U/W aggro- A solid 5 proxy deck?

[Bulls on Parade]

Porting tech from other formats is awesome. I just threw the deck together on MWS after playing against something similar, but so far it's really handling the gauntlet to my satisfaction. The sheer volume of little synergies is so awesome; I really think this is the direction to take an established (hated) archetype. List first, explanations after:

4 Aether Vial
4 Meddling Mage
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Standstill
4 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
2 Exalted Angel
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Seal of Cleansing/unhappy with this slot
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Faerie Conclave
1 Adarkar Wastes
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Plains
3 Island
SB:
Serenity?
BEB?
Tormod's Crypt?
Stifle?

I haven't really shored up the weak matchups enough to put together a decent sideboard, but I'm sure some of you guys who've had experience with Standstill decks can help out in that area.

I'm overall really happy with a lot of card choices, so I'm going to start with those exceptions that I'm not 100% sold on:

Samurai of the Pale Curtain- At first, WW in a deck with Factories and Conclaves didn't bother me so much because of Vial. Although it's a cool idea, I'm starting to have second thoughts.

Seal of Cleansing/etc. slot- I wanted it to be a creature, so I filled it with Kami of Ancient Law, later re-reading it to be extremely disappointed (because it can't take out Artifacts, obviously). I really like Seal of Cleansing with Standstill, but it's not a creature. Stern Proctor is bad, and I'm out of ideas.

Adarkar Wastes- I didn't want Polluted Delta, Conclave #4, or a Plains, so I went with this. There's probably something better out there.

Lack of Strip/Wastes- Is it feasible to squeeze them in, because of Aether Vial?

Lack of Misdirection- I'd really like to find room for 2.

Stuff I'm really happy with-
Aether Vial- Making this archetype playable, or at least bringing it close.

Exalted Angel- Gave the deck the mid/late game power I was looking for.


So far, all I'm testing really poorly vs. is fast Tendrils combo, and most Workshop decks game 1. Serenity turns shit around hard and I've been winning the matches I played out to 3 games. I'd imagine fast, non-Workshop aggro will be tough (FCG).

Obviously I'm not trying to say this deck is going to take the format by storm at the next big event, but I really think it's a strong consideration for budget players heading to a 5-proxy tournament.

[jeek]

Gay Fish, and Gay/R, and Worse Than Fish all work on similar concepts...

Mana Denial via Null Rod and Strips to slow down your opponent, and beat down with cheap efficient creatures while they try to recover. Maintain card advantage via Curiosity and/or Standstill.

Gay Fish worked while blue control decks were big because of the severe unblockable beating it could throw out against these decks while keeping them from winning. It slowly evolved into Gay/R, which could theoretically slow down control or and the growing number of combo enough to weasel out a win. Worse Than Fish added Root Maze as an additional means to slow down the opponent.

Your deck seems to do none of this, leading me to wonder if it's fast enough to deal with many other decks in the field. Could you give a bit more of your testing results? I'm curious to see how your deck fares against the current Decks to Beat.

I guess my uncertainty about your deck is due that it looks like a stall-aggro deck without the stall.

[Anusien]

Countermagic beyond Force of Will is pretty hot.  I'd look at Daze, Misdirection or Mana Leak at the very least.  Otherwise you have trouble capitalizing on tempo.

Exalted Angel is pretty bad in any tempo-based deck because you're not going to be able to reliably cast it, and you don't want to waste two complete turns on her.  That hurts your tempo, and you can't reasonably protect it.

Aether Vial isn't really going to do you much good, you're only powering out on-color 2 drops.

You need more early beaters to put the pressure on to capitalize on your tempo gains.  Cloud of Faeries is pretty good.

Double white creatures in a blue base, especially with no evasion and bad abilities (Samurai) is not good.

Okay, this is basically a round-about way of agreeing with Jeek.  You're like a tempo deck that has no way (Wasteland, especially + Crucible, Null Rod, Countermagic) to capitalize on tempo gains or to gain tempo.

