An answer to Oath for Fish that doesnt suck (I think.)

[Thissa]

No, really, I’m serious. People have been contemplating many different cards for U/r Fish to deal with oath, I’ve tried them, they really aren’t very good at all. This decklist can deal with oath however:

Note: this is edited list. Original list that people commented on had Kamis mainboard etc etc.

4 Meddling Mage
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Old Man of the Sea
1 Exalted Angel
3 Spiketail Hatchling

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Standstill
4 Curiosity
4 Force of Will
2 Misdirection
2 Null Rod
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire

SB:
3 Serenity
2 Energy Flux
1 Null Rod
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Kami of Ancient Law
1 Seal of Cleansing
2 Maze of Ith


I like this list. Meddling Mage is awesome sauce vs Oath. Yes, you can still get screwed over by the random 1st turn mox orchard oath, but this deck has a much better matchup. Swords to Plowshares is also fairly decent, and from the SB Maze of Ith/Seal of Cleansing/Kami of Ancient Law (ph33r) are pretty damn helpful as well.
I’ve been doing:
-1 Exalted Angel
-2 Old Man of the Sea
-1 Cloud of Faeries
-3 Null Rod (mana denial is a difficult route to victory vs them, but even so this may be a mistake I'm continually making. Please comment on this   )

+2 Maze of Ith
+1 Seal of Cleansing
+4 Kami of Ancient Law


The workshop matchups don’t suck too much worse either. You still have access to all of Fish’s hate save Rack and Ruin, and I much prefer Serenity in that spot. Swords to Plowshares can deal with Welders, and Meddling Mage can stop em before they’re down. If they run Blood Moon, well, Mr. Kami can help.

I’ve been doing:
-1 Exalted Angel
-1 Curiosity
-2 Cloud of Faeries
-2 Misdirection

+2 Energy Flux
+3 Serenity
+1 Null Rod

I haven’t tested the mirror match yet, but it seems like a possible problem. Suq'Ata Firewalkers will help from the sideboard, but some changes may have to be made if this becomes an issue.

I’m planning on doing:
-3 Null Rod
-4 Standstill

+2 Crucible of Worlds
+2 Suq’ata Firewalker
+2 Maze of Ith
+1 Seal of Cleansing

I haven’t tested vs Tendrils either yet, but it seems like I can only do better because of Meddling Mage and Serenity in addition to the Null Rods and Force of Wills it already has in other versions of Fish.


Discuss, etc.

[absolute]

While at it's core this seems like a fish build it isn't entirely accurate to the theme that fish usually likes to stick to. Exalted angel is a nice creature, but it isn't as cost efficient in a tempo deck like fish. Meddling mage may be good in theory, but this deck (like other fish builds) lacks the countermagic to push the mage through against the counterbase of oath.

Directing an entire deck at oath has also led to poor card decisions, and a careless build which isn't good for ALL matchups. STP will not come in handy the majority of the time, unless you are strictly playing oath, welder decks, and GAT (not likely). Wouldn't that extra null rod be more efficient maindecked than STP? Is serenity a fast enough answer to deal with oath killing you? is it even better than Eflux/RnR/Naturalize/Disenchant? Maze of ith is a fairly nice answer, but can be wasted and will most likely never see the time of day. Another astonishing card decision you made was taking away something that might help your matchup against oath, and definately helps against other decks- Stifle!

All and all this isn't your average fish build, and packs less hate for oath than do u/g or U/G/r builds. WTF has a better chance against oath than this, because meddling mage isn't the answer that fish was looking for, and can only serve as a "creature" in the way that it will most likely never attack, and will probably never be nothing better than a counterspell in its place against oath or tendrils.decks.

[Stupid_Newb]

In all honest, I can't see this working. Red/Blue have been the primary Fish colors for a reason. You get Artifact hate, Fire/Ice, Mox Monkey, and Lavamancer. Now without those colors, what do you do against Welders?.......

.......nothing. You simply don't have the resources available to stop Welder based decks. You can't rely on counters, and a Welder can hit faster than a Meddling Mage. So if you don't get a Null Rod game one against Welder decks, you might as well pick up your cards, start sideboarding, and get ready for game two.

[Negator]

Why do you not try 2 Waterfront Bouncer and 1 Chain of Vapor instead of the white splash?

[M]

So you have constructed a Fish deck to beat Oath. It's really not that hard. Try constructing a Fish deck that can beat anything and not lose to Oath. That's hard.

From the looks of it, any streamlined Stax variant with tear your deck apart, they will just laugh at all your Grizzly Bears and go broken on you with an army of Stacks, Spheres, Wires, and Crucibles.

