touching your opponents deck

[maddux31]

at a local tournament today, someone went to search there opponents library via rootwater thief, and their opponent said that your not allowed to touch someone elses deck except for something like cutting, and proceded to lay his deck out on the table.  Is this true?

[Komatteru]

I've never heard of such a rule, but it seems to extend more to etiquette and respect for some else's property.  For example, I have a lot of nice rings, and people ask to look at them.  When I extend my hand, they don't tear the ring off, they just look (I usually take it off so they can get a better look).  When you give something of value for someone to look at, most people are very careful with it and handle it gently.  Since cards are something of value, most players extend the same care toward an opponent's cards as they might to a piece of fine jewellery (or their own cards). It's just not respectful to pick up an opponent's deck and start rifling through it, even if the game rules say you can, just like it's not polite to rip a card out of an opponent's hand if you Duress.  I guess you might be able to call over a judge and claim something like your opponent is being disrepectful to your cards, but I don't know if you would get anywhere.

I personally never touch an opponent's cards unless given permission to do so, since I want the same courtesy extended to me.  If I get to search his library for something, I wait for him to present his deck to me, just like I would wait for him to present after shuffling.  If I Duress, I wait for him to put his cards down or hand them to me.

[maddux31]

I wouldn't consider it disrespectful as long as your gentle and not damaging the cards.  I think it would be a lot easier and faster to be pick a card if you are holding the deck then to have your opponent  deal it out on the playing surface.

[Komatteru]

No, no, I meant reaching for an opponent's deck or hand is disrespectful.  It's ok when he hands it to you or otherwise gives you permission, but reaching over and grabing it is what I consider disrespectful.

Meanwhile, back on topic, if a player doesn't want his opponent to touch his cards, I guess that's his perogative.  It might be considered stuck up, but they are his cards and if he doesn't want someone else to touch them, I'd say it's within his rights.  I can't see that fanning out the deck on the table would take terribly much longer than an opponent having to fumble through it.  In fact, if the cards were spread out right (so you could read all the names), it might even be faster.

[Trollstorm]

can you ask a judge to cut for your opponent? I sometimes refuse to shake my opponent's hand after a match because I fear they are covered in germs.

[Toad]

It's just not respectful to pick up an opponent's deck and start rifling through it, even if the game rules say you can

Excuse me, but that is bullshit. If I'm using Rootwater Thief and my opponent refuses to give me his deck, I will always call the judge and the judge will always rule in my favour. This is not a question of respect and such, It's a question of game procedure. And If my opponent is not willing to let me search through his deck after the judge told him to let me do so, I'll probably get some Warning for Unsportsmanlike conduct.

[Komatteru]

Excuse me, but that is bullshit. If I'm using Rootwater Thief and my opponent refuses to give me his deck, I will always call the judge and the judge will always rule in my favour. This is not a question of respect and such, It's a question of game procedure. And If my opponent is not willing to let me search through his deck after the judge told him to let me do so, I'll probably get some Warning for Unsportsmanlike conduct.

Man, I'm just on a roll of not being understood.  I guess I have to spell out exactly what I mean because apparently I haven't been clear enough (I sure hope I don't need to make pictures next):

Player A attacks with Thief and pays two to activate its triggered ability.  Player A immediately reaches over across the table, perhaps getting out of his seat because the deck is just out of normal reach, and picks up his opponent's deck and starts searching through it.  The opponent never gets a word in.

That's not respectful.  I refuse to believe for an instant that you don't get upset when your opponent grabs at your hand after a Duress or snatches at cards after he casts like Hymn to Tourach.

As for game procedure, the opponent spread the deck out on the table, which is allowing the opponent to search through it.  He didn't say "No, you don't get to look, name a card."  I have no idea where you got the "refuse to give his deck" from.  I can't find it.  He simply didn't want his opponent rifling through his deck.  He placed the contents of the deck face up on the table.  There are things that can go wrong if you hold a deck in hand and leave through it: you can drop a card onto the floor and smash it with your chair as you move to get it, you could drop a card and damage the corner when it lands, whatever.  Those things are unlikely, but could still happen.  If a player wants no possibility of that happening with his cards, fine.  Is he being ridiculous?  Yes.

