns to set up your combo, but they can as well play a welder the same turn they played their chalice/sphere, or just replay another chalice/sphere their following turn, which you obviously won't be able to counter.

[Phele]

Platinum Angel is meant as a Tinker target for Mirror match or other combo. It basically buys you the time to combo, or sometimes just wins on its own.

Platinum Angel comes to late against combo. For Example: Belcher and Death Long kill you much ealier than you get the Angel out.

Damping Matrix can be some good, when you play in a Drain Slaver field.

[Didor]

Plus, the slower combo decks (TPS) will nearly always be able to bounce your angel when they go off...
So in the end, either you will be dead before bringing Plats to the board, or it will be useless, as when your opponent will have reduced you to 0 lives and have gained 25 more, he will just have to find a random artifact bounce (if he hasn't yet done so while comboing).
By the way, Phele, did you test Defense Grid as a side card against control in TPS ? I am wondering wether to play this or MisD/Eot draw (scryings)...

[Phele]

Yes I tested Defense Grid quit a bit. I has its merrits in a control rich field. MonoBlue can be really painful. This is where the Grids have their best part. But the disadvantage of not being able to brainstorm/wish/tutor eot is really big. In a mixed meta I would allways prefer the Misdirections in the the board.

Against the mirror and Belcher I was thinking about Cranial Extraction, but they would probably come too late as well. Anyway, they could have some use against tog either.

My current sideboard looks something like this:

2 Hydroblast
2 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Misdirection
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Brain Freeze
1 Gift's Ungiven
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Darksteel Colossus

It's still a Cunning Wish Sideboard which can pretty adapt to any matchup. As you can see, I splashed a bit red for the Wheel main. The Deck now even gets a little feeling of playing Draw7 with stable Manabase and Counterspells.

Gift's Ungiven has shown to be really strong. With so many singel bombs in the deck it can find you everything an Intuition could find but with added card advantage. Together with scrying and the Misdirection its a good anti-control-package.

DC is still a great sideboard evil. Against random aggro, fish, landstill and co he wins games on its own.

[Didor]

hmm, I have taken another route it seems... I do not play cunning wish main, and so as to have access to an other main deck win condition, I play the colossus maindeck.
My board is:
4 hydroblast
2 MisD
2 Scrying
3 stifle
2 hurkyl's recall
2 echoing truth
I do not play chain of vapor maindeck, but 2 rebuilds instead. Stifle seemed to me better than cranial against the mirror/combo; and it seemed not very likely that tog would allow me to play cranial...
I do not splash red, but I must admit that I would be pleased to turn my Frantic Search into a Wheel of fortune.
I am also wondering wether Fact or Fiction and/or Gifts Ungiven could take the slot of some scryings/MisDs. Is the proactive (scrying) or the reactive (MisD) the best way to tackle control... that is something I still have to figure.
By the way, I usually brainstorm turn 1, so it seems that the Grids, which would take the slot of the Scryings, would mainly cause problems for tutoring.
The last point I am testing is wether the Frantic search could be left out for a Lim Dul's vault. The vault is maybe a bit slow, and the Search often solves mana color problems... Did you test those two cards ?

[Malhavoc]

Hi Didor! Nice to see you on this forum too  

Your card choice is different from Phele's one, but they are both good. Many people try slightly different versions, and it's hard to say which is definitely better, it heavily depends on the situations and on the metagame you're in, but both are good choices. Anyway, just one comment: are you sure that removing the chain of vapor for another rebuild is a good idea? It is probably so if your meta is full with artifact prison decks, otherwise I see the chain to be slightly better: you can bounce your own artifacts to increase storm at a lower cost, and it allows you to have an answer against a meddling mage, a true believer or even against the new oath deck, bouncing his big creatures to gain some more time. This is not something which is gonna change your success rate by a big step (since most of these cards are not played too much usually), but at least according to my playing style I like to have an answer for every threath.

You may say that you run DC as alternative win condition, but that takes however three turn to win. Having another way to win in one turn using Tendrils despite some threats could be a better choice IMHO.

On the Frantic Search question: probably splashing red for wheel of fortune is the best choice. You can just put in a badland; you shouldn't need more according to the test me and other TPS players have done (some of them a lot better than me, like Luca Simone, AKA Trix on TheAbyss forum).

[Phele]

I played DC main for a long while and I allways liked the flexibility which killing route you are going. But I strongly looked for a way to speed the deck a little bit up and Colossus was definately not a tool for that. Again certain decks he is still gorgious, so he has a fine place in the sideboard.

I played with both - frantic search and lim dul's vault - for a while and wasn't  that satisfied with both of them. Frantic Search is a great combo enabler and Vault a good tutor. But I felt both as real card disadvantage for a not proper use. Frantic is just a not so effective digging tool while Lim Dul has a higher casting cost than the both mirage tutors with the same disadvantage: not giving you the card right away.

I'm totally satisfied by filling out this vacant slot with Wheel   which doesn't disturb the stable Manabase too much. I just cut a Swamp for a Badlands, a Flooded Strand for a Bloodstained Mire and - just my personal choice - the Chrome Mox with Mox Diamond, which works better on the draw seven route and gives me red as well. I feel really confident with this version. Three Basic Lands still give me this warm feeling of savety.

On the two Rebuilds: This is for sure - as Malhavoc mentioned - a metagame call. When you never felt the need for some permanent bounce then this must be the right coice. But without Cunning Wish either dont forget, that a resolved Meddling Mage, Arcane Laboratory or Pyrostatic Pillar can be really annoying.