[Batle]

I'm pretty sure the guy you played was me. I made this deck some weeks ago, but it's nothing like this though, it uses Vial to make broken playes, and giving the fish deck an element of suprise. That Exalted angel is just bad, and I would never play samurai in main. I also think the seals could be replaced with somthing better.

[kill doug]

Countermagic beyond Force of Will is pretty hot. I'd look at Daze, Misdirection or Mana Leak at the very least. Otherwise you have trouble capitalizing on tempo.

Yes I agree with daze but only if he adds at least 4 wastes effects. Misderection is a good idea, but leak is bad with only 1 or even 2 moxen.
Also i think your over looking the fact he has 4 void mage and meddling mage that he can drop at instant speed with vial.

RULES QUESTION: If mage is dropped in responce to a spell being cast naming the spell that was cast does it resolve.

Double white creatures in a blue base, especially with no evasion and bad abilities (Samurai) is not good.

Yes this is horrible maybe try that 2/2 dog from kamigawa or Beloved Chaplain pro creatures can block some big fat.

4 Aether Vial
3-4 Meddling Mage (depends on my rules question)
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Standstill
3 Voidmage Prodigy
2-3 Beloved Chaplain(depends on my rules question)
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
4 Curiosity
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Seal of Cleansing/Daze/Misderection
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl  
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Strip Mine
3 WasteLand
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Island
SB:
4 Aether Spellbomb
2 BEB
2 Stifle
4 Serenity
1 Swords
2 Echoing truth

[Ender]

RULES QUESTION: If mage is dropped in responce to a spell being cast naming the spell that was cast does it resolve.

Yes, it resolves, unless its a madness spell, which requires a bit more explanation.

[dromar]

ok. I know madness pretty well, cuz' I read the rules section, so here goes.

RULES QUESTION: If mage is dropped in responce to a spell being cast naming the spell that was cast does it resolve.


Yes, it resolves, unless its a madness spell, which requires a bit more explanation.

so here it is:

When the madness card is discarded,  the player can choose to remove it from the game. Then, when he/she gets priority, he/she may play the spell as an instant for the madness cost. If the player passes instead of playing the spell, it goes to the graveyard. Here's the quote from the rules:

Madness
Madness is a keyword that represents two abilities. The phrase “Madness [cost]” means “If a player would discard this card from his or her hand, that player discards it, but may remove it from the game instead of putting it into his or her graveyard” and “When this card is removed from the game this way, until that player passes next, the player may play it any time he or she could play an instant as though it were in his or her hand by paying [cost] rather than paying its mana cost. When the player passes next, he or she puts it into his or her graveyard.” See rule 502.24, “Madness.”

this is found in the Magic Comprehensive Rules, found here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=magic/rules/tourneyplayer

So, if you respond to them discarding it by playing the mage, and name the Arrogant Wurm, for example, they cannot play the spell when they next recieve priority. You MUST respond to the discard, otherwise they can play it when they get priority to respond to your aether vial activation.

I think I'm right, but it's a little confusing.


On the subject of Aether Vial, how is that working for you? It seems to me that it's too much like Skullclamp: worthless after the first, and sometimes just not fast/powerful enough for vintage. What do you do with Vials 2 through 4?

[Zherbus]

Exalted Angel is pretty bad in any tempo-based deck because you're not going to be able to reliably cast it, and you don't want to waste two complete turns on her. That hurts your tempo, and you can't reasonably protect it.

It has nothing to do with Tempo, this thing is just gonna be a old fashioned hand-clogger. Without acceleration, this girl is pretty rough.

[kill doug]

The more i think about it the more I like the tech of beloved chaplin-(To moderators i know this should go in a seperate topic but i think the people reading this topic would appreciate this more Thanx)--It vastly improves the workshop aggro match up, or at least makes them dig for a creature destruction card.

