[Type 4] Firebreathers and You

[Nefarias]

It seems to be the general consensus around here that firebreathers are big no-no for Type 4 stacks. The object of this thread is to convince you otherwise.

Let me start by stating the obvious—some stacks simply can’t handle firebreathers. That’s understandable. However, most of them should be able to.

Also, a small bit of background. Some of you may be familar with TheBrassMan’s pile, which he has been advocating at various tournaments and on IRC. Included in it are cards such as Staff of Domination, infinite Quanar flips and Mishief activations, and multiple firebreathers. This is the T4 deck I play with almost exclusively, and it's a blast. (Staff, obviously, is way too sick, but whatever.)

I think the best way for me to do this is to compare to a card that most of you likely play without much problem: Door to Nothingness.

Similarities: Both potentially instant-win, both potentially need to wait a turn, both a way to deal with opponent at infinite/massive life total.

Things that stop Door: Stifle, Bind, Squelch, Interdict, destroy/steal/whatever it before it untaps

Things that stop a firebreather: Blockers (aka every creature in the deck), destroy/steal it before upkeep (aka nearly every removal spell in the deck), Delaying Shield, Panacea, etc.

Liabilities for Door: Willbender, Aquire, someone stealing it before untap

Liabilities for firebreathers: Captain’s Maneuver, Agonizing Demise (non-black), Grab the Reins, Backlash, Reflect Damage, all of which means YOU LOSE, plus Awe Strike, Reverse Damage, Spinal Embrace (if toughness pumps), Quicksilver Elemental, stealing it (inc. Bribery).

The only wrench in my case is as follows:

Cards that make Door better: Not much, maybe Beacon of Unrest, Bosh.

Cards that make firebreathers better: Anything that give it haste, Bloodshot Cyclops, all kinds of reanimation spells, “sneak� spells (Timmy, Quicksilver Amulet, etc.), your own Awe Strike, GtR or Captain’s Maneuver (if they block) , Armored Guardian

Personally, I feel that the pros certainly outweight the cons. I think you need to give firebreathers a chance.

We’ve been playing with firebreathers for over a year now, and we really haven’t had any problems with it. Even before we had the superstack, we had weaker firebreathers (the first was Goblin Taskmaster), and they never caused problems (Note that back when Taskmaster was in, we thought Searing Wind and Memnarch were too good). Nowadays, only the best firebreathers make it in our deck – Kamahl, Fist of Krosa; Avarax; Consumptive Goo; Dragon’s Breath; and Cromat. I am in no way trying to convince you to play with these monsters, though quite frankly they are all mid-ranged picks.

No, what I am asking you to do is at least try little firebreathers (Pygmy Pyrosaur being the worst that can actually attack, IMO), and realize that they are really not as broken as one might imagine. In fact, I hypothesize after a few sessions, you’ll come to realize how balanced they are, and hopefully will start adding more and more powerful guys (perhaps Dungeon Shade, Darkling Stalker, and/or Goblin Taskmaster).

So, whaddya think? Are you playing with firebreathers now? If not, will you try them?

[Upinthe]

I'm just starting to build my first Type 4 stack, and I will try them. However, [card]Furnace Spirit[/card] is not going in no matter what happens.

[Lost In Admiration]

I use Avarax.  It's not overpowered by any means.  There are too many instant speed removal for it to be insane (not to mention stuff like Captain's Manuever).

[goober]

Door only works once.

[Alfred]

Firebreathers, especially flying ones make the game too swingy (if it wasn't that way already), and they are essentially better than any other creature.

[Kowal]

People that say the firebreathers are horribly unbalanced have probably never played with them.  They're really quite acceptable if your stack is prepared to handle them.

BrassMan's stack is hardcore because he runs the Firebreathers and Staff etc, but is pretty lacking on the removal.  Agonizing Demise is the firstest pick in his stack, and Cromat is the most annoying thing on the face of the planet.

They do however speed up the game quite a bit, so much in fact, that BrassMan and his group have concocted crazy ante rules to swap cards over the series of several games and keep everything fresh.  The pace is such that drastic changes can happen to a deck over the course of the evening, which you may like and you may not.

Honestly, I chose not to have firebreathers in my stack, not because they were too powerful, because they aren't.  But in New England, there are two T4 stacks:  Mine and BrassMan's.  Since it's a community thing, I figured I would keep mine a little lower on the power scale so people could choose which they'd rather play with.

[Nefarias]

Door only works once.

Admittedy, I missed that one, but firebreathers are lucky to do that.

People that say the firebreathers are horribly unbalanced have probably never played with them. They're really quite acceptable if your stack is prepared to handle them.

He is so right you don't even know.

Since it's a community thing, I figured I would keep mine a little lower on the power scale so people could choose which they'd rather play with.

I can respect that.

Firebreathers, especially flying ones make the game too swingy (if it wasn't that way already), and they are essentially better than any other creature.

I would sooooo much rather have Memnarch, or Bosh, or Chainer, or Nezumi, or Timmy, or Quanar, or about a million other things.