Regretful Tutor

[orgcandman]

I was thinking about tutors, draw7s, etc, and someone said that the line between too good and not good enough was thin, so I thought, what safely treads this line. I came up with...

Regreful Tutor
1B
Sorcery
Target player, other than you, searches your library for a card. That player reveals it and you put that card into your hand. Shuffle your library.

NOTE that your opponent does not get to see your hand, so would most likely choose something like a basic land, or a spell that he/she would think to be dead. At worst, it's a sylvan scrying for black, which may warrant re-organizing the cc to GB, if people think that it will be primarily used to grab lands. I was thinking in situations where people played emperor or other multiplayer games where it might be beneficial, and could be almost a functional DT, but could also lead to player allies/enemies relationships forming. I used "Target player, other than you," to make sure it worked always in multiplayer as well as single player, however, if people think that this is unneeded, then it can be taken care of.

As always, if this looks like it would be boring/uninteresting, let me know.

Current Wording:
Regretful Tutor
B
Sorcery
Search your library for 5 cards with different names. An opponent chooses one of them. You may pay B. If you do, that opponent chooses a card not already chosen for Regreful Tutor. You may repeat this process any number of times. Put the last card chosen into your hand and remove the remaining cards from the game. Shuffle your library.

[Upinthe]

I think it ought to be target opponent, otherwise it simply becomes Demonic Tutor in team games...

[Limbo]

I think it ought to be target opponent, otherwise it simply becomes Demonic Tutor in team games...

That would make it really weak though...

I think it can be balanced with an additional casting cost or something. Or even go really weird, and turn it the other way around:

Regretful Tutor
1B-Sorcery
Search target opponents library for a card and put it into his hand. Shuffle his or her library afterwards.
Somewhere the ritual went wrong - Ashi, Cabal Apprentice

[Jacob Orlove]

This is really bad. It's strictly a multiplayer card, and even then it's only really good in team games. In regular magic, playing this is awful, because it always gets your very worst card, at a cost of 1B.

[orgcandman]

I guess if people think that this isn't useful, or interesting, then it can be closed. My only arguments to Jacob's are:

* It's not card disadvantage
* The fact is, it's 1 less card in your deck, essentially
* Depending on what is left in your deck it has the potential to be mediocre
* In multiplayer it's good.
* It's not overly broken
* It's a weak tutor


If people don't think that this merits any discussion, then by all means, close it.

[Jacob Orlove]

* It's not card disadvantage

It really is, though, because the card you get isn't going to be as good as a random card from your deck (which this would have been if you weren't running it)

* The fact is, it's 1 less card in your deck, essentially

Which is somewhat less of an advantage than even pitching to Force of Will.

* Depending on what is left in your deck it has the potential to be mediocre

Not really. If you can play enough amazing cards that this will always get something good, then you should be cutting this for more good cards. Also, it'll never get land when you really need the land.

* In multiplayer it's good.

Sure, but is that enough reason to make the card?

* It's not overly broken

It suffers from the opposite problem.

* It's a weak tutor

It's not a tutor at all, since you'll never get what you want.

Also, since they get to see your entire deck, they should be able to figure out most of your hand.

There might be a way to make this concept interesting ([card]Guided Passage[/card] was close), but I don't think this is it.

[Upinthe]

How about making it so you can pay B each time to make your opponent choose a different card like [card]Forgotten Lore[/card]. Also it should be nonland cards only.

[Bahza]

Maybe it would be good as a random Tutor.

Regretful Tutor
1B
Sorcery
Shuffle your library, then put the top card of your library into your hand.

Might be kinda interesting.

[Jacob Orlove]

Maybe it would be good as a random Tutor.

Regretful Tutor
1B
Sorcery
Shuffle your library, then put the top card of your library into your hand.

Might be kinda interesting.

How is that different from:

Lame Cantrip
U
Sorcery
Shuffle your library, then draw a card.

[Matt]

I already used that design space, and better too, on Dread Portal.

[orgcandman]

what if it would force the opponent to search for 3 non-land cards with
different names, and you chose one and put it into your hand, and the other
two were removed from the game?

It's like a weak intuition, that's cheaper, and still has a "tutor" effect.
Basically, your opponent chooses what he/she feels is the worst three cards
you can have.

[Guardian]

Do we really need a new tutor that nobody will end up using? Each card I have seen in this set is usable, even if a little narrow sometimes. This set is no Prophecy, so maybe we should ask ourselves:
Is my card something we really need?
Is it remotely good?
Is it flavourful?

Your tutor is not good nor flavourful. I have nothing against you, but this is leading nowhere I think. If a mod feel this post is flame magnet, by all means delete it and let me know. I'll present any necessary excuses.

[orgcandman]

this started as an experiment to try and create a balanced tutor. As it looks like a lot of people have too much baggage/mixed emotions/whatever and don't really want to look at it, I guess this thread can be locked.

[MrZuccinniHead]

nake it search for a non-land that way the opponent has to give you some kind of spell.

[Guardian]

As I see it right now, the best idea comes from upinthe. The Forgotten Lore mechanic for nonland is pretty interesting. It would retain the ability that you do not exactly choose what you tutor for, but it gives you some flexibility if you can pay for it (this is very black by the way).

Maybe something like:

Political Bribe
B
Sorcery
Reveal your library to your opponent. He chooses a nonland card in it. You may pay B. If you do, that opponent chooses a nonland card not already chosen for ~this~. You may repeat this process any number of times. Put the last chosen card in your hand.
Some kind of flavour text

It would retain the original flavour and yet be flavourful as it is:
1) The exact opposite of color.
2) Same mana cost, same alternate cost.
3) Search the library instead of graveyard.

