[Deck] Zoo. Updated and ready for budget play.

[HuntedWumpus]

A couple of weeks ago, I invited a friend of mine (long time magic player) to a local Vintage tourney. He replied with great interest but had no deck, and asked me to pull together a list. I inquired as to what he wanted to play. "something aggro, like zoo" he replied. After we concluded our lengthy discussion about why he wanted to play such a crummy deck I set off to build a deck that could compete with what I expected to see in our field.

My first thought was to incorporate the untapped skullclamp draw engine into the the deck. I mistakenly thought we wouldn't have much oath (west coast) in the field, and it has recently died off for the most part. I figured this deck needed the following.

1. STRONG beats.
2. Main deck answers to a workshop heavy meta.
3. A draw engine to prevent the deck from fizzling out.
4. Some nasty instant speed tricks.
5. Be good enough to actually be a contender.

With that in mind, here is the list. I will go through my choices later.

Hot Monkey Sex

4 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
4 Mountain
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
4 Waste
1 Strip
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Kird Ape
3 Goblin Welder
2 Caller of the Claw
3 River Boa
3 Eternal Witness
4 SkullClamp
4 Rancor
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Incinerate
2 Artifact Mutation
3 Price of progress


Sideboard:
2 Choke
2 Blood Moon/ Flame tongue Kavu
3 Null Rod
3 Tormod’s Crypt
3 Naturalize
2 Rack and Ruin

The beats:
4 Gorilla Shaman
4 Kird Ape
3 Goblin Welder
2 Caller of the Claw
3 River Boa
3 Eternal Witness
4 SkullClamp
4 Rancor

When I set out to pick my critters the first thing I had in mind was the beasts interaction with skullclamp; basically 1 toughness so that the engine can keep running of many of the creatures. Secondly the creature had to do more that tap and smash target face. The exception to this rule was of course Kird ape who is just broken for his casting cost. Most of the choices here are pretty simple, mox monkey eats moxen, attacks, and dies to clamp. River boa helps with control, has regeneration, and dies to clamp. Witness provides a good utility card, stiff beats, and  . . . dies to clamp.

The not so obvious choice of goblin welder was not actually my first pick. My goal with his slot was to have a CRITTER that helped to deal with opponents welders. My initial thought was mogg fanatic, but the slot evolved into welder for the following reasons. If i can keep my opponents welders dead, then my welder becomes a little silly, and my welder  . . . dies to skullclamp.


My last two critter slots were initially designated to bring some addition phat into the deck. I toyed around with call of the herd, and a few others until the interaction between clamp, or swinging with my mass army of dorks, and caller of the claw came into my mind. He has been superb to me, most commonly going off for 1-2 tokens after clamping.

The tools:
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Incinerate
2 Artifact Mutation
3 Price of progress

Here I basically wanted to include some basic removal spells and some serious threats to many decks. Right, so the bolts and incinerates (incinerate > chain, because of speed) take care of the removal aspect and add extra damage to the face of control, thus speeding up the clock. The main deck artifact mutations have served very well against workshops and such, they are pretty good against quick 7/10’s or 5/3’s and have superb interaction with skullclamp once the tokens have found their way onto the board.  Finally the price of progress’s are to good not to include in a deck with so few basic lands, and in a format that uses so many non basics.

Sooo?
Most of the TMD’ers are probably wondering why I have posted this funky little zoo build. I believe that this deck has some potential for those budget players out there. Hot Monkey as I affectionately call it, is prefect for 5 proxy events, and works fairly decent without the Jewelry for sanctioned or 0 proxy events.

Also, I have to say that since drafting this list up, I have put together a build for myself, because this is honestly one of the most fun deck to play I’ve seen in a long while. Now its no substitute for the upper tier vintage decks I prefer to play, but with fish in the gas chamber I thought this may provide a substitute for some budget players out there.

Enjoy? Questions? Dare is say discussion . . . No?

[+t]

Have you tested Lavamancer in the Welder slot? Lavamancer allows you to deal with a second welder, and also has some decent synergy with clamp (sac creatures, then remove them from ze game).

Troll Asthetic is a house, but I think it is really either him or Witnesses.  I doubt you would switch out Boa for him, because GG is kind of hard to get.  Plus, the boa is nigh unblockable v.s. control.

I have some major issues with Kird Ape.  Why not play another utility creature over it?  Kird Ape is SO 1997 (then agian, so is Zoo   ).  You seem to have enough beats that a "mindless beater" does not seem to be warranted.  Perhaps Sakura Tribe Elder?  It has cool synergy with Caller.