What I'm really interested about, is the opinion of the experienced TPS Players on the comparison of the Doomsday deck with Force of Will and TPS. After around 50 goldfishing runs on doomsday and a few testing matches against Oath, Stax and Fish I think that Doomsday is a little bit less explosive meaning slower and easier to hate. On the other side Doomsday runs more disruption itself and has a saver kill. I'll stay with TPS for the moment but am not sure if this will last.

[Malhavoc]

We are still studying Doomsday, so don't take this as a final call; anyway it seems like it is more solid in some ways (for example it can easily win with a chalice for zero on the board), since it can also kill the opponent both with tendrils and with doomsday for beacon of destruction. However the built I've seen run Unmask instead of FoW; this is ok looking at the list, since there are not enough blue cards to support FoW, and Unmask is also good to see opponent's hand and know when to cast Doomsday safely. However not having FoW is really risky when the opponent start first, particularly if he's going to play a dreaded trinisphere, maybe followed next turn by smokestack or crucible.

[Didor]

@ Malhavoc: International posting is really good, and I think lots of people miss good opportunities to learn more when they only stick to one forum

As for the chain of vapor , it is true that I have not yet  have encountered problems that I could not solve with a DC; hence the 2 rebuilds, never dead as they also up the storm count, or at least cycle. Yet, with Oath getting big, being able to bounce a big angel/spirit might be nice.
Still, wouldn't echoing truth be better ? It can't be used to up your storm count by bouncing your moxen, but it can deal with angel/soldier/spirit tokens all at once, and help you get rid of a crippling chalice for one...

Anyway, playing with DC maindeck has been really nice, but still, I often find myself playing Tinker, and wondering wether to go the (slow) DC beatdown route, or the faster but somehow less secure Jar route... Maybe by putting the DC in the side, and replacing it with a wish I might streamline my strategic options game 1, and make decisions easier. This is definitely something I will test, although I am prejudiced against the wish.

As for the Wheel route, I might try it, as you suggest, just by taking out the Frantic Search, and going from 4 deltas 1 strand 2 islands 2 swamps to 4 deltas 1 bloodstained mire 2 islands 1 swamp 1 badland.
Or maybe a volcanic island instead of a badland ?

[Malhavoc]

Or maybe a volcanic island instead of a badland ?

Badland seems like a better choice. You basic lands are already islands, having another land which does not produce black could be risky. Remember that even if you have dark rituals, Tendrils still requires double black to be cast.

The option to have cunning instead of DS, as I've said, is a different route you can take. With red splashed in it can even let you side a Red Elemental Blast. As for Echoing Truth, that's a nice card, but maindeck I would prefere rebuild since it also raise your storm counter, and that's the way you win after all! However, with cunning available, I run a sideboard like this:

1 Brain Freeze (Alternative win condition. Mandatory. Only way out if you are hit by cranial extraction or similar threats)
1 Rushing River (good to bounce two problems in one shot)
1 Echoing Truth (as you've said, can get rid of many thing in one shot, and it's not even targeted, bye bye pristine angel)
1 Misdirection
1 Rebuild
2 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Hydroblast
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Stifle
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast

[Didor]

This kind of configuration seems really nice, and I will definitively give it a try...
Still, against control (and wastelands, obviously), does your badland (which is your only reliable red source, as you only randomly get lotus, petal or ruby) stay on the table long enough for you to use pyroblast/REB ?
It seems perfect for a one-shot use, i.e. getting R for casting a Wheel on the spot, but it seems risky to me to rely on it for playing reactively a REB or pyro...

[Malhavoc]

This kind of configuration seems really nice, and I will definitively give it a try...
Still, against control (and wastelands, obviously), does your badland (which is your only reliable red source, as you only randomly get lotus, petal or ruby) stay on the table long enough for you to use pyroblast/REB ?
It seems perfect for a one-shot use, i.e. getting R for casting a Wheel on the spot, but it seems risky to me to rely on it for playing reactively a REB or pyro...

As you've said, it is perfect for the one-shot wheel. As for the REB, you can simply activate the fecthland the very moment you need it, so that you can avoid wastelands. However, I warn you from putting in from the sideboard both REB and Pyroblast in addition to the wheel, since in these case you would need to use the badland more than once, and that could be risky.

[Didor]

That was exactly what I was thinking
Anyway I think I might rather just have either 1 pyro or 1 REB in my side to wish for, and maybe play another MisD or a Scrying instead of the second one, that would be easier to bring main deck against control... or maybe another stifle to help against combo.

[ViRidIAnLoNGBoW]

I did the whole Wheel of fortune splash red thing and the virginia SCG thing.  Although it did win me games, there were more than a few times where my volc was unsafe or i couldnt find it to cast the wheel.  Also, I tried toi have some red in the board, but on the same note, I was ofthen unable to dig up the red to play anything, and relying on drawing a petal or ruby is not smart.  

Also, Ive done quite a bit of TPS testing since the deck first came out, and have had some good fortune with it.  In that time, Cunning wish went from bad to worse, and especially in a deck that may only see 3-4 land drops, its not worth running it and wasting an end step.  Ive been testing a main fact and its BROKEN.  If you have enough bounce main board (rebuilds and hurkyl's, not chain of vapor) You will have no problem getting around workshop.  

I think that the only answer to doomesday will be extract.  Cranial extraction costs too much and its not worth the splash for meddling mage or something.