When do we go for it ...

[bebe]

Here is the question. I'm holding a fetch, a ritual, a doomsday, dual land  a brainstorm, limdul's vault and a chromatic sphere. It is turn one and I am first playing game one.
Would you play aggressively - ritual/doomsday and hope your opponent has no counter for tuen two ( remember you have no idea what he is playing)

Do you play the Brainstorm at end of turn looking for Duress or FoW? If you fail to find either have much have you hurt your chances of winning.

Do you play the Chromatic Sphere setting up a turn two win anyway and hope to draw into a counter.

Type 1 has accelerated. I would definately have played Brainstorm first in the past but now the extra turn can be a killer allowing your opponent to find solutions, a lock or counters. There is an element of risk attached to each scenario.

So have we altered our play styles as certain decks become more popular? How frightened are we of counters, trinisphere and Oath? Do we play more aggressively or more conservatively as a result? Conversely how do you feel playing a combo deck when you are piloting Oath, Fish or Workshop? Will you mulligan into FoWs, Trinis, etc. as a general rule?

[moses2k]

I would never play that hand the aggressive way.. in order to establish a turn2 win, u would have to fetch a usea(doomsday-->ancest)
That exposes you to wasteland,trinisphere(doesn't really make  a difference.. here the right way would be brainstorm in order to find a fow o_O )or a counter which would kill you..

I would drop the sphere and wait a turn.. (fetching an island of course)

Then you would have far more options on the next turn...

[Malhavoc]

I wouldn't try the aggressive way. Not at least with a doomsday deck. If the opponent has an active force he is not gonna counter now, but counter instead one of the key spells once I have only an handful of cards in my deck. This means that trying to cast doosday is not saying "if it goes wrong, I could try later", but "if it goes wrong, I lose".

I choose the Sphere too.

Just note that with an Oath deck I could try to combo out first turn instead, since in case of a counter I could just try casting another oath later. If I have a good amount of tutors in my hand I would probably play oath first turn.

[Diaonic]

I had a simlar scenario that blewup in my face. My hand was:
Ritual
Ritual
Defense Grid
Doomsday
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Delta

I played delta, fetched swamp. I cast ritual played defense grid with 1 b floating.

He forces, i force back, he misdirects my fow onto itself.

I cast the other ritual, he ancestrals. I play doomsday, he forces.

I cried.

[bebe]

would never play that hand the aggressive way.. in order to establish a turn2 win, u would have to fetch a usea(doomsday-->ancest)
That exposes you to wasteland,trinisphere(doesn't really make a difference.. here the right way would be brainstorm in order to find a fow o_O )or a counter which would kill you..

I would drop the sphere and wait a turn.. (fetching an island of course)

Note that if you play the Sphere first you will not get a chance to play Brainstorm until turn two ... I would certainly play Lim Dul's over Brainstorm in that scenario looking for a FoW. This allows for a turn three win. Playing Brainstorm first only sets you up for a possible turn three win if it is a good draw. Note that in both scenarios you are giving your opponent two turns ...A first turn Doomsday allows your opponent only a single turn ... The correct play is first turn Sphere ... at that point you can decide on turn two to wait an extra turn for Force backup or go off turn two without it. This leaves you in the same position as a turn one Doomsday.
My example was somewhat simplified, I'm afraid. But the question is how aggressively do we approach the game given that most decks want to take control by turn two. How aggresssively do we mulligan with different arch types? What do we consider to be an acceptable start with Oath or Workshop? With Madness or Fish? It is much easier to make a determination game two than is game one.

[Malhavoc]

I had a simlar scenario that blewup in my face. My hand was:
Ritual
Ritual
Defense Grid
Doomsday
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Delta

I played delta, fetched swamp. I cast ritual played defense grid with 1 b floating.

He forces, i force back, he misdirects my fow onto itself.

I cast the other ritual, he ancestrals. I play doomsday, he forces.

I cried.

You played well with TWO defenses in hand. You just had bad luck. It happens  

[bebe]

If you suspect they are playing Trinis then you almost must try to go off turn two. A first turn Trini will ruin your day in either scenario. Game one the decision is tough as to wait the extra turn or not. You might be able to figure out what they are playing by their first land drop but they could be cagey if they are aware that the Chromatic Sphere means you are playing Doomsday. Against Workshop I would be tempted to go for a turn two win depending on the land/mox drop. I don't want them to find an answer turn two.
We know we need Duress or FoW against control. We just do not know game one if they are playing control ...

[VGB]

We know we need Duress or FoW against control. We just do not know game one if they are playing control ...

1) Ask (either them or their last opponent).
2) Peek.
3) Walk the tables.

Not always the most ethical thing in the world, but hey, Whatever Works  

[Kowal]

I cleaned some douchebag from the thread, as well as comments that make no sense with the lack of douchebag.  Try to keep this thread clean, guys.
-Kowal[/color]

[Necropotenza]

Playing Doomsday I'd never play aggressively unless I know my opponent's deck has no possible disruption to screw me. This means I won't play aggressively against good decks, and that if I do it it's because I'm in a desperate situation.

Ritual
Ritual
Defense Grid
Doomsday
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Delta

Providing you resolve Doomsday, how are you going to win in turn 2 (as long as the opponent has no disruption at all) if you only have a Swamp in play? The Dday stack can't be the usual Beacon kill as you don't have blue for Ancestral.

[Juggernaut GO]

corey is forgiven, F combo anyway, right ?

[Diaonic]

Yea combo's not my thing regardless.