[Thissa]

@absolute.

erm.

STP will not come in handy the majority of the time, unless you are strictly playing oath, welder decks, and GAT (not likely).

StP is good against:
Oath
Fish
Aggro
Welder decks
Dragon

StP isn't completely dead against:
MonoBlue
4CC

StP is bad against:
Storm without Xantid Swarm.

I've probably forgot some decks here, but my point is that StP is almost never a dead card.

Is serenity a fast enough answer to deal with oath killing you? is it even better than Eflux/RnR/Naturalize/Disenchant?

If you read my sb plan vs Oath, I don't bring it in vs Oath. It's for workshop aggro, ravager, and stax, which all are present in decent numbers in my metagame. Serenity is definitely better than Naturalize against these decks.

WTF has a better chance against oath than this, because meddling mage isn't the answer that fish was looking for, and can only serve as a "creature" in the way that it will most likely never attack, and will probably never be nothing better than a counterspell in its place against oath or tendrils.decks.

I disagree completely. I've tested Ug Fish with Bouncer/Drake MD and Emerald Charm, more bouncers, and Maze of Ith sb against Oath, and I still died terribly most of the time because of Pristine/Iridescent angels boarded in.

Exalted angel is a nice creature, but it isn't as cost efficient in a tempo deck like fish. Meddling mage may be good in theory, but this deck (like other fish builds) lacks the countermagic to push the mage through against the counterbase of oath.

Dont hate 3cc cards in moderation. I've run Old Man of the Sea and Suq'Ata Firewalker in Fish decks as 2 or even 3-ofs in Fish (as have many people) and Exalted Angel really isn't more than a 3cc card.

This deck CAN resolve spells. You have so many cards they need to counter, and a better draw engine, as well as 4 Force of Will and 2 Misdirection, which is as many free counters as they do.

Why do you not try 2 Waterfront Bouncer and 1 Chain of Vapor instead of the white splash?

I've tested both Ug and Ur Fish with 2 Waterfront Bouncer and 2 Gilded Drake mb and 1 Drake and 1 more bouncer SB.  I have been preferring this build because Waterfront Bouncer and Gilded Drakes are very very poor weapon against the protection angels, as i stated in my above post.

You get Artifact hate, Fire/Ice, Mox Monkey, and Lavamancer. Now without those colors, what do you do against Welders?.......

.......nothing. You simply don't have the resources available to stop Welder based decks. You can't rely on counters, and a Welder can hit faster than a Meddling Mage. So if you don't get a Null Rod game one against Welder decks, you might as well pick up your cards, start sideboarding, and get ready for game two.

:/

4 StP, 4 Force of Will. That's how I plan to do it. Read what Serenity does, read what Energy Flux and Null Rod do. And test it pls. This deck does not roll over a die to workshop.

From the looks of it, any streamlined Stax variant with tear your deck apart, they will just laugh at all your Grizzly Bears and go broken on you with an army of Stacks, Spheres, Wires, and Crucibles.

Do I really have to respond to this after what I've said already in this too-long for comfort reply?

[Stupid_Newb]

[quote="Thissa]
4 StP, 4 Force of Will. That's how I plan to do it. Read what Serenity does, read what Energy Flux and Null Rod do. And test it pls. This deck does not roll over a die to workshop.[/quote]

I never said anything about post-board matchups. I specifically commented about the bad game one matchup against some Welder decks, Control Slaver in particular. How do you rely on sneaking past a Null Rod or StP against a deck that runs two more counterspells than you do?

The game two matchup is no heaven either. Energy Flux isn't THAT hard to work around if you're Control Slaver (save up cheap artifacts in hand while a Slaver is in the grave, cast the artifact, float mana, and pitch out the Mox for a Slaver).

[BlueRedGaey]

Putting the white in the deck throws off the whole tempo of the deck. Any bounce can effectively take care of a white/black creature in and G/U deck. So why run the mage. My suggestion is take out the hatchlings and put in 2 waterfront bouncers and 2 guilded drakes. Then get 1-2 chain of vapors/seal of removal/echoing truth/any good bounce and you have them covered. Also misdirection helps against them because in a counterspell war it is basically  another FoW. This is just my opinion though and nobody likes my opinion.

[Thissa]

Mmm... True, Control Slaver might be an issue :/

I need to test vs that

But this deck can still be Fishy against Control Slaver, utilizing its mana denial, Standstills, etc.

