Multiple deck discussion centering on one card [M. Workshop]

[kakeboy07]

I have been reading this site for a long time now, and of late I have been coming here to find some more in-depth discussion on workshop-based decks.

Needless to say, I think that of late, people have been showing up with decks saying "well it won a tournament, so it must be good". I know winning a tournament is great, but thats not enough for me... I need something that will be able to adapt slightly to ANY meta, or a deck using central cards, and changes to DOMINATE a certain type of meta.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Workshop is broken... It can make consistent broken plays happen. But I in no way think that means that it is necessary in most decks. There needs to be a kill after the "brokenness"... it cant just be ( (non-shop brokenness example that follows with anti-climaticism) Wow I resolved bargain turn 1, and I just drew 18 islands and ancestral... meh deck is ba-roken). I know that most shop-based decks aren't like this... Im being facetious, but still. I think that there are better shop options than what have been posted.


**Not every deck build with shops is the ideal deck for every environment. This might seem obvious to most, but I would like to clarify that Im not looking for an outright decklist to dominate everywhere. I actually really would like a meta-game discussion devoted to shop-based decks...

Currently and from experience I will preface with the fact:
 I think that wasteland-heavy metas seem to eat up shop decks and weed them out better than any other.


Here is where I would also make a list of broken things that shop does on turn 1:

But it would be way to long and you already know most of them...



What I would like from you guys, is a simple discussion.


Here is a link to the "active" thead (posts within the last week) not many on here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20883



EDIT!!
These are QUESTIONS TO KEEP IN MIND... and to constantly explore with shop. Dont just answer these

*What are the real reasons for playing shops?

*What color(s) are truly best? (is it really all about U/R?)

*Should you run the all-nonbasic route? Does blood moon pose a great threat anyways? What about B2B? Wastelands? Opponents crucible lock?

*Force of Will, does it fit? Does it suck to lose a thirst to force more that it sucks to have an opponents spell on the table most of the time?

*How about Mana Drain in a monoblue shop deck?

*Goblin welder is a must-include? If so why not try a mono red, and screw with other decks utilizing bloodmoon?

*Bazaar+Workshop = mana screw in the works? I know it draws cards, but is it consistent enough and can you deal with not doing anything turn 1 and instead drawing 2/discarding 3?

*What does Monobrown leave you open to? What CANT it do? Can it ever be consistent enough to weed through a large field


The next two are the questions that I am really trying to tackle at the moment:

*Consistent kill mechanisms?? does anyone have one thats truly consistent? What is the most consistent in a meta loaded with combo/control/aggro? What about a blind meta you havent ever seen? What about a 5, 10 proxy meta?


Ill throw in a good quote from Vintage:

Dicemanx said :

Workshop decks hardly dominate as it is, so it will not be a dominance/distortion issue. So what *is* the issue?

Raph Caron follows up with:

The problem is that unrestricted Workshop allows too many broken starts. I define a broken start by the use of 3 or more manas on the first turn.

While broken starts are fun, if they're too frequent, they reduce the game's relevance as a strategy tester for the play aspect of Magic. Of course, deckbuilding and choosing the best archetype for an environment are important skills as well, but I believe playing skills should be rewarded as much as them.

I dont see Workshop doing anything crazy on turn 1. Nothing that an opponent cannot recover from. 3 Mana doesnt win you the game, especially when your "kill" costs 6-8, and wasteland puts you back at Square 1. How is that any worse than an opponent who can go bazaar mox lotus dragon animate, and just win? Force of will is a sticky card...



*Draw mechanisms... what can you run with workshops that will draw you cards consistently? What can you do to best gain card advantage through workshop?? It goes the other way as well.. (see cursed rack).

*Lock mechanisms. Trini, Smokestack, Sphere, Portal, Slaver, Tanglewire. When do they/dont they work, and how can you work around drawing them late-game?


I know most of the basic answers to the above questions, but id like some other cards that seem like they could have synergy wth workshop... not just (however feel free to include them) "trinisphere, crucible, chalice, jug, titan, metalworker, mindslaver, pentavus, etc...



*Does white have any bombs that could work?
*Black? Green? Blue? Red?(dont just put welder, I want to see if you have really explored some options)...




With all the mentioning of cards like transmutate artifact and artificers intuition (both of which I find to be crappy decks, and inconsistent ones at that)... are people really stretching to test what "meshes" with shop alot???


If youre testing shop in everything from 4cc to mono-green:

Why dont we get to see more results of that?

I for one think that one of these decks should emerge as the only deck you should be playing in a control/combo/aggro meta, and therefore I would like help coming to that conclusion.

