U/R Fish 3 T8s but no finals...

[Crazy Pierre]

Hello all.

I have started playing Type 1 again recently. Our local stores have held proxy tournaments (5 free, $1 for each additional) and this has resulted in an influx of new players to the Vintage scene.

Our first big tournament happened shortly after Gen Con this year, and I wanted to build something budget that would be in my style, so I went with U/R fish. I took this version of the deck to the first tournament, and placed in my first of three consecutive T8s.

T8:
Tom Rotchadl
U/R Fish
4 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
3 Island
2 Mountain
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Curiosity
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Null Rod
3 Stifle
3 Daze
2 Crucible of Worlds

Sideboard
3 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Fire / Ice
4 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sigil of Sleep
3 Rack and Ruin

It did fairly well (4-0-1 Swiss, lost in quarters) but I found that the Sigil of Sleep in the sideboard were dead a lot of the time. I decided to remove them and replace them with 2 Maze of Ith and 1 Control Magic.

This was better, but I still had a lot of trouble with Workshop Aggro (Juggernauts being bad for my little dudes) and somewhat having trouble against the newly played Oath of Druids deck...for the second Power 9 tournament, I went with this build (removing the Control Magic):

4 Curiosity
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Null Rod
1 Firestorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Strip Mine
60 cards.

Sideboard:

4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Fire/Ice
2 Rack & Ruin
2 Maze of Ith
2 Extract

15 Sideboard cards

I took this version to a 4-1-1 T8 finish (Lost in quarters to Richard from Toronto playing a Crucible control build) at the Black Lotus tournament at Kool Kards Heaven.

I put in the Firestorm because I wanted a cheap, instant-speed sweeper that would let me push through some extra damage. The theory was that if I did a Firestorm for 3, I could kill 2 Juggernauts and deal 3 to my opponent (at the time, several Aggro Workshop builds were around, and since there were a lot of other budget builds, such as Food Chain Goblins, I needed a quick sweeper) and potentially win me the game.

The Sigil of Sleeps left the sideboard, to be replaced with 2 Extract and 2 Maze of Ith. At this tournament, EVERYONE was either going to be playing Oath, Trinistax or Workshop Aggro. I knew Oath would be my worst matchup, so the 2 Extracts would let me remove one of their threats early, leaving me with only one to deal with.

The Extracts proved invaluable. Against Oath players, I often played them turn 1 and removed Akroma or Spirit of the Night, and from there I had an easier time. Some builds played only one Darksteel Colossus, so once the Extract went off, I just had to carry the Faeries and Wizards home to victory.

I liked this build a lot. Since I'm never entirely happy with my sideboard, however, I did some minor tweaking for yesterday's event at Algonquin College (4-1-1 lost in quarters to Oath of Druids) for a Beta Walk and Workshop (1st and 2nd).

Maindeck:

4 Curiosity
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spiketail Hatchling
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Stifle
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Null Rod
2 Spindrift Drake
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire

4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Island
2 Mountain
2 Faerie Conclave
1 Strip Mine
60 cards.

Sideboard:

4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Fire/Ice
2 Energy Flux
2 Gilded Drake
2 Extract
1 Stifle

15 Sideboard cards

The Spindrift Drakes came in because I wanted some sustained pressure in the mid-game, and their upkeep wasn't too harsh. They proved excellent at adding on those extra 2-4 points of damage I needed.

The Rack & Ruins left the sideboard completely, as they were crap. I replaced them with 2 Energy Flux when I became aware of the large amount of TriniStax in the environment. Simply, Workshops suck when they need to pay for your upkeep costs. I rode the Fluxes to victory in two matches yesterday, backed up by Crucible of Worlds in one case.

The Gilded Drakes were meant to be a cheap way of swinging Oath matches in my favour. They actually won me the game against Cerebral Assassin, however. I ended up taking his Sundering Titan and beating him with it, how much fun is that! I did draw them against Oath as well, but they never resolved, unfortunately...

Now...I know Fish is on the decline presently, and I will likely experiement with another inexpensive deck in the future. I would like to know whether the addition of Voidmage Prodigy main is worthwhile. It would seem that they give you those hard counters you don't have outside Force of Will. I always avoided them because my draws often didn't allow for the UU mana cost, and I was hesitant to play with a morph in the deck as well (which would cost 3UU, 3 to morph, one to unmorph and one to sacrifice if needed).

The more I think about it, the more the Voidmages seem appealing, however.

I'm confident enough about the deck and metagame to know I can T8 with it in our local area (our T1 tournaments attract 45-60 people). I do want to add that extra OOMPH! to it to push it farther up the slope.

Any suggestions on improving the build?

Thanks,
Pierre

[jCoKn]

Congrats on your consistently high finishes Pierre. To address your main argument, the inclusion of Voidmage or no, it all depends on the metagame. I was there yesterday (I'm Jon... I gave you tips on how to beat Dragon in the T8)... and for that extremely heavy control environment the Voidmages would have certainly helped. If the meta was more like the one we had at KK where it was all workshops, Voidmages are usually dead, as you'll really never get up to (U)(U) just hanging around doing nothing. Also, If you do this I would suggest cutting a basic mountain and leaving a island in its place.

On another note, I think the Spindrift drake is not what fish is looking for. Fish likes having mana open for activating manlands, stripping lands, etc. and not have to have (U) tied up for something thats easily fire/iced. I guess it worked out for you so I won't argue, but that's just my two cents. Oh and by the way... methinks spawning pit > gilded drake for oath. Manlands can and will go the distance.

[Crazy Pierre]

Thanks for the tips there and here.

I will certainly look into Spawning Pit. It gives me an outlet to get rid of the spirit tokens after combat, and also lets me develop more 2/2s at a later date...and at 2 colorless, it's manageable.

I think you or someone had Echoing Truths for the tokens at one point, it's also interesting...Assuming they were willing to give you a token on their upkeep, can you sac it to the Pit in response so they cannot trigger Oath?

I'll cut the Spindrifts for 2 Voidmages next time...I'm not 100% sold on them, I just like having the extra punch in there.

Thanks again, see you at the next event.

[dicemanx]

Spawning Pit might be inferior to both Claws of Gix (due to cheaper cc) and maybe even Goblin Bombardment (which can randomly take out Welders if you care to SB those in vs Welder based decks). I think Extract is quite weak, as it might barely affect Oath - even if you reduce them to just one creature, that might easily be enough for them to win. I think you should also consider Waterfront Bouncers as well, probably in the main deck - they handle Oath nicely game 1 (your worst match-up by far - no need to give up game 1 so easily against them), and they are also randomly good against many other decks.

[Jacob Orlove]

Spawning Pit lets you make 2/2 tokens on their turn, though. You can the attack with those tokens on your turn, and then sacrifice them. Plus, it costs no mana to activate, and doesn't have colored mana in its CC.

[dicemanx]

Spawning Pit lets you make 2/2 tokens on their turn, though. You can the attack with those tokens on your turn, and then sacrifice them. Plus, it costs no mana to activate, and doesn't have colored mana in its CC.

True enough, although all that might matter is the cc if you decide to play an artifact hoser with an activated ability. There is a substantial difference between 0 cc and 2 cc in Fish, especially if they get counter mana up or drop a quick Oath on you.

Bombardment might have a color requirement, but it still works under Null Rod which can be another important consideration. Plus, Bombardment is more flexible and can serve as uncounterable creature removal against a deck like Control Slaver if you cast one early.

All three cards have their merits, but in my opinion the Pit is the least desirable out of all three. I'd most likely play Claws.

[absolute]

I think you or someone had Echoing Truths for the tokens at one point, it's also interesting...Assuming they were willing to give you a token on their upkeep, can you sac it to the Pit in response so they cannot trigger Oath?