[DEA]

this kangeroo court finds in favour of jdizzle

the first guy to pick up my deck without my permission will be picking his brains off the floor

:lol:

it's true
what if your opponent is a malicious, dirty, unwashed and smelly son of a bitch? do you REALLY want someone like that touching your cards?
heck, i wouldn't even want to play someone like that
thankfully i play t1, so people like that usually stick to their t2

[Jebus]

You guys can extrapolate this all you want with specific "what if" scenarios.

The bottom line:  Don't impede gameplay.

If you can resolve this issue in an alternative manner without slowing things down, that is fine.

Do NOT get physical.  The results will not end up good for you.

And no more of this Type 1 vs. Type 2 BS.  It's highly unnecessary.

[Toad]

As for game procedure, the opponent spread the deck out on the table, which is allowing the opponent to search through it.  He didn't say "No, you don't get to look, name a card." (...) He simply didn't want his opponent rifling through his deck.  He placed the contents of the deck face up on the table.  

I find this to be a disruptive action from the opponent. He is slowing down the game because of stuff that are not related with the game. If I had to judge this, I would give a warning for unsportsmanlike conduct to that player and force him to give his deck to his opponent.

There are things that can go wrong if you hold a deck in hand and leave through it: you can drop a card onto the floor and smash it with your chair as you move to get it, you could drop a card and damage the corner when it lands, whatever.  Those things are unlikely, but could still happen.

This is not a good reason. It IS impeding game play.

[jpmeyer]

Here's one for the judges:

If my opponent just snatches my deck and starts looking, can I call one of you guys over and get him called for procedural error: major (since I haven't even passed priority, but I could argue that now he has knowledge of what's in my hand so he can't be able to make an unbiased call to whatever effect I have in response) as well in hopes of getting him a game loss?

[Toad]

Here's one for the judges:

If my opponent just snatches my deck and starts looking, can I call one of you guys over and get him called for procedural error: major (since I haven't even passed priority, but I could argue that now he has knowledge of what's in my hand so he can't be able to make an unbiased call to whatever effect I have in response) as well in hopes of getting him a game loss?

It depends on how long your opponent waited before he touched your deck. A long silence is often considered as an implicit pass in priority. Note that you could also be given a warning for unsportsmanlike conduct in this situation since the judge can consider you are openly calling for a sanction.

[Jaapmans]

Here's one for the judges:

If my opponent just snatches my deck and starts looking, can I call one of you guys over and get him called for procedural error: major (since I haven't even passed priority, but I could argue that now he has knowledge of what's in my hand so he can't be able to make an unbiased call to whatever effect I have in response) as well in hopes of getting him a game loss?

It depends on how long your opponent waited before he touched your deck. A long silence is often considered as an implicit pass in priority. Note that you could also be given a warning for unsportsmanlike conduct in this situation since the judge can consider you are openly calling for a sanction.

If you would give me this kind of bullshit, I'd hand you a stern lecture and an unsporting conduct severe, downgraded to a match loss.

Players trying to trick their opponent into this kind of rules bullshit don't even deserve the chair they're sitting on. Unfortunately there's still a small group of players that considers this kind of behavior as "smart".

Well, trust me. I'd love to run into those players and see where "smart" gets them.

Jaap

[Nibble]

Re: the original post.

I'd be more concerned about this for a different reason altogether. As far as I know, any player's library is considered a non-public zone, even to the owner of the library. By laying his deck on the table face-up, he's giving himself access to a zone he shouldn't be looking at when no card has given him permission to view it. I know it's not usually a big deal for a player to look at his own library, but you can't just pick up your deck, look through it, and shuffle it anytime you want, can you?

[Jebus]

Re: the original post.

I'd be more concerned about this for a different reason altogether. As far as I know, any player's library is considered a non-public zone, even to the owner of the library. By laying his deck on the table face-up, he's giving himself access to a zone he shouldn't be looking at when no card has given him permission to view it. I know it's not usually a big deal for a player to look at his own library, but you can't just pick up your deck, look through it, and shuffle it anytime you want, can you?

That shouldn't be relevant.  The deck will be shuffled anyway and he knows what cards are in his own deck.

[jpmeyer]

Yay.  h8 rules lawyers

[Robert the Swordsman]

I had a Beta Mox Pearl stolen from me a bit over a year ago at a small Power tournament because someone cast an Extract against me and palmed the card while they were looking through my library.

Since that event, I've been rather uneasy when it comes to someone picking up my deck and looking through it.

If such were to occur (it hasn't since then), I wouldn't be too thrilled with a judge forcing me to hand my deck to my opponent.

Whether or not it is a legal action in a tournament, please be careful.