[HuntedWumpus]

Lavamancer fulfills the same slot as that mogg fanatic would have against welders. I tested him and found welder to be superior. On kird ape. There is need for a "mindless beater" that poses a serious threat to opponents and has a tendency to get very large.

[Doozer]

DuDe! I love Zoo and always wanted to build one and play it. But... I'm lazy. So, thanks but, what is your meta like? For me I took a wild new look at Zoo and added Blue. Guess wut? It works and well I must say. I tested it for a while,a list like yours, execpt with Force of will. If you want, try it. Watch TPS roll over and die. Also, the red will let you use REB in the sideboard. With all this being said, I guess you can tell my meta is controll based.

[exit music]

Hi,

Zoo is a  fun little deck -- alot like fish, but different in a few aspects. The draw engine is different, the creature base is different and the disruption base is different. They are the same, however, in how they plan on winning; disrupting the opponent enough to chip slowly away at their life total. Your build is interesting. It looks very different from traditional Zoo builds, but I don't know if the changes you have made are reflective of this metagame.

I don't think your creatures are good enough. Saying kird ape is too "broken" for what it cost confuses me a little bit. In standard right now it is not too broken to play a 2/2 for zero and it gets to being broken when you can play a 4/4 for zero. A 2/3, most of the time, for R does not seem at all broken -- not even in type 2, especially since it has no purpose other than beating down your opponent for 2 dmg per turn. In addition to that, it does not block/kill Juggernaut and it can be removed via swords to plowsheres. For a vanilla 2/3, I don't think kird ape is good enough to play anymore, especially when turn 1 or 2 Oath is not an uncommon play. I also don't really understand Caller of the Claw. It seems to me that the average clock of this deck would be turn 6, give or take. By this time, you would be lucky to have access to six mana sources. I'm assuming you included it because of its synnergy with skullclamp, but even in the best situation, but turn 6 or so, you could only really clamp 3 guys and then play it. That is nearly a game winning situation, but if you have clampable guys out that aren't needed for beating down your opponent or doing something else, I wouldn't want to hold them in play for hopes that I could play a Caller and get some mean 2/2 tokens. The maindeck Welder is a cute idea, but I don't know if it is entirely effective.

Your tools seem okay to me, although probably not perfect. At first, I disagreed with your choice of burn and I wanted to suggest the only burn spells seeing play right now: Fire/Ice or the ultra tech, Lava Dart. Fire/Ice doesn't really fit your game plan because you aren't really trying to pick of masses of dorks, you are trying to smash hard and fast. Lava Dart, on the other hand, works as an uncounterable way to kill Goblin Welder. Since Welder is such a menace at the moment, I thought you needed it, but you have lots of tools against Welder in the form of Gorilla Shaman, Bolt and Incinerate. Because there is also 5/3 creatures running around, I changed my mind and decided the 3dmg burn spells are superior.

I love the main-deck Artifact Mutations. They come in handy for almost every match, even something like fish's Crucible. I actually have no idea why you are not running an aditional 2 in the sideboard...

Is there any match-up where you would bring in Choke and NOT Blood Moon? Are you that worried about Mono Blue?

I would strongly advise the use of Ground Seal instead of Tormod's Crypt. Ground Seal is probably better in most matches except maybe some combo.

In fact, most of your sideboard seems a little bit strange to me... I don't think the fear of Enchantments is enough to scare you into using Naturalize instead of another utility artifact removal spot. With both 7/10 and 5/3 running around, both R'n'R and Artifact Mutation become your best tools. Naturalize is only "good" against Oath, and I don't even think that is true -- you should fight Oath's mana base in the form of Blood Moon, completely shutting them off from green.

Also, I could see you losing to T1 Trinishpere, so maybe adding Elvish Spirit Guide would help you out.

I'm sorry for the spiratic-ness of my suggestions; I think this deck could work, but little tweaks should be made.

DG

[timmy]

Hi
We've been working on a r/g beats  /  zoo deck for a while now.  A couple of things I might change with your deck.  Rancor is kinda situational, I would probably cut 2 of them for a couple more good creatures, maybe troll ascetic or river boa.
The one other thing I found out is that root maze in the main deck, when dropped turn one, is a house.  It stops most of the broken stuff other decks do.  The problem with zoo is that it can't go broke like most of the other decks in the format.  Rootmaze really helps this problem because its like saying, If I can't go broke then neither can you.

[MSR9889]

Pppfffff!!! Amatuers. My friends and I have been fine tooning R/G beats for quite some time now. Here is the deck list of my friend, who is the Weenie God.
Roscoe and Nates G/R Beats...

Creature
4 kird ape
3 gorilla shaman
4 river boa
3 red slith
2 skyshroud elite
2 evlish scrapper
1 druid lyrist
2 horned kavu

tools
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 incinerate
1 crop rotation
2 sylvan library
2 land grant
4 rancor
4 giant growth

Lands
4 tiaga
4 wooded foothills
1 windswept heath
1 mountain
1 forest
1 strip
1 waste
2 factory
1 barbarian ring

SB
1 scrapper
2 lyrist
2 waste
4 REB
4 HydroBlast
2 lava dart

Trust me on this, as I said, my friend is a Weenie God. Thats all he has ever played.  am also stealing Roscoes elf deck that is insanely fast, so look for my primer on it. PM me for more weenie tips.

[HuntedWumpus]

You are very arrogant, while I'm not even going to go into how bad your build is in comparison, I would appreciate if you simmer down if you want to participate in this thread. I posted this list in order to stimulate a little discussion about a decent deck for starting vintage'ers or players on a budget.

Trust me on this, as I said, my friend is a Weenie God. Thats all he has ever played. am also stealing Roscoes elf deck that is insanely fast, so look for my primer on it. PM me for more weenie tips.

If you had said this on AIM/IRC this would be a golden quote for the thread. Sadly you didn't.

Please don't mind him folks. Onto discussion.

maybe troll ascetic or river boa

If I were to put in Troll it would have been over terd ape, in the head smashing department. However Terd ape is a much easier first turn drop. Also with that said, the troll is a little mana intensive for the deck that likes to drop its critters cheap. When paying three mana my goal was to gain more than gust a critter ex. Witness and caller both have a little trick that goes along with him. However if your meta features a lot of STP's or fire/ice troll becomes an superior choice over some of my other critters.

[+t]

Lavamancer fulfills the same slot as that mogg fanatic would have against welders. I tested him and found welder to be superior. On kird ape. There is need for a "mindless beater" that poses a serious threat to opponents and has a tendency to get very large.

Against Welders, sure.  However, Velder does not deal with other random weenies.  Just a quick thought.

[[supa_t(im)]]

I like the idea, especially since I've been trying to build an effective R/G aggro deck for the past year.  However, how is this deck supposed to deal with the powerhouses of today's metagame?

The deck I used to play against a heavy fish meta:

4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 ESG

4 Kird Ape
4 River Boa
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Mox Monkey
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Rancor
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Magma Jet
4 Fire/Ice
3 Null Rod

SB
4 REB
4 Tormod's Crypt
3 Blood Moon
4 Artifact Mutation

Here is the discussion

For workshop you have artifact mutation, strip effects, burn, and troll ascetic would be nice as well.  With these things, Workshop aggro isn't an impossible mathcup.

For Fish, well, you have burn, and better creatures + strip effects, and troll is MVP here as well.  A good matchup.

For 4cC, I've found that the best thing you can do is attack their white mana and drop troll.  Blood moon helps here.  A hard mathcup, but I haven't tested enough.

Oath.  What do you do about oath?  You have hardly any strategy except for attacking their manabase, but their wall of counterspells makes things difficult.  A bad mathcup.

Storm combo eats you alive.  Nothing you can do about it.

Some changes to make it better in todays metagame:
MD more hate.
3 Blood Moon, and 2 Artifact Mutation should probably be MD.  This will improve at least game 1 of the Workshop match and can hurt Oath and 4cC.

SB pyrostatic pillar and possibly root maze to improve the storm combo matchup.  You should be able to drop pillar and one or two threats to be able to win and not kill yourself.

Change Magma Jet to Chain Lightning (jet was only in there because it was good against fish).

This leaves you with:
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Forest
3 Mountain
1 Strip Mine
4 ESG

4 Kird Ape
4 River Boa
3 Troll Ascetic
3 Mox Monkey
3 Grim Lavamancer

4 Rancor
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fire/Ice
2 Artifact Mutation
3 Blood Moon

SB
4 REB
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Root Maze
2 Artifact Mutation
1 Troll Ascetic

I've found the staying power of Kird ape definitely worth it.  Not many people will jump to use their precious removal on a meesly terd ape.  Although if you want more utility you could try mogg fanactic.

Troll Ascetic is just amazing.  He just doesn't die!  A real bomb versus control, and good beatsick to get out with rancor.

Grim lavamancer is really worth his three spots.  With the amount of stuff this deck dumps in the graveyard, he hardly runs out of fuel, and is a good threat with Pillar out.  I think he is definitely better than welder in this deck.  I mean with the amount of burn you are able to run, welder isn't gonna stay on the board long.

That is what I've come up with to be competitive in the current metagame, but I'm not sure its worth it.

Good Luck!!
Happy Deckbuilding!!

[exit music]

This deck needs to evolve. I'm convinced a bunch of these cards are only being included in here because they used to be included here, or they seem like they fit the nature of the deck. Making a good deck is not started like that at all.

Secondly, this deck is strictly a metagame deck. You could not try to play this everywhere because simply, you will lose. Combo is always going to beat you. You have almost no game against Doomsday or TPS or Meandeath. Comparing this style of deck to something like Fish, your disruption is much worse.

However, I think this deck could be successful in a metagame made up primarily of Workshops and Fish. The question here is, how much of the good cards do you want to cut to slightly improve the combo match?

This deck has been played out over and over -- you have tools to fight Artifacts. Rack and Ruin, Artifact Mutation, Gorilla Shaman, Burn to Kill Welders -- they do the job pretty well most of the time. You can fight Creatures too in the form of Bigger creatures, Rancor and burn.

The reason it did not become successful like Fish did is because fish is better at hating out more popular deck-types. It took down Tog and has good matches against against Combo too. Workshops are one of Fish's biggest weaknesses, so the with Workshop's increasing popularity in America, it is no longer an option.

Maybe if Combo takes a dive (not likely considering Steve's love affair with it), RG Beatzz will be able to win a Top 8 here and there, but because it doesn't use Force of Will, or other disruption against quick combo, I don't think this deck is viable in today's format.

dg

[Gray Ninja]

There is a card that can help the game against combo, though it may not be enough to win games on it's own.  Pyrostatic Pillar will be a serious pain for most storm based combo and can even push through enough damage to give Doomsday issues.  I think that a good combination of mana denial (Null Rod, Mox Monkey) and Pillar can certainly steal some games from combo.  The problem is that you need to board 4 to be sure you see it in your opening hand, otherwise Pillar will come down after they play out their artifact mana and a lot of it's usefulness will be killed.

[[supa_t(im)]]

@exit music
I kinda agree with you.  The deck has a good game against Fish and Workshop (unless the 3sphere hits first turn, then its kinda tough), but against combo its basically a lost cause.  Although if BM hits Oath, things can go your way, but that is a big IF.

@Gray Ninja
That is why my decklist includes 4 SB pillar.  If you are able to get this out first turn (which is possible) against combo, it can be devastating.  The problem is being able to get out the pillar first turn.  That is why I included another disruption piece, Root maze.  This should theoretically stall combo long enough to get out pillar.  Regardless, its still gonna be a hard matchup.

With all that said, it might be easier to add blue and go the WTF/r route.

[dicemanx]

When it comes to such weenie-strategies, there are really two options: either you go with an approach centered around massive damage and quick beats, or you try to be more aggro-control (in essence, a "hate" deck). The former approach works best in a mono-red burn/goblin deck, which packs 4 PoP, some Fireblasts, and maybe runs some artifact mana and Shrapnel Blasts. If you go the g/r route, you allow for the access to some pretty strong hate cards so it makes more sense to try to focus on a hate strategy instead. So what cards do we run then?

First lets start with the hate. Workshop decks and Oath decks are probably the biggest enemies of this archetype, so our best tools for the main deck are some combination of Artifact Mutations and/or Naturalizes, although Oxidize is certainly a consideration as well. I'd run:

3 Naturalize
3 Artifact Mutation

With one more mutation in the board.

Combo is another extremely difficult match-up, but we have at least three decent tools to fight such decks: Null Rod, Root Maze, and Pyrostatic Pillar, not to mention the REBs. Since combo isn't such a prevalent deck it might be best to relegate the Mazes and Pillars to the SB, but we can consider MD Null Rods as they will be useful against all of the upper-tier decks. So, let's try:

3 Null Rod

With 4 Root Maze in the SB, and maybe some Pillars as well.

Our hate can extend to our creature base as well. We can run creatures that will either act as creature removal (Grim Lavamancer and Mogg Fanatic) or as more artifact/enchantment hate (Goblin Vandal, Elvish Lyrist, Scavenger Folk). If we dip into the 2cc territory, we can consider Dwarven Miner to hate out non-basic lands, although he requires 3 mana to operate, and we might want to keep the casting cost very low (1-2 cc only). If the meta has appreciable amounts of Oath and Welder decks, I'd consider:

4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Mogg Fanatic
3x Gorilla Shaman
3x Goblin Vandal
3x Elvish Lyrist


The last component to consider is the aggressive part - how to best deal the 20 damage. Part of the damage will come from the utility creatures and from Mutation tokens already, and part of it will come from the obvious direct damage spells which will double as creature removal:

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
2x Incinerate

Only 2 Incinerate, so as to not create a bottleneck at the 2cc. Fire/Ice is also a decent inclusion.


So that's 35 cards so far. The mana base for such a low curve should probably be around 20-22. Lets try 21:

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Mountain
2x Forest
1x Mox Emerald (replace with Forest if budget)
1x Mox Ruby (replace with Mountain if budget)

This leaves four more slots in the deck. Possibilities include cards like PoP or Rancor (pure aggression, so probably not recommended), River Boa, Jackal Pup, or simply more hate. Skull Clamp is probably not a great idea in this kind of deck because it is very slow and you need to Clamp twice in order to actually generate any sort of card advantage. With a low mana curve, presence of Null Rods, and an abundance of (virtual) card advantage cards, we don't need to bother with Clamps.

I would add more burn and utility creatures personally. Here's my build then:

4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Mogg Fanatic
3x Gorilla Shaman
3x Goblin Vandal
4x Elvish Lyrist

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Incinerate
2x Fire/Ice

3 Naturalize
3 Artifact Mutation
3 Null Rod

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Mountain
2x Forest
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby


SB:
===
4x REB
4x Root Maze
2x Tormod's Crypt
3x Ground Seal
1x Artifact Mutation
1x Berserk Muldront


The SB doesn't contain Blood Moon as it is much too expensive and too slow for this deck, and it is not as effective against the majority of upper tier decks which pack plenty of basics these days. Pillars are absent as well since you cannot devote so much SB space against decks you won't see very often (combo). You'll simply have to hope that the REBs, Null Rods, and Root Mazes will be enough.

[[supa_t(im)]]

Interesting insight.

Would Viridian Zealot be better than Lyrist here?  It can be used the turn it comes into play, and beats for more.  The gg cost might get prohibitive though.  I'm not sure lyrist is even worthy of a 4 spot anyway.

I think Blood Moon is better than you make it seem.  If you include ESG and lotus then it comes out quickly.  It also hurts more decks than you say.  Fish has its man-lands and strip effects murdered.  Workshop has its workshops and friends taken out.  Oath has most, if not all of its green mana lost, making Oath nearly impossible.  Storm combo loses its ablitity to cast key spells like Duress, YawgWin, and ritual.  That is all the teir decks unless you include BBS.  It shouldn't be used alone, but in conjunction with other hate cards.

Does Null Rod hurt combo enough anymore?  I mean they don't necessarily have to use their moxen, just be able to play them to bump the storm count.  I think pillar would be better.  Although, it would be nice to be able to use both of them.

Maybe hate like this:
3 Blood Moon
2 Artifact Mutation
3 Null Rod

I don't think Naturalize fits because BM does a better job shutting down Oath.

Then creatures like this:
4 River boa
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Elvish Lyrist/Viridian Zealot

4 of the lyrist b/c of no naturalize.  River boa because he is such a house against control, and can chump block juggs no prob.  Only 3 grim because your other burn should be enough to keep creatures under control.  No goblin vandal because I think Rod and Shaman can do enough.

On to the utility cards:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rancor

Rancor because you should want to be aggressive in this deck.  Even with all the hate, you still want to give combo a fast clock, and also be able to kill a few fatties in combat.  Other burn just preference, although you could run Naturalize in place of some burn.

Then the manabase:
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

Equal basic count to allow for some green under BM.  ESG to gain some tempo advantage, and another warm body if needed.  Black lotus is needed for tempo advantage.  Why would you not include it?  Because of welder?  I don't fear welder with 8 direct damage spells, and 6 creatures able to kill him.

Leaving you with this:
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Forest
2 Mountain
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
3 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rancor

4 River boa
3 Mogg Fanatic
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Elvish Lyrist/Viridian Zealot

3 Blood Moon
2 Artifact Mutation
3 Null Rod

SB
4 Pyrostatic Pillar
4 Root Maze
4 REB
2 Artifact Mutation
1 ?

Pillar and maze to help deal with combo, because I think you need to have that much to beat it.  REB to help with control, and the mutation for the workshop.  Not sure what the 1 slot shoud be though.

I think dicemanx had some really good ideas, but those are some changes I think would be good as well.

[dicemanx]

I think Blood Moon is better than you make it seem. If you include ESG and lotus then it comes out quickly. It also hurts more decks than you say. Fish has its man-lands and strip effects murdered. Workshop has its workshops and friends taken out. Oath has most, if not all of its green mana lost, making Oath nearly impossible. Storm combo loses its ablitity to cast key spells like Duress, YawgWin, and ritual. That is all the teir decks unless you include BBS. It shouldn't be used alone, but in conjunction with other hate cards.

While this is all true in theory, this deck does have difficulty in ramping up to 3 mana, but the bigger problem is that it is difficult to resolve a turn three Blood Moon against the decks which it would hurt the most. There is virtually no way to get a Moon past Oath's massive amount of counterspells, and even a deck like Fish will have FoWs and Dazes to stop you. Furthermore, adding ESG to accelerate out stuff is very risky as you might either get stuck with too many mana sources, or not enough if you're swapping lands for ESGs.

Blood Moons work much better in fully powered control decks like Control Slaver.

Would Viridian Zealot be better than Lyrist here? It can be used the turn it comes into play, and beats for more. The gg cost might get prohibitive though. I'm not sure lyrist is even worthy of a 4 spot anyway.

Zealot is out because of the GG cost. Lyrist is quite essential, since the prevalent Oath decks are by far the worst match-up and pre-emptive Enchantment removal (to evade later counterspells once Oath hits the table) is gold. Without sufficient amounts of anti-Oath cards, you are essentially conceding game 1 to Oath and it hardly gets better game 2. Blood Moon, as I stated above, is not the best answer as it will likely never resolve, or it will eventually resolve but not in time.

Does Null Rod hurt combo enough anymore?

Null Rod still hurts combo quite a bit. They don't auto scoop to it, but it does slow them down enough for you to get to your other hate cards or deal enough damage to stop the Death Wishes/Doomsday.

I don't think Naturalize fits because BM does a better job shutting down Oath.

Like I said, BM is too slow, and Naturalize is much more flexible as it can take out both Oaths and problematic artifacts.

Rancor because you should want to be aggressive in this deck.

The deck does want aggressiveness, but mainly if doubles as hate/utility. Otherwise, as I said, something like mono-R is extremely aggressive (4 PoP, Fireblast/Shrapnel Blast) without the need for splashing of colors. I personally think it's not a good idea to mix the control/hate and aggressive strategies, because then you end up doing neither effectively.  

Rancor does remain an option and ultimately needs testing, but my instinct tells me it doesn't belong.

[[supa_t(im)]]

There is virtually no way to get a Moon past Oath's massive amount of counterspells, and even a deck like Fish will have FoWs and Dazes to stop you. Furthermore, adding ESG to accelerate out stuff is very risky as you might either get stuck with too many mana sources, or not enough if you're swapping lands for ESGs.

Well, I'm not swaping ESG for lands, so I still think they are a good mana accelerator.  They are there plus the moxen and lotus to get a turn 1 Blood Moon.  Besides if you argue that you can't get a BM past their counter wall, what keeps them from countering your naturalize.  I would rather play a spell that neuters the whole deck, not just hinders the combo for a little bit.

Zealot is out because of the GG cost. Lyrist is quite essential, since the prevalent Oath decks are by far the worst match-up and pre-emptive Enchantment removal (to evade later counterspells once Oath hits the table) is gold. Without sufficient amounts of anti-Oath cards, you are essentially conceding game 1 to Oath and it hardly gets better game 2. Blood Moon, as I stated above, is not the best answer as it will likely never resolve, or it will eventually resolve but not in time.

Yeah, I agree about zealot.  I did leave 4 lyrist in my build because I do think they are good against Oath, and even random dragon that pops up.  However, I do think that blood moon deserves a slot because it does hurt so many decks.  You CAN get it our first turn, and they won't be expecting it, so there is a good chance they won't have FOW.  Even if they do, you shouldn't say "don't play it b/c its gonna get countered." because you could say that about anything. Thats what blue control does, it counters stuff, you just have to grit your teeth and try again.

I agree Null Rod stays.

The deck does want aggressiveness, but mainly if doubles as hate/utility. Otherwise, as I said, something like mono-R is extremely aggressive (4 PoP, Fireblast/Shrapnel Blast) without the need for splashing of colors. I personally think it's not a good idea to mix the control/hate and aggressive strategies, because then you end up doing neither effectively.

Rancor does remain an option and ultimately needs testing, but my instinct tells me it doesn't belong.

Rancor can act as card advantage, and still is hate, hate against their life.  It doesn't matter if you can slow them down if you can't beat them before they go off.  Rancor helps you beat them quicker.  I guess it just doesn't feel right without rancor.  Although, it probably does require some testing before its an auto-include.

[dicemanx]

Even if they do, you shouldn't say "don't play it b/c its gonna get countered." because you could say that about anything. Thats what blue control does, it counters stuff, you just have to grit your teeth and try again.

This is true in general, but in this case you have to run cards that will stop their combo and get past their counter wall, so how easily your hate can be stopped by counters merits some serious consideration. Sure they can counter the Naturalize as well, although the Naturalize comes after they've tapped mana for Oath. Blood Moon has to hit *before* the Oath comes down, which means that they will have mana open. You could accelerate Moons with ESG and Lotus and the Moxes, although there are two potential problems with this. The first is access to the power; this probably isn't so serious due to the prevalence of proxy events. What's more serious is the need to devote more slots to ESG in place of business spells if you're not swapping them in for other mana sources. Unfortunately, I just don't see ESG meshing well with the rest of the deck, but at least its an option for people to consider. In this case, I'd actually give some thought, believe it or not, to 4 MD Moons with 4 Ancient Tombs and a Sol Ring. Then, to exploit the colorless mana, I would look into SB or MD cards like Crucible of Worlds and Defense Grid.

We are probably unlikely going to resolve this through a theoretical debate anyways, so all suggestions are worth examination. And yes, Blood Moon *is* a very powerful card against certain decks.

[[supa_t(im)]]

We are probably unlikely going to resolve this through a theoretical debate anyways, so all suggestions are worth examination. And yes, Blood Moon *is* a very powerful card against certain decks.

Agreed.

Also, since this deck is such a metagame deck then it may be better for one person to use one card over another.

That idea about the defense grid is interesting.  Crazy idea:  MD defense grid and naturalize over BM.  Then possibly SB Moon for more non-basic opponents.  Probably won't work, but interesting.

[exit music]

Crazy idea:  MD defense grid and naturalize over BM.  Then possibly SB Moon for more non-basic opponents.

So crazy -- I don't think this really accomplishes much because Defense Grid is primarily good against Oath. Not only do you need Defense Grid, but you need another card to deal with the Oath/Lands. Having a 2 card combo to deal with Oath seems really inefficient to me -- I'd rather run 4 Lyrists and some Naturalizes. Game 1, having 7 quick, direct answers to Oath makes my insides smile, plus 5 Wastes and Null Rod to shut down mana, Game 1 isn't unwinnable.

re: blood moon

I don't know why you are so insistant of including it in this deck. Yes, it is great against some decks -- playing a turn 3 Blood Moon against 4cc will probably win you the game if it resolves. Turn 3 against Oath, they will either have already played Oath and are probably beating you with an Akroma, or are untapped enough to coutner it w/ their huge counter presence. Against workshop, if turn 3 Blood Moon is your greatest tool, you will either be in the process of dying to Juggs or can't play anything b/c you are so locked up w/ Stax or Tanglewire. Blood Moon is a card w/ a powerful effect, but without consistant acceleration, there is not a point to running it.

re: combo

Null Rod is a step in the right direction, but I'm still really worried about it. Granted, there are a handful of cards that are effective against combo, nothing makes the match up favourable. Even Pyrostatic Pillar... say you resolved it turn 1 against Doomsday. They play Ritual, Doomsday. (-2) You play Lavamancer and Monkey. They draw, and combo you out.

Against Storm combo, it is better, but even then, it does not win you the game -- not even close. Against Dragon, it does virtually nothing, although you do have a set of Lyrists to shut them down.

@ dmx:

Your build is pretty tight. I love the creature base -- it seems to be able to deal with most things, although, as expected, you've given up some your best tools against Juggernaut and other aggro decks. Adding burn is okay, but, as much as it pains me to say, I think Rancor could be an effective tool in this space. In bad matches, it turns your shitty useless creatures into threats, or answers in Jugg's case. Another alternative is to have Troll Ascetic. Its mana curve might be too high to effectively deal with what we need it to though.

Artifact Mutation is one of my favourite cards; however, giving it a maindeck spot is not exactly what its purpose is. I would love to include it, but it only really has targets against Workshop-based decks. Fish could have Crucible, but Oath has no targets and combo has nearly no targets. I would consider running 2 of them, though, simply because of their huge tempo swing, but the 3rd should probably be switched to Naturalize.

Root Maze is effective against alot of matches to slow them down, so I would consider adding 2-3 of them to the maindeck with more sideboard.

Edit: I really would feel very good about this deck if Force of Will could be fit into it. Is there any way blue could be added to the mix? Is FoW good enough to make the deck work? I could see this build being successful in a Toronto field of Workshops and Oaths -- it's just the Random, Oath win or Trinisphere, Tangle Wire, Stax, Win...

dg

[[supa_t(im)]]

So crazy -- I don't think this really accomplishes much because Defense Grid is primarily good against Oath. Not only do you need Defense Grid, but you need another card to deal with the Oath/Lands. Having a 2 card combo to deal with Oath seems really inefficient to me -- I'd rather run 4 Lyrists and some Naturalizes. Game 1, having 7 quick, direct answers to Oath makes my insides smile, plus 5 Wastes and Null Rod to shut down mana, Game 1 isn't unwinnable.

Um. . .ok. . .I wasn't being serious about the defense grid. . .but I guess it didn't translate too well over the boards.