[Jacob Orlove]

Moved to newbie.

[dromar]

Ok. I'll dig right in.

*What are the real reasons for playing shops?

At first I think "Trinisphere," but it's not really trinisphere as much as it is EVERY good artifact, and the fact that it's a reusable, if more narrow, black lotus. That's serious power, and it isn't even legendary.

*What color(s) are truly best? (is it really all about U/R?)

Honestly, I think so. There's no need to explain blue. Not only is it the most powerful color in terms of broken power, but it also has a really nice card drawer that synergizes with a workshop deck's card qualities: Thirst for Knowledge in an artifact deck. A match made in heaven.
Red is there for goblin welder, and to a lesser extent, the sideboard. But mostly welder.

*Should you run the all-nonbasic route?

That depends. I've never used a basic land yet though. Crucible is good.

*Force of Will, does it fit? Does it suck to lose a thirst to force more that it sucks to have an opponents spell on the table most of the time?

While every situation is different, I don't think a primarily artifact based deck (aka one with 4 MWS) will be able to reliably pack FoW. So, no. Not unless you're a very skilled deckbuilder. And if you find a good way to do it, throw me a line.

*How about Mana Drain in a monoblue shop deck?

This depends on the deck build. If you can fit FoW, you may be able to fit Mana Drain, but I would be a little worried about times when you have blue cards and Misrha's Workshops in play.

*Goblin welder is a must-include? If so why not try a mono red, and screw with other decks utilizing bloodmoon?

Goblin Welder is not a must-include. He's really good at letting you play fatties and such without paying, but prison style decks make it without him.

*Bazaar+Workshop = mana screw in the works? I know it draws cards, but is it consistent enough and can you deal with not doing anything turn 1 and instead drawing 2/discarding 3?

I wouldn't go there. Sounds bad to me.

*What does Monobrown leave you open to? What CANT it do?

Energy Flux and Hurkyl's Recall. D'OH.

*Consistent kill mechanisms?? does anyone have one thats truly consistent?

Here's what I do: In a welder version, I have Sundering Titan, Trisk, and maybe some others. Juggies are always good too, and Masticore (either) helps fight opposing welders, which are very common every once in a while in my metagame.

*Draw mechanisms... what can you run with workshops that will draw you cards consistently?

Thirst for Knowledge and other good blue stuff that's pretty obvious. Some decks use Brainstorm too. Those one's might even be able to fit FoW, now that I think of it.

*Does white have any bombs that could work?
*Black? Green? Blue? Red? (dont just put welder, I want to see if you have really explored some options)...

Hmm... Welder. I saw a deck that managed to run all 4 colors once: it had Balance, Vampiric, Demonic, Welders, and broken blue. There really isn't a whole lotta room for anything but the best (and, subsequently, most obvious).

I guess those were pretty basic answers.

[Moxlotus]

Mono red does work-look at my 7th place at SCG Chicago.  But a version with blue is more accepted.  The monored stacker is more geared towards combo hate.

While every situation is different, I don't think a primarily artifact based deck (aka one with 4 MWS) will be able to reliably pack FoW. So, no. Not unless you're a very skilled deckbuilder. And if you find a good way to do it, throw me a line.

2nd place SCG Chicago.  7/10 can run FoW.  It can't cast it reliably it, but it is enough to stop a bomb the opponent plays most of the time (Tinker, Will, forcing your own Tinker to resolve).  Pitching a Brainstorm or a Thirst sucks but is better than your opponent resolving Will.

[kakeboy07]

Moved to newbie.

Are you kidding me? Of course... you move it to newbie.. and I get a newbish first response to my thread...  I know how to play with workshop. I test more than most of you masturbate.


Good call. These are not NEWBIE questions... You've been over it many times before...  if mana drain fits with shop, if you can truly live without welder, yeah sure you can..  If youre in the right meta. I would like metagame decisions based off current shop-based decks, Not just those questions answered.

You tell me you have a truly consistent kill with a shop-based deck, and I'll introduce you to one of the two metas I play in... st louis.

Humility is crazy here, so is md seal of cleansing, as is doj, and force/standstill/mana drain. In fact most u/w control players run lotus petal sapphire and lotus to keep turn 1 drain online as often as possible. Add that to a fair share of fish decks, and wastelands everywhere (not to mention a couple maddness players), and its tough to find a shop-based kill that maintains consistency.

Turn around and head back to Minnesota/Wisconsin... The other place I happen to play, and youre welcomed home with twice as many wastelandsand plenty of shoppppin mirrors. Combo rears its ugly head, and bazaars are prominent in the form of both dragon and maddness. Grow decks with strange colors are sometimes brought in from regulars feeling like they found a new twist on dryad.