...However, at least Lava Dart is a dead card  

As for the Bouncer/Drake issue and the Misdirection issue, Please read my posts :/ First off, I'm running 2 Misdirection maindeck. *cough*

Secondly,
I've tested Waterfront Bouncer and Gilded Drake, and they just don't cut it against Pristine and Iridescent Angel, which a smart Oath player should probably bring in vs Fish.

[Bell.of.Ygg]

This was brought up briefly in IRC.  I suggested bounce, but somebody (I can't remember who) one-upped me with Ensnaring Bridge, a suggestion I didn't see in this thread but felt I had to share.  Unless your hand is absolutely stuffed, it should keep Akroma and Spirit away, and depending on how things go might be useful against pristines, exalteds and 5/3's  as well.

I'm at a loss though how to deal with Stax.

[BlueRedGaey]

In another thread about fish vs oath i suggested using the bridge. It costs 3 mana but i think it can really help you may just have to get 2 moxen in the deck to speed it up. if you have 6 cards in hand then spirit/akroma cant attack. Get down to 4 cards the other 2 cant attack. I think it is a good idea but some ppl dont.

[pinoy_tech]

ok, im going to chime in on this one...unless your metagame is totally infested w/ oath, why bring this up? hate decks usually do not do well against the rest of the field...look at Oshawa stompy, its a great deck, w/ a maindeck full of hate, in theory, it should peform quite well in the new meta w/ all the workshop decks running around, and to put it str8, where is it? its not very good anymore, many decks have bumped up the basic land count and 3sphere really slows it down...w/ a 6 counter base, 10 if you want to include the mages, oath still has way more counters that you and they play back to basics, and you still have to deal w/ specific UW casting cost of the mage...im a great fan of UW, but w/ only forces as your only real hard counter, your going to have a hard time, its more of an uphill battle for this deck, im not saying it cant win, even w/ serenity, a good suggestion to deal w/ artifacts and enchantments, how is this synergistic w/ all the enchantments you play MD? you take the main draw engine of fish away, are you going to rely on the lone ancestral?

[Draco2156]

Hey, everyone I agree with Thissa in some ways, but I think turning this deck into more of a control deck would be better. I think that meddling mage is definately worth playing and using, exalted angel is good too. I like the idea of isochron's scepter in this deck, but it depends on if the deck stays fish or becomes scepter control.

Isochron's Scepter has good interaction with Swords to Plowshares, Fire//Ice, Orim's Chant, and maybe even counterspell. Even though the null rods are there, I think we should move them to the SB, because their will be more Oath this season.

I also see pristine angel as a possible win condition in the SB along with a cunning wish based SB including null rods. I think Pristine would be a good card against control, and oath. I do think cunning wish deserves a chance, because of its effectiveness in extended and possibly now T1. Brainstorms would be a good inclusion also along with them I would add intuitions so you can fetch what you need. Maybe adding AKs isn't a bad idea either.

Creature wise there should be 2-3 Exalted angels as the main win condition, and 4 meddling mage for control. Also the kami of law isn't a bad choice, because it helps against certain decks and serves as a blocker.

So here's what I think the list should look like

U/W Scepter Control

2 Exalted Angel-Main Win Condition
4 Meddling Mage-Board Control
3 Kami of the Ancient Law-Removal and blocker(maybe?)

4 Isochron's Scepter
3 Brainstorm
3 Fire//Ice
3 Cunning Wish(or Kami of the ancient law?)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
3 Orim's Chant
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
5 Plains
6 Island

SB
2 Pristine angel
1 Intuition
1 Stifle
3 Null Rod
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Orim's Chant
1 Fire//Ice
3 Cloud of Faeiries
1 Misdirection
1 Enlightened Tutor

[Thissa]

This is an answer for Fish, not for control

In other news, I think I'm gonna go ahead and take advice about Exalteds. They have been a bit clunky, and I miss Spiketails

So in the maindeck, I am going -2 Exalted Angel -1 or 2 Kami of Ancient Law, and +3 or 4 Spiketail Hatchling. I can't forget that this is still a mana denial deck and not just an oath killer deck... thanks for the comments so far  

[Stupid_Newb]

Definately find a spot for your Hatchlings. Not only are they useful in virtually every matchup, but also specifically against Oath, if you must, you can always just sacrifice it, and wait for an answer to Oath.

[Whatever Works]

Is it just me or does this deck look like a bad version of EBA??? It appears to have taken cards from EBA and Fish shoved them together, and because the deck has maindeck hate cards vs. Oath is excepted. Fish was good because of the synergy that this deck appears not to have.