The point about BM is NOT to try to play it turn 3, but turn 1.  It is possible.  Maybe include Lotus petal and chrome mox?

But hey, natutralize is more versatile, and good against other decks that are too quick for Blood Moon, so what the hey, use naturalize.

I think if we add blue, we might just as well make WTF/r.  But just for kicks, lets try it (unpowered):
4 Volcanic Island
4 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Island

Critters
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Mogg Fanatic
4 River Boa
3 Gorilla Shaman
4 Elvish Lyrist

Spells
4 Fire/Ice
4 Brainstorm
4 FoW
4 Curiosity?
4 Lightning Bolt?
3 Null Rod

Thats just off the top of my head, so its probably complete jank.  It still looks like its going in the direction of WTF/r though.

@exit music
I think the point you brought up before about this deck not being viable in today's format is true.

[Veru_]

I wonder, would dryad work in here?

[[supa_t(im)]]

hey veru!

yeah, dryad would probably go in for boa.  I think the deck can poop out enough non-green cards a turn to make for a pretty large dyrad.

But isn't dryad also being used in WTF/r?

[Veru_]

But isn't dryad also being used in WTF/r?

So is curiosity, brainstorm, and FoW. Your point?

[[supa_t(im)]]

my point is why not just play WTF/r if you are basically using the same cards.  Its been tested with decent results; so why try to make a UGr deck that does the same thing if there is already one out there?

[HuntedWumpus]

WTF/r is a horrid deck right now so why talk about it. When playing a more aggressive game plan more direct pressure is put on the face of players in todays meta. By applying this pressure many decks are forced to deal with threats that immediately threaten their life total, such as rancor'ed beats. Also these builds have burn and bombs like Price of progress that provide powerful sources of key removal, or damage, as well as must counters for many decks.

Also, the skullclamp draw engine is better suited to an aggressive deck, not to mention being able to quasi "combo off" with a massive amount of draw in 1 turn (6 or so), that can often lead to  a win. I believe that properly constructed Zoo has a much better match against most of the decks currently.

I guess I could be wrong here because I don't play these decks in tourney, but I have powerless friends that do.

[ReAnimator]

Would hearth kami be good in here? it seems better than Goblin vandal or some other thing and it can kill stuff right away later in the game.

Hearth kami 1R
X, Sacrifice Hearth Kami: Destroy target artifact with converted mana cost X.
2/1

Now this is a crazy idea but it might work as it seems better than Rancor as it is way more versitile or still pumps your men;

Ashnods transmogrant  
1 cc
Oracle text:  T, Sacrifice Ashnod's Transmogrant: Put a +1/+1 counter on target nonartifact creature. That creature becomes an artifact in addition to its types.

Now obviously this doesnt work with null rod but i does make all your artifact kill creature kill as well and Artifact mutation turns into THE NUTS esp. vs Oath. And if your opp doesnt run creatures than you can just pump up your own guys.

Here is Dice's list modified to fit  the transmogrant and kami, I think that POP should be in here though as it is just huge vs a lot of decks

4x Grim Lavamancer
2x Mogg Fanatic
3x Gorilla Shaman
4x Hearth Kami
4x Elvish Lyrist

4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x PoP
4x Ashnods Transmogrant

3 Naturalize
4 Artifact Mutation

4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
4x Taiga
4x Wooded Foothills
5x Mountain
1x Forest
1x Mox Emerald
1x Mox Ruby

[martyr]

HAHAHAH!!!

That's lovely:

"I sac Ashnod's Transmorgant, making Spirit of the Night bigger and Artifact-ey."

"mm...kay...?"

"Artifact Mutation. Swing for 8. GG."

[Veru_]

tech

Whoa. That's a really neat idea.

It actually might be fantastic in some kind of welder deck that plays 'narch. That is, if you can get that deck to work.

[Fominian]

I love the idea of the Ashnods Transmogrant .

However, I am not so fond of Hearth Kami...

Though a 2/1 for 1R is not really that bad, its ability can become rather costly.

What I suggest instead is Viashino Heretic.  He may not be efficient at beats, but he can take a larger beating, he is reusable.  AND he adds insult onto injury

In comparison:

Lets illustrate with an artifact of a casting cost of 2.

Hearth Kami will cost two and a sacrifice to destroy it.

Where as Heretic costs two (1R) and a tap to destroy it.  Now on top of that, it will deal two damage it will do as well - its just plain good ol fun .

On another note: I am also supporting the idea of welder - reusable abuse of AT is always good (doesn't have to be a welder, maybe some method of returning the artifact from grave to hand, since AT does not cost an arm and a leg in the cc department).