Im trying to explore a deck that would succeed in both of those metas... but i dont just want my question answered, I want a god-damned workshop discussion.  So dont suggest me to play a deck that isnt shop-based. Please save it for another thread.

Obviously thats not kosher, with all the "great discussion" about transmutate.dec, and oath, fish, eggs, that goes on in open on the first page.

I happen to test the absolute shit out of Mishra's Workshop, and I want to see input from others who do the same. Why doesnt that warrant some kind of decent t1 discussion???

I dont just want to read your decklist.



I want you to tell me the subtle effects of playing shop. Why did you play shop in mono-red. WHY was it successful? What didnt you have answers to?How can we make your deck successful in a meta full of combo? Analyze each build until were blue in the face, and move on, hopefully with the understanding that if we had to make a decision this weekend as to which deck to bring to a known meta, we'd bring the right deck, and the right sideboard, based off the theory behind the decks and the cards in the decks...

I want to find answers to any, and every deck that Im expecting to see. I want to know why Im boarding how Im boarding, or if I need to board at all. When is there enough removal out there that I would fear keeping a 2 mox/1 land 7-card and draw (going 2nd) hand? When you draw into tinker, who do you head for slaver/pentavus with, and who do you titan to death? When do you over-extend and get beatdown because of it? How can we avoid misplays, and how can we make better decisions in mulls and keeps with shops? Many of these questions are universal for most shop-based decks. Some arent. Which is where the whole "multiple deck discussion" thing comes into play.


I was trying to lead into those kind of questions/answers.We know what goes into most general shop decks.

If someone says I play shop-slaver with main deck P.mirror and Angel tinker combo and I dont run Force of will. I know whats in his deck and I think of how my deck beats it. Someone says they run mono black shops with duress, and therapies, trinis, with a jug su-chi base and trasmutates and tinkers for blue splash... I have an idea as well, even though I havent seen a decklist and havent heard of anyone playing that deck before.

Please give me posts that show that you're familiar with workshop, and that you would like to publicly pursue answers to trying problems with shops.

amen

[zmx]

*How about Mana Drain in a monoblue shop deck?

I have tried this one, the really problems is the next :

You play Workshop so you WANT to play a quickly bomb (and if you play monoBlue keep it on the table), in my test the "bomb" are Juggy/su-chi/masti

You play ManaDrain, so you WANT to have UU open at the end of your second turn (assuming your first FoW are used to keep your bomb on table)

You CANNOT play Worksop + Island + Island on turn 2

And next, in a mono-blue version all good blue card became very bad (Thrist and intuition without welder)


Welder is not only good because you can lowcast high cost bomb, it's REALLY good because you can RE-PLAY card that are countered[/quote]

[BigMac]

I may be a noob, i may be new here, i may only have a few posts and i have no acces to replying to the vintage posts about the transmute artifact deck.

However, of the people playing that deck i have the most experience with the deck (played it 4 times competative so far tuning and getting better).

In the open forum i put my thoughts about most matchups, what weaknesses it has, what strengths, how to beat and how to play.

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20911

Our transmute build is very consistent. As well against random builds as regular builds. It took us several weeks to come up with a stable manabase and a stable deck, so yes i have some experience and yes i have tested it and yes it is stable.

It contains cards that are used and why, cards that arent used and why.

Some matchups i didnt explain to length because so far those have been autowint to me and so not to hard anyways.

Hope this helps a bit.

[kakeboy07]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20911


Hope this helps a bit.

It helps slightly but your match analysis sucks, as do your results.

First off, deathlong goes and bounces your plat, and even so, there arent many deathlong decks running around. TpS would be more common, and like you said, it would run this over.


Second, your "oath" match analysis sucks. I run 4 naturalize maindeck, as well as 1 coffin purge and 4 therapies. I would have no problem going turn 1 duress/therapy, turn 2 oath, giving you a token, turn 3 oath up akroma and therapy naming whatever, I could then attack and put you in topdeck mode with therapy #2 sacing spirit/akroma. UU isnt going to come before turn 2 on most occasions, and even if youre playing an ideal hand, I can just natrualize your artifact. Hell game 2 I board in 3 oxidize for 7 total art removal spells to your 3 eon hubs. And mine come back with blessing. Dont tell me that su-chi is going to win you the game should you drop it turn 1 either. I just nat it eot, and watch you eat the mana (at least 2 of it (you might have thirst and U open).

4cc Isnt the walk you seem to make it out to be. They have TONS of answers to your deck, and If properly prepared, games 2-3 suck for you. draining a transmutate > transmutate, force takes care of sphere, and unless youre casting thirst (which id normally be draining),  You have alot of "dead" cards against matchups like that, and Id definately be the one to throw more fecthes in to get those volcs and islands.