Remember that oath is the first thing that triggers on their upkeep, since it is errat'd to say "At the beginning of each players upkeep." Hence, they cannot give you a token on their upkeep and expect a judge to let that fly...

[jCoKn]

@ absolute

The oath triggers at the beginning of the upkeep, yes, but does not check until resolution. Once Oath is on the stack, if i tap orchard to give you a creature, unless you can dispose of it before the oath trigger resolves, i will fetch a creture.

@ dicemanx

I disagree, IMO spawning pit is the best vecause it comes down the quickest, assumin perhaps you have no fetch or red source in hand, and also, you're going to board out null rods vs. oath anyways so it makes no diff. Also, over the long run you're going to deal more damage this way, combined with manlands, of course. Goblin bombardment is an option, but perhaps not for an oath metagame, but for a welder-heavy meta where bombardment would just be splash hate for oath. And claws of gix is really weak. Why would you want to be gaining life when you can be dealing damage? Hey they all basically serve the same purpose, but the fact of the matter is, you're on a clock. A very long one (until he gets 3 orchards) but still, a clock no less. Therefore it's actually quite important to be lashing out damage via the spawning pit and manlands.

[Jacob Orlove]

@ absolute

The oath triggers at the beginning of the upkeep, yes, but does not check until resolution. Once Oath is on the stack, if i tap orchard to give you a creature, unless you can dispose of it before the oath trigger resolves, i will fetch a creture.

If you do not have fewer creatures at the beginning of your upkeep, Oath will not trigger to begin with.

[dicemanx]

And claws of gix is really weak. Why would you want to be gaining life when you can be dealing damage?

IMO spawning pit is the best vecause it comes down the quickest

As I said, there is a huge difference between 0cc and 2cc in a deck that runs minimal acceleration. Unless you have other tools available at your disposal to stop Oath, it might be of utmost importance to get a token killer down as soon as possible. A Claws can come down turn 1, evading Oath's Mana Leaks. Spawning Pit, at 2cc, isn't so lucky.

Your second quote above doesn't make much sense by the way.

[Gray Ninja]

Fish has plenty of other answers available to them.  They have Strips, Force, Daze and Stifle to hopefully delay long enough to get a 2cc spell on the board.  What worries me about Claws of Gix is the fact that it has an activation cost, so you are forced to use your mana to get rid of dudes instead of using your mana to play threats or counter their spells.  As far as answers go I really think that Spawning Pit is the best answer that fish has beyond just keeping Orchards and Oaths off the board.

[maxxx]

why not play skull clamp??

it helps to draw goodies you really need and eliminate token your opponenet trows at you

[Fominian]

why not play skull clamp??

it helps to draw goodies you really need and eliminate token your opponent throws at you

One can only assume your making reference to an oath match up.

This will not help you with that at any rate - for the simple reason, even if they gave you a token each turn, and you clamped it away you would still either have to rely entirely on your lands for your win (not the best of options imho) or do a standard play and utilize your creatures.

Personally for an Oath match up in a deck like this I am fond of Claws of Gix.  It can cause a game delay (okay like one turn for every 6-8 times you use it - assuming they only get the one creature out) but its free to cast.

As for the draw... that is why Curiosity/Standstill are in there.

[Nova442]

The reason skullclamp won't work is because:

Oath player:  EOT, give you token.
You:  DOH!  I am unable to clamp it because of the sorcery speed!
Oath player:  Win.

[Veru_]

Well, I think that lava dart might help VS welders (but you still have the shops to deal with, and you might knock out some important red sources. But you SHOULD be okay with crucible and fetches in there, in theory). 4 Dazes should also help against 3sphere, but you ARE pressed fro room in your deck. It'll be a tough call. As for oath, have you ever thought about chain of vapor, or even ecoing truth? The bounce is a real godsend, especially if they don't have a brainstorm around, or you can counter it.