I really think this deck has potential, let me take a look at the two biggest threat in the meta right know. Which to me are stax and oath. (This is all based on my build that i posted before in the article, but for convenience here it is again. updated

3 Aether Vial
4 Meddling Mage  
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Standstill
3 Voidmage Prodigy
3 Beloved Chaplain
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
4 Force of Will
4 Curiosity
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Seal of Cleansing/Daze/Misderection
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Strip Mine
3 WasteLand
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra
1 Plains
2 Island
SB:
4 Aether Spellbomb
2 BEB
2 Stfile
4 Serenity
1 Swords
2 Echoing truth

Stax- The threat of first trini is always out there and theres nothing you can do but force it. By packing wastes to stop there shops for the turn after trini hits hurts them just as much if not worse then they you. That is do to the fact of man lands Having a mishra swing on turn 3 after 2 land go turns gives you a small advantage.(Very Small, but take what you can get people) Also naming key cards like crucible or win condition like karn, trike, or welder for meddlig mage is a severe blow or a life saver in the case of crucible. Plus if you run Seal of Cleansing main deck which i would in a major tornament means amazing protection from smokestax, wire or whatever. Also having an amazing sideboard if i do say so myself to completly wreck them with serenity (arguably better then flux, because the lack of it being Reb) Toss in the echoing truth to slow them down a turn and we have a good match.

Oath- This is were if meddilling mage resolves it means game over for mean deck oath :lol:. Ain't that B-E-A-UTIFUL. Also having 4 Force of wills 3 swords to plow shares , 2 seal of Cleansing, and a partridge in a pear tree. ( that deserves a 10 in my corny rating system) After board you got to anticipate that there siding in the angels so board in the spellbombs for Iridescent Angel and also win Pristine gets turned sideways also echoing truth for b2b . Swords I would even debate taking out but maybe leave 2 in to dig for if needed. Also with deck you can just about out race an angel with token man lands and the tech beloved chaplin.

Now that the articl has come full circle what is your ideas on the deck and do you think it has a chance?

[nataz]

The more i think about it the more I like the tech of beloved chaplin

Why in the world is that? I really don’t understand how it helps at all in either the stax or the oath match-up.

I would think that if you were trying to improve the oath match up, you would add in gilded drake for a creature. Akroma and SotN have flying, colossus has trample. What is a 2/2 pro-creature going to do in any of those cases? With the drake, you can at least vial (un-counterable I may add) it in to nab fat. Not to mention the hate that white can bring in anyways.

Same for the stax match-up, why do they care about a monk? Their fat is bigger, often times has trample, and their lock components don't care about it. Why not run something like stern proctor, or even the samurai guy. At the very least he prevents welding.

Also, this is an in general thing, do you really need the conclaves? Personally, I have always hated them, but looked at them as a needed evil. They are mana intensive, and CIPT. ouch. Normally you need them to capitalize on standstill, but now that you have vial, this should be much less of a problem.

It has nothing to do with Tempo, this thing is just gonna be a old fashioned hand-clogger. Without acceleration, this girl is pretty rough.

-Agreed. I really don't think this is a good idea with out drains or more acceleration.

Also, if anyone is still confused, Mage isn't a counterspell. It will never counter anything. Madness is the only thing that it can effect on the stack, and that’s because the mage enters play before the creature even goes on the stack. However, spiketail and voidmage are counterspells. <3


I've toyed around with a pretty different version of this in the newbie forum. I added red because I wanted to harp on the mana denial concept. Mox monkeys made me happy. I also added in waste + crucible for more of a stall. It’s not as much of an early lock as waste plus null rod, but I would say its much better in the late game.

The problem is of course, for all of these decks, is getting to the late game. Null rod enabled fish to knock your opponent off balance early, which you could then capitalize on. Aether Vial gives you the advantage at least a turn later. Its a powerful effect, but it could be that it just comes down two late. Both are forms of card advantage and positive tempo, I'm just still not convinced that vial is equal to null rod in fish's heyday. Vial may just give too many deck too much time.

I will say that in my testing vial didn’t have a problem with control of any sort. I did however have to devote a serious amount of SB hate to different workshop decks. I haven't even begun to test against combo.

All in all, this is an interesting idea, that at the very least I am having fun with. I'm so tired with playing combo, Control feel too boring or too swingy depending on the game state, I don't own shops, and quite frankly I just miss playing good ol' aggro control.

Anyways, good luck with this.

=-carter

[yodoblec]

I like the direction the deck can and will be taken. I've thought about adding Vial to Gay/r, but realized it'd be bad this deck would make abuse fairly easy.

I suggest you take out this:
2x Exalted Angel
3x Seal of Cleansing
3x Samurai of the Pale Curtain
1x Voidmage Prodigy

Add these in their place:
2x Daze
4x Cloud of Fairies
3x Gilded Drake ???

[kill doug]

@yodoblec & nataz The thing with drake is its dead 2nd and 3rd game aganist oath. Once they side in thier angels drake doesn't do anything. So your thinking is probaly to side them out, which then you thin out your creature base for differnt hate cards.

@nataz Beloved chaplin is more for the aggro shop match up then the stax or oath. Here is a shortend list of what your facing taken from  - Philip Schmitt

4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Trinisphere
3 Crucible of Worlds
4 Juggernaut
4 Su-Chi
3 Razormane Masticore
4 Goblin Welder
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard
4 Red Elemental Blast
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Lava Dart

Now after that you don't think Chaplin would annoy them a little by blocking a 5/3 jug or 4/4 Su-Chi turn after turn until Masticore hits. Which is the only way to remove it maindeck. Also notice the amazing number of trample creatures. I think it adds up to ZERO .

The name of the game with fish is to stall and Chaplin does this well. Is it great, no but it is good enough to try.

[Zelc]

Masticore is a creature, so it can't kill the Chaplain either.

All in all, though, the Chaplain is just awful in T1.  It's a 1/1 for 2, which will cause you significant tempo problems.  Besides, it's only useful against a couple of archetypes.

[yodoblec]

It's a 1/1 for 2

As with 2 other creatures in the deck. This card won't hurt your tempo if you drop it turn 2 vs. shop-aggro, but vs. many other decks it will hurt your tempo plenty.

[Zelc]

The other 1/1's for 2 have a useful ability as well.  Beloved Chaplain only acts as a Maze of Ith against creatures that don't trample if not attacking.

[kill doug]

@Zelc

Maze of Ith against creatures that don't trample

Yeah who whould ever use a bad card like maze of ith?

Also Cloud of faries a 1/1 for 2 Spiketail hatchling a 1/1 for 2 Grim Lavamancer a 1/1 for 2 get my drift.

@ Everyone-What would you replace it with white doesn't really have any strong creatures with abilities. I thought Chaplin would help win game one vs aggro shop.

The deck has enough hate for oath maindeck, and stax its has only 2 cards of hate in the main(my build) after sideboard though it drops serenity and wins fish style. The toughest match up in my opinion is the aggro match up which chaplin helps in. What other decks are you guys wooried about in your meta?

Edit: Sorry i didn't answer your Question before I'd go with 4 vials because the synergy with standstill.

[Brutha]

I have played W/U sometime ago. I found Weathered Wayfarer to be a realy good creature. The Abillity to tutor up Wastelands if your opponent drops more lands than you is realy good against all kinds of control.
Playing fewer lands would  also work well with Aether Vial i think.
It can also Tutor more Mishras against decks like madness.
It is also good after SB when you bring Maze of Ith in.

[Addolorisi]

I feel bad dropping such a short post in here, but I think I'll see how the discussion develops before making further comments.

Aether Vial isn't really going to do you much good, you're only powering out on-color 2 drops.

I take it you've never played with Vial? It powers out on-color 2 drops at instant speed for FREE.

And Grim Lavamancer is a 1/1 for R.