[Mixing Mike]

I think Doomsday is best games 2+3 because you know how to play the hands you get.  This is the main reason why I don't like it, espically for the larger events.  I think it's stupifying how Menendian took it to what ought to have been a Top 2 at SCG.

(Note that I'm not bashing his top 4 opponnent.  If Steve didn't make those two errors, I'd say the match was his.)

[M]

Here is the question. I'm holding a fetch, a ritual, a doomsday, dual land  a brainstorm, limdul's vault and a chromatic sphere. It is turn one and I am first playing game one.

I would play it safe in this situation, but I would search agressively for disruption. The reason I wouldn't play the Doomsday gambit against an unknown deck is that the risk of being disrupted turn 1 is too great and I would be throwing away perfectly good cards in my hand that I could use to win a few turns later, even against that same disruption. Brainstorm, Lim-Dûls vault and Chr.sphere all become worthless if I play Doomsday turn 1 because I will draw Ancestral next turn anyway, and those three mentioned cards then become irrelevant. I would have effectively disrupted myself of three good cards, and for what? I am still not safe from a turn 1 Trinisphere or Tangle Wire, a FoW, a Stifle/Daze, or even land, Mox, Mana Leak. Immunity to Duress is nice, but that's about it.

[hulk3rules]

I had a simlar scenario that blewup in my face. My hand was:
Ritual
Ritual
Defense Grid
Doomsday
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Delta

I played delta, fetched swamp. I cast ritual played defense grid with 1 b floating.

He forces, i force back, he misdirects my fow onto itself.

I cast the other ritual, he ancestrals. I play doomsday, he forces.

I cried.

Sorry to be a little off topic- but with all the talk about how bad T1 players are I have to bring this up.  That play is illegal, a spell can not target itself.

There is a way to do what he wanted to, in fact there are two different ways for him to get the job done.  But what he did is not one of them

[Godder]

I had a simlar scenario that blewup in my face. My hand was:
Ritual
Ritual
Defense Grid
Doomsday
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Delta

I played delta, fetched swamp. I cast ritual played defense grid with 1 b floating.

He forces, i force back, he misdirects my fow onto itself.

I cast the other ritual, he ancestrals. I play doomsday, he forces.

I cried.

Sorry to be a little off topic- but with all the talk about how bad T1 players are I have to bring this up.  That play is illegal, a spell can not target itself.

There is a way to do what he wanted to, in fact there are two different ways for him to get the job done.  But what he did is not one of them

That depends on what he means by 'itself'. If, by 'itself', he's referring to FoW (i.e. Misdirect FoW to FoW), then that's an illegal play. If he's referring to MisD (i.e. Misdirect FoW to Misdirect), then that's legal. What he said wasn't necessarily wrong, just ambiguous.

[Zelc]

What if instead of having that hand of 7, you had to mulligan down to four:
Dark Ritual, Doomsday, Underground Sea, Underground Sea

You are playing first.  You know what your opponent is playing.  Do you go for the turn 1 Doomsday or not?  What if this is game 3, and both parties have sideboarded?  What if one of the Underground Seas were a Swamp?  If you reply, please list what you would do if your opponent were playing which decks (i.e. go for it only against aggro and workshop decks, wait against control decks).

[Moxlotus]

You don't really have an option other than going for it with that hand.  What are you going to do, sit around for 10 turns until you can do something else and hope you're not dead?

[Diaonic]

Diaonic wrote:

I had a similar scenario that blew up in my face. My hand was:
Ritual
Ritual
Defense Grid
Doomsday
Force of Will
Brainstorm
Delta

I played delta, fetched swamp. I cast ritual played defense grid with 1 b floating.

He forces, I force back, he misdirects my fow onto itself.

I cast the other ritual, he ancestrals. I play doomsday, he forces.

I cried.

Sorry to be a little off topic- but with all the talk about how bad T1 players are I have to bring this up. That play is illegal a spell can not target itself.

There is a way to do what he wanted to, in fact there are two different ways for him to get the job done. But what he did is not one of them

Sorry I was not clear; he did misdirect fow onto his misdirection. In retrospect, that hand / game didn't matter anyway because it was a misplay by me trying to "go off" to early. Hindsight's 50/50 when you’re not piloting this deck.

The biggest problem with this deck is you are trying to cram the entire game into one turn with 5 cards. If you don't know all the variables that go with that turn, it can go horribly wrong.

[bebe]

The biggest problem with this deck is you are trying to cram the entire game into one turn with 5 cards. If you don't know all the variables that go with that turn, it can go horribly wrong.
_________________

I played Doomsday this weekend and lost everfy match 2-1 ... no kidding. Now I know I'm not Steve but all I faced all day was Tog, Oath and Fish. Now there were Trinis and Workshops everywhere, I just did not draw those decks.

Yes, you have to cram everything into one turn and you need to set up search and counters/disruption to go off. I lost to Tog when he had both an FoW and Annul in his hand despite having played out a Duress and a Xantid Swarm that match ( he wished for a Smother to get the Xantid).

I lost to Fish because he countered every tutor and just did what Fish does - play the tempo game until he can win. Once thew damage adds up it becomes more difficult to fetch, Vamp and Doomsday with Lavamancers facing you.

I lost to Oath when they twice got Oath out turn one and I needed three or four turns to go off.

I also lost once when I just miscounted the stack and did 18 points of damage.

The discussion was not about Doomsday in particular though. The criteria of when to be aggressive and when to hold back becomes more crucial as the fundamental turns speed up.