I believe that's what we should work on.

[Jacob Orlove]

It'd be interesting if the unchosen copies were removed from the game. That way, you couldn't use it to get a setup spell in combo without the risk that they'd rfg all your kill conditions first.

[Guardian]

Jacob, since you have to invest mana to cycle through the cards opponent choose, I believe removing them from the game is not necessary as you may not have the mana to cast it right now. If we change the cost from B to "pay one life", then removing it from the game becomes necessary as ressources would be available to cast the spell.

I also made a great mistake: I forgot to add the "shuffle the library" part, so it would become:

Political Bribe
B
Sorcery
Reveal your library to your opponent. He chooses a nonland card in it. You may pay B. If you do, that opponent chooses a nonland card not already chosen for ~this~. You may repeat this process any number of times. Put the last chosen card in your hand. Shuffle your library afterward.
Some kind of flavour text

[Marco]

Having used the Forgotten Lore mechanic on one of my black cards (Tyrannize), I'd have to say that I like the "Political Bribe" suggestion, even if it doesn't seem particularly strong. When your opponent has 30+ cards to choose from, how much black mana (or life for that matter) are you going to have available to make him choose another card until he chooses the card you wanted him to choose in the first place? Forgotten Lore worked because you generally don't have as many cards in your graveyard, or you can manipulate the number of cards in your graveyard more easily.

[Komatteru]

Perhaps you could do something like this:

Political Bribe.
B
Sorcery
Search your library for 5 cards and reveal them to an opponent.  He or she chooses one of them.  You may pay B.  If you do, remove that card from the game and your opponent chooses another card from those remaining.  Otherwise, put that card into your hand.  Remove all the remaining cards from the game.  Shuffle your library afterward.

This makes it more like the Forgotten Lore mechanic, but makes it more interesting and usable.  You will get something you need for somewhere between 1-6 mana.  This also makes you think about when you want to use this, as you probably don't want to search for 5 card you really really need and have 4 of them get removed from the game.  You should be able to get what you need for about 3 mana if you choose carefully and the cost of having 4 cards removed from the game.

The way I have it there, the remaining cards need to be removed from the game (or put back into the library, but I think it needs to be more painful to cast if you could potentially get a bomb for B) and not put into the graveyard.  That just makes it a fourple Entomb, which is really outrageous.

The only thing I fear is that this is far too much like Intuition or Gifts Ungiven and the whole have opponent choose cards from a set is too much of a blue ability.

However, there needs to be a way to limit what an opponent can choose from, otherwise it'll not only take forever to resolve this, but it also is rather weak.

[orgcandman]

I like the set limiting, and was thinking about something like:

Regretful Tutor
B
Sorcery
Search your library for 5 cards with different names. An opponent chooses one of them. You may pay B. If you do, remove that card from the game and your opponent chooses another card from those remaining. Otherwise, put that card into your hand. Remove all the remaining cards from the game. Shuffle your library afterward.

I think it's ok to have bleed over of this mechanic from blue to black, as we know that both blue and black have the tutoring ability. Having the opponent choose, I think, is good from a flavor standpoint. What would be the thoughts on something like this?

[orgcandman]

*bump after editing current wording*

I think that it's pretty decent now. Clock maybe?

[Jacob Orlove]

You have two parts where you say to remove cards from the game. There should be a good way to consolidate that and reduce the amount of text.

[orgcandman]

*bump after edit*
What are the thoughts now? Is it good enough that it will see some play? Is it trash?

Aaron

[Godot]

Current Wording:
Regretful Tutor
B
Sorcery
Search your library for 5 cards with different names. An opponent chooses one of them. You may pay B. If you do, that opponent chooses a nonland card not already chosen for Regreful Tutor. You may repeat this process any number of times. Put the last card chosen into your hand and remove the remaining cards from the game. Shuffle your library.

I feel really outta my element posting here, but theres a first time for everything I guess.  

Is the nonland condition supposed to be in this version or is it an artifact left over from an earlier incarnation?  If its supposed to be there then it feels kinda awkward.  For instance, you cant tutor for lands unless you get 5, but then you cant employ the whole bribery aspect and lose complete control over what you get.  It also becomes incredibly strong in multicolor decks since you basically get a Demonic Tutor for BB, which may make the card too powerful.

[orgcandman]

that was a c/p mistake. I'll fix it.

[Guardian]

Would it be too powerful if the cards went in the graveyard instead of being RFTG? I know it has super synergy with Yawgmoth's Will, but I believe if you tutor for Will, you will end up paying BBBBB for it so it is not really an issue because if you can pay such an amount of mana, you deserve to win. If I forgot a point, please, help me out.

Another thing I don't like is the name of the card. This should really be a bribe because it's like: I can offer you something else, but you're going to pay for it.

[Jacob Orlove]

Putting them into the graveyard would make this a super, uber entomb. It'd only take BBB to set up a win by getting gorger, laquatus, animate, dance, necromancy, and there'd be a million other ways to abuse it, too. RFG is the only way to go here.

[orgcandman]

echoing what jacob said, RFG is the only way to go.

Regret == remorse, sorrow

I think it's not really a bribery sort of thing, more of a pleading sort of thing.

"PLEASE pick the card that I want!" not "If you pick the card that I want, you get something!"

clock?

[Guardian]

Hey!
It's not my card, but I'm sure as hell that I like this one, so I'm gonna ask orgcandman to call the 24h clock!!!!