[Thissa]

Triple post :>

And its not quite EBA

Its just that many of the cards from EBA are excellent for aggro-control heh...

Now here is the list I am testing currently after discussion on IRC (Magic-League :s) and some testing:

//NAME: Untitled Deck
SB:  1 Seal of Cleansing
SB:  1 Control Magic
SB:  4 Kami of the Ancient Law
SB:  2 Maze of Ith
SB:  2 Crucible of Worlds
SB:  1 Null Rod
SB:  2 Energy Flux
SB:  2 Serenity
        4 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Time Walk
        1 Ancestral Recall
        2 Null Rod
        2 Misdirection
        4 Standstill
        4 Force of Will
        4 Curiosity
        4 Cloud of Faeries
        1 Exalted Angel
        2 Old Man of the Sea
        3 Spiketail Hatchling
        1 Enlightened Tutor
        4 Meddling Mage
        1 Strip Mine
        4 Wasteland
        1 Polluted Delta
        2 Faerie Conclave
        4 Mishra's Factory
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Island
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Tundra
        1 Plains

Pretty much the same, except with Kamis finally cut from the MD since they are usually terrible, and with Enlightened Tutor which looks quite promising, allowing me to run a few 1-ofs. A bit slow, yes, but when I'm not dropping a Conclave first turn I can often fetch a Standstill/Null Rod, or even a Mox Sapphire if I want to drop a turn 2 morphed angel/Old Man/Energy Flux post sb. Speaking of post sb, it also fetches Serenity, Seal of Cleansing, Crucible, or Control Magic. Just kind of helpful for utility's sake. The deck still has very positive matchups against Oath (well, as far as I can tell after 3 test matches :S), so I am pleased.

LMK what you think..

[barrin]

I'm playing fish-like decks since a long time, and actually think that the correct draw engine is 3 brainstorm 3 curiosity 3 standstill. With such configuration you can dig in your deck when you're searching for the answer you need or reshuffle back in to your library cards you don't need in that moment.
For the rest of your build i like kami in side, but how -4 cloud + flying man?
It's the same card excepts it doesn't cycle but it changes your ccs. A chalice set at 2 it can wrec you down.
Then I think you lack countermagics withou any daze or stifle. 2 misdis are good vs control but so bad vs artifact decks.
Seems too much a deck based to beat ONLY oath.

[Gabethebabe]

Curiosity sucks in UW Fish

Lavamancer >>> Meddling Mage

[Thissa]

@barrin

You may be right about the draw engine, but it really isn't a problem with the deck and I don't think that change, if necessary, should be made without testing saying that it should be... Mmm...

Flying Men is a great card, but Cloud of Faeries synergizes with Standstill/Null Rod/Meddling Mage/Spiketail Hatchling much better if you happen to play a conclave first turn, and don't forget that Cloud of Faeries can cycle (minor, but useful in suprisingly many games.) However, it's fairly easy to argue from this that this deck lacks enough one drops (only 2 conclaves, an Enlightened Tutor and technically one mox) but Swords to Plowshares is often my first turn play against many decks. Still, a valid point.

Yes, Misdirection is pretty much dead vs artifacts. and yes, I switched Dazes out just for the Oath matchup. Well, what can I say, I side them out vs artifacts and Daze is usually dead vs Oath, esp. if they play around it.

mmm... @Gabe,

In testing this I haven't really seen much to indicate that Curiosity is so bad. I felt that a bit when Kami was maindeck, but with Spikeys back, I'm not noticing any ill effects.

As for 'Mancer, hes better in the Workshop and Fish mirror matchup, but Meddling Mage is better in the Oath matchup, and you can always Mage for Welder or Grim Lavamancer if they haven't already dropped or if they have you haven't already StPed it.

[barrin]

About the brainstorm issue it's 6 months I play them and I never found something bad abuot them. Yesterday I played u/r build in local tournaments where 60 people attended at and I won games only thanks to brain.
A build like mine finished 8.

[Lonely`]

hey jenneke (its shady:\)

i got 2 consecutive type 1 proxy tournaments in the next 3 weeks and im gonna run this build as i obv expect alot of oath
help me w/ sb plz thanx :\

This should have been a PM. Warning for spam.
-Jacob

[Thissa]

Mmm...

Been thinking about a switch from 1 Control Magic to 1 Ensnaring Bridge in the SB. Ensnaring Bridge is better against Oath, although Control Magic is pitchable to FoW... Testing has yet to show whether the Bridge is better against other decks, but I guess other people have tested it and I'd like to get their opinion... both are fetchable with Enlightened Tutor...