Brainstorm seems to be the glue holding this deck together, as without it it seems horrible, and very inconsistent. Your little blurb about people letting transmutate go and then letting titan rock their lands made me chuckle. People who dont know how an artifact-based deck works, shouldnt be playing type one...

I just dont see how you expect to keep artifacts on the table, or keep an active welder with the lack up supporting cards. I cant see this deck piloting consistently through a 70-80 person field to a t8 with any sort of consistency unless you happen to have alot of luck. Sorcery speed game breakers dont seem too scary.

[BigMac]

So either youare saying that all the people i played against just suck majorly, or i am overly lucky.

Perhaps that is the case, and perhaps i only have played against scrubs. But even against scrubs luck should run out sometime.

If you say sorceryspeed is not good enough, then why are so many players playing tinker. You are right when you say UU is hard to get, that is why it took us a while to find a stable manabase, which it has now.

My gameanalisis may suck, but untill now i have yet to lose to:
TPS (won all 3 games against it)
Deatlong (won 1 game)
4CC (dunno how many but quite a few i beat to death)
Fish (at least 3)

And i only lost to oath once (beating that same deck in a semi of a top 8), drainslaver once(he just had a better draw than me, but i beat drainslaver ever since after that) and stax once (he just had a broken opening against no deck without fow had a chance against)

So unless all my opponents suck at playing or deckbuilding, or this deck and my analisis as it came to me in those games was kinda accurate.

And your analisis kinda gives you an ideal hand. With a killer hand like that any game should be yours. Next to that you gowith the thought that you are starting. First game is 50/50. If i start second game with a trinisphere or a chalice of 2 and for some reason your hand doesnt have a fow (can happen even with mulligans) you will at least have a very hard time needing an oxidise to even be able to play an Oath (incase of chalice 2) giving me enough time to get out an Eon hub or a big critter leaving you little time.

So my game analasis perhaps sucks, but is from games i actually played. Your badgering is from assumptions alone and as you can see i can make those as well. Both are under ideal hands, and we both know those hands will not always happen.

I am curious though how your deck actually looks. First of all because Akroma and spirit have proven themselves not tobe the best choices here. Could be different with you of course, but here they are less than favorable in our meta. Next to that you play black, in my oppinion a natural choice when playing such an aggressive deck but it will cost you other valuable slots for perhaps better blue cards. So would it be possible to actually see your build somewhere.

[Moxlotus]

Is that why transmute.dec has been doing very well in recent European tournaments?  Because it is horrible and inconsistant?

Also you mention your Oath deck plays 4 Naturalize and 4 Cabal therapy-most don't.  We don't care about how a match is against a specific decklist, just the general type.  Also your until you actually do well with that deck in a tournament, that deck has not proven itself good in the environment or is worthy of comparing anything to it.

Also bitching about getting your post moved is clearly the best way to get the thread moved back to open.

[kakeboy07]

If you say sorceryspeed is not good enough, then why are so many players playing tinker. You are right when you say UU is hard to get, that is why it took us a while to find a stable manabase, which it has now.

Theres no problem with tinker. In fact, as soon as darksteel came out, I came on here clamoring that tinker DC was going to hit the meta hard, and I won a ton of games playing thirst draw engine in grow with dc tinker combo thrown in. Of course when i posted that on here... It got sent to newbie until someone else had another deck report for it.  Im saying that sorcery speed bombs and a creature that can be naturalized eot for 4 mana, seems like a huge swing in tempo at times.

So unless all my opponents suck at playing or deckbuilding, or this deck and my analisis as it came to me in those games was kinda accurate.

And your analisis kinda gives you an ideal hand. With a killer hand like that any game should be yours. Next to that you gowith the thought that you are starting. First game is 50/50. If i start second game with a trinisphere or a chalice of 2 and for some reason your hand doesnt have a fow (can happen even with mulligans) you will at least have a very hard time needing an oxidise to even be able to play an Oath (incase of chalice 2) giving me enough time to get out an Eon hub or a big critter leaving you little time.

In my "hand" I was showing you the 4ofs that i run in my oath deck (i also happen to run 3 black tutors, and 3 deeds, which would also help).

What 4ofs does your deck run? Su-chi, Transmutate (*5), thirst, brainstorm, and volcanic island...While I have already admitted that brainstorm is a house, I would like to point out the fact that it looks hard to spring out of the gates and "beatdown" quickly with this deck. Say you have a hand of, workshop, off color mox, and fetch (a decent starting mