[Deck] 4c Oath... Could it work in today's metagame?

[Outlaw]

Since the recent success of Oath, many counter measures have risen to atempt to drop the "contender".  U/W Phish has been created rockin up on Meddlnig Mages, Slavery has a good game vs. Oath, and Stax feeds off its few permanents.  While all of this was occuring, my team and I was pondering, couldnt 4cc have a great game vs. Oath?  As we all know it uses mainboard swords, balance, cunning wish, and a 5 strip effects(have to implement this).  We had begun working on a 4c oath, (which could actually be a 5c, but not as reliable) to step up to the plate vs. Artifact.dec and Oath.dec.

Please keep in mind this is a very rough list we threw together, and would enjoy some criticism.

4c Oath.dec

-=Green=- 6
4x Oath of Druids
1x Gaea's Blessing
1x Regrowth (this is a questionable slot)

-=White=- 3
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Balance

-=Black=- 2
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will (also questionable)

-=Blue=- 23
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
4x Accumulated Knowledge
3x Intuition
2x Cunning Wish
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

-=Kill=- 2
1x Akroma, Angel of Vengence
1x Spirit of the Night

-=Mana=- 24
5x Moxes
1x Sol Ring
1x Black Lotus
4x Forbidden Orchard
3x Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
4x Polluted Delta
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Wasteland
1x Stripmine

-=Sideboard=- 15 (in the works)
1x Platinum Angel
2x Pristine Angel
3x Ground Seal
2x Arcane Laboratory
3x Energy Flux
-Wishable-
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Naturalize
1x Vampiric Tutor
2x Red Elemental Blasts

So this is a very basic gridline of 4c Oath, my team and I just threw it together and were in the process of testing now.  Lets take a look at the card choices that are questionable.

Regrowth, it just is such a great bomb when you intuition for stuff like Yawgmoth's Will, Regrowth, and Oath (puts your opponent into a very questionable position).

Yawgmoth's Will, I believe that yawgs win makes you win the game, its a 2B casting cost card that screams "I win".  But this could be definitely false with Gaea's Blessing, questionable slot.

Library of Alexandria, this deck runs alot of control elements and card dr aw, just felt it should be in.

-=Cards that are questionable=-

Duress, it gives an up vs. control, and it also ups vs. Oath.  Great card, but does it have a place in here?

Seal of Cleansing, this was a card that I was thinking about, ups vs. artifact and oath.dec (but I can also use oath's oaths, with orchard superiority).

I am questioning putting in more strip effects, and changing the sb around.

I have to cut this short, as work is actually calling

We have tested agaisnt 5/3 (TrixR4Kids style) a little bit of ToadSlavery, and it has been doing fairly well.  Please leave me some comments and I'll post again later, my apologies this isnt fully complete.

So basicly my questions are, could this deck be viable in today's metagame?  What are your suggestions for better card choices?  In the end, I would enjoy some opinions.

[Diaonic]

There is no synergy with yawg will, regrowth and blessing. I wouldn't run black just for demonic either. It seems like you are trying to do too much with the deck. I would drop the AK's and replace them with scrying if you really want to play black.

Is Balance and 2 swords really worth distorting your mana base and making your wasteland matchup worse? That was the biggest selling point of Oath, It was mono-u with a better kill. If my memory serves me right, I think people still play with Sundering Titan.  

[Outlaw]

There is no synergy with yawg will, regrowth and blessing. I wouldn't run black just for demonic either. It seems like you are trying to do too much with the deck. I would drop the AK's and replace them with scrying if you really want to play black.

Is Balance and 2 swords really worth distorting your mana base and making your wasteland matchup worse? That was the biggest selling point of Oath, It was mono-u with a better kill. If my memory serves me right, I think people still play with Sundering Titan.  

This is where alot of my gripe was, the lack of synergy.  Perhaps I should remove the yawgmoth's will, demonic tutor, and regrowth, allowing me to also remove the underground sea for another island or wasteland.  With the 3 cards removed I could add back in something else,  but what?  The reason I believe distorting the mana base for White is vs. Mirror and winning the first games vs. Platinum angel and we all know balance just wins you games sometimes.   With removing black it wouldnt be distorting too much, just removing an island for a tundra (fetchability).  Or on the other note I could just remove AK's for skeletal scryings and ensure to take out yawgs will / regrowth and perhaps add in duress?  See I was always a vivid 4cc player, and it has the ability to deal with stuff, which is what matters in the metagame today.

Is it possible to keep white in while adding in more wastelands?

[Diaonic]

Like I stated above, if I were going to run black I would run scrying. It makes the mirror a lot less random. Basically it comes down to whoever can resolve the biggest Ak wins and who draws 3 orchard or wastelands.

Your best defense against wasteland is obviously basic lands. That is why I wouldn't want to distort the mana base with white, and run as many basics as possible.

Then again this is all irrelevant is your opponent goes.
Land, mox, mox, lotus pristine angel  

*stabs Jacob with a Juggernaut*

[Outlaw]

Like I stated above, if I were going to run black I would run scrying. It makes the mirror a lot less random. Basically it comes down to whoever can resolve the biggest Ak wins and who draws 3 orchard or wastelands.

Your best defense against wasteland is obviously basic lands. That is why I wouldn't want to distort the mana base with white, and run as many basics as possible.

Then again this is all irrelevant is your opponent goes.
Land, mox, mox, lotus pristine angel  

*stabs Jacob with a Juggernaut*

4c Oath.dec

-=Green=- 5
4x Oath of Druids
1x Gaea's Blessing

-=White=- 3
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Balance

-=Black=- 7
1x Demonic Tutor
3x Skeletal Scrying
2x Duress
1x Vampiric Tutor

-=Blue=- 19
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
3x Intuition
2x Cunning Wish
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk

-=Kill=- 2
1x Akroma, Angel of Vengence
1x Spirit of the Night

-=Mana=- 24
5x Moxes
1x Sol Ring
1x Black Lotus
4x Forbidden Orchard
3x Island
1x Underground Sea
1x Tropical Island
1x Tundra
4x Polluted Delta
1x Library of Alexandria (perhaps a swamp instead?)
1x Wasteland
1x Stripmine

-=Sideboard=- 15 (in the works)
1x Platinum Angel
2x Pristine Angel
3x Ground Seal
2x Arcane Laboratory
3x Energy Flux
-Wishable-
1x Swords to Plowshares
1x Naturalize
1x Skeletal Scrying
2x ???

My one thing is the blue card count is low now? at 19... Should there be a swamp because of the increased amount of black?  I know vampiric tutor seems a bit random, but I just threw it down quick.

[TurboRattttt]

I'm going to have to agree with Diatonic, I think your deck is trying to go in too many directions at once.

I've been testing a version of oath with minimal black (duress+scrying) and it seems that the addition of even one additional dual land can mess with the mana base quite a bit.  Also, vampiric tutor is not a card I would play as the card disadvantage sucks in this deck.  Furthermore, why don't you just run echoing truth instead of StP and balance? Echoing truth can deal with spirits and platinum angel, that's the reason it was put in the sideboard of the original build.

It also seems like you should definitly be running 5 strips in the deck, to deal with fish, workshop, and other oaths. Maybe you could cut some intuitions?

All told 4c oath just doesn't seem like a viable deck.

[Ender]

I would remove the balance from the deck. I think its quite anti-synergistic because you want the other guy to get creatures. Adding an oxidize in the sideboard you help vs chalice for 2, which kills the deck. 3 scrying seems a bit much since you don't have the life gain ability of 4cc and you only want to remove the lands and fetches from the deck since it all might get shuffled back. Sol ring is bad, in my opinion also, because its essentially a dead card since only the wishes and intuition are in the 3 slot and the deck is trying to cast oath turn 1 or duress anyway.

[Outlaw]

I'm going to have to agree with Diatonic, I think your deck is trying to go in too many directions at once.

I've been testing a version of oath with minimal black (duress+scrying) and it seems that the addition of even one additional dual land can mess with the mana base quite a bit.  Also, vampiric tutor is not a card I would play as the card disadvantage sucks in this deck.  Furthermore, why don't you just run echoing truth instead of StP and balance? Echoing truth can deal with spirits and platinum angel, that's the reason it was put in the sideboard of the original build.

It also seems like you should definitly be running 5 strips in the deck, to deal with fish, workshop, and other oaths. Maybe you could cut some intuitions?

All told 4c oath just doesn't seem like a viable deck.

I definitely agree wth vampiric tutor, it shouldnt be in this deck as disadvantage is bad, very bad.  Now the thing with STP and Balance is that  they permanently deal with stuff, as truth just puts it back (in oaths case it pretty much does deal with stuff but what happens if I have Akroma and you do too?), balance is a card that can just win you games, you cannot cut intutions for lands as it will upset the mana base and intuition is godly in this deck Intuition ---> Oath or Orchard.  Maybe Vampiric tutor should possibly become a swamp ?  Or even sol ring could become a land, I believe having 4 basics would be suffice?  Another big issue is the number of strip effects, library of alexandria is good but perhaps it should become a wasteland?

So all in all right now

-1 Vampiric Tutor
-1 Library of Alexandria
+1 Wasteland
+1 Swamp?

25 mana sources seems very solid?

Could also do something like Duress owns all

-1 Sol Ring
-1 Polluted Delta
+2 Wastelands
for the total of 5 strip effects, or I could keep the delta and remove the new swamp I put in.

I would remove the balance from the deck. I think its quite anti-synergistic because you want the other guy to get creatures. Adding an oxidize in the sideboard you help vs chalice for 2, which kills the deck. 3 scrying seems a bit much since you don't have the life gain ability of 4cc and you only want to remove the lands and fetches from the deck since it all might get shuffled back. Sol ring is bad, in my opinion also, because its essentially a dead card since only the wishes and intuition are in the 3 slot and the deck is trying to cast oath turn 1 or duress anyway.

See heres the thing, if an opponent gets a good quality creature on the board I dont want them to have it.  I want them to have 1/1 spirits that arnt as great as 5/3 Juggies, angels of any sort, or an army of aggro like creatures.  I believe 3 scryings is needed because I suffer from not having the AK engine now, but I get a + vs. oath, and there are times when you wanna remove excess junk from the graveyard when you blessing anyways, but I do agree with you on the life loss porition.  Sol ring is bad, and it will be removed for something more important (swamp or wasteland).  I do agree on the oxidize in the sideboard, have to be able to deal with chalice for two, as all my ways to remove are cc of 2.

A couple more questions, could the mox ruby become a land?  That way I could keep the swamp, 4 fetches and 5 strips?  Lastly, should I include more wish targets in the sideboard?  I feel that my number is very low right now.

[Stupid_Newb]

Your manabase seems awfully unstable to me. You seem to have the numbers right, but you can't expect to run four colors plus five Strip effects and not get owned by Crucibles. The manabase already seems quite viable to Crucibles. That was a driving force behind MeanOath - resist Crucibles and Wastes. The deck did that, and it had success.

Your deck seems to be well built, but with such an unstable manabase, some matchups will totally screw you over.

[Moxlotus]

You can't combine 4CC and Oath.  4CC wants to control the board.  Oath just wants to win.  There is no happy median.

[Outlaw]

Your manabase seems awfully unstable to me. You seem to have the numbers right, but you can't expect to run four colors plus five Strip effects and not get owned by Crucibles. The manabase already seems quite viable to Crucibles. That was a driving force behind MeanOath - resist Crucibles and Wastes. The deck did that, and it had success.

Your deck seems to be well built, but with such an unstable manabase, some matchups will totally screw you over.

How is the manabase so awful? 4 basics, plus 4 fetches isnt very bad vs. crucibles, while Meandeck Oath ran a total of 6 basics if im right (plus 4 fetches), all I did was add more mana.

Now why cant this deck have a better game vs. Oath and control the board then just win?  Oath looses vs. resolved spells alot of the time, while this can actually pull itself out of a hole.  4cc controls the board by its versatility, strip effects, and permission. Oath drops oath and wins, this has the same qualities? But can have a better late game vs. many decks.

[TurboRattttt]

I think a lot of testing needs to be done in order to determine whether or not this deck can really perform. The mana base is unstable because it has more than one dual, essentially.  Mono U oath was less affected by mana disruption becuase it ran five basics and four fetchlands. Since green was only splashed, the four orchards and mox emerald provided all the mana the deck needed to get up and running.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the orginal build was all about smashing face. It's an agressive deck with some control elements; thats what made it so strong. Addiding additional colors slows the clock, and makes it harder to achieve a quick win.

Control elements are certianly nice, but I'd rather have an akroma out first or second turn swinging for six than have a balance or swords to plowshares sitting dead in my hand.  I think the best defense is a good offense, in this case.

[HuntedWumpus]

This deck should be run with Black, and thus employing tutors, scrying, and duress. You have splashed white for STP and Balance. STP for creature removal is simply illogical in this deck.

1. There are few creatures (if any that are really played) in todays meta game that scare akroma, and the Spirit kicker.

2. The only way, generally speaking, this deck looses to creatures is a massive swarm of little critters. STP is very poor at dealing with massive little dudes.

Balance, is again one of those cards that is questionable in the current metagame.

I would suggest the following.

-1 Balance
-2 Swords To plowshares

+2 Duress
+1 Gea's blessing (having two is far superior to having a single one, in decks with so much draw)
Fix the mana base to reflect the color change

[Outlaw]

This deck should be run with Black, and thus employing tutors, scrying, and duress. You have splashed white for STP and Balance. STP for creature removal is simply illogical in this deck.

1. There are few creatures (if any that are really played) in todays meta game that scare akroma, and the Spirit kicker.

2. The only way, generally speaking, this deck looses to creatures is a massive swarm of little critters. STP is very poor at dealing with massive little dudes.

Balance, is again one of those cards that is questionable in the current metagame.

I would suggest the following.

-1 Balance
-2 Swords To plowshares

+2 Duress
+1 Gea's blessing (having two is far superior to having a single one, in decks with so much draw)
Fix the mana base to reflect the color change

I took that advice, it seems appropriate.  My question lies here, with adjusting the mana base cause of removal of white, should I include a black source, blue source or my 5th strip effect?

My manabase would look like this with the removal of white

-=Mana=-
5 Moxes
1 Black Lotus
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
3 Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Wasteland
1 Stripmine

Single crucible of worlds possibility? I <3 replaying Orchards, helps in the mirror with Orchard superiority.

Another question, is 25 mana sources too high?  Should this end up just becoming something like Duress Owns All (remove intuitions for more permission spells)?  Is the blue card count too low now and should be increased?

Lastly, can someone help me out with some decent sideboard opinions?  As I said before I threw together something really fast. With the current sideboard, I have so few wish targets.

-=Sideboard=- 15 (in the works)
1x Platinum Angel
2x Pristine Angel
3x Ground Seal
2x Arcane Laboratory
3x Energy Flux
-Wishable-

1x Naturalize
1x Skeletal Scrying
1x Coffin Purge
1x Echoin Truth
(oxidize?)

My apologies for the all questions, just wanna get somethin goin with this.

[Stupid_Newb]

Well first of all, your basic count is fine, but if you try to run five Strip effects, you'll be at a big tempo loss. You'll be using turns to take out opponent's lands, and opponent's will be using turns to take out your lands. If you really think that Crucible will not completely dominate you in that situation, you've got another thing coming.

[Outlaw]

Well first of all, your basic count is fine, but if you try to run five Strip effects, you'll be at a big tempo loss. You'll be using turns to take out opponent's lands, and opponent's will be using turns to take out your lands. If you really think that Crucible will not completely dominate you in that situation, you've got another thing coming.

I have 2 things to say to that, Orchard and Workshop.  A huge percentage of the time, workshop.dec drops a 3sphere, and relies on their workshop to keep them in the game, Waste ---> Workshop, and they get under their own 3sphere.  With Orchards in the mirror, who ever has superiority wins the game, as the Oath mirror is bloody retarded.   My thoughts with crucible are that it would help out both matches even more.  With oath all you need is land mox oath, then you can proceed to waste away your opponents lands till you win, 4cc had somewhat the same idea, they could go quick aggro with an early angel, or control the game and drop their win.  Oath I believe can do the same, early oath or ride out your permission spells till you drop it.

I may try out 4 strip effects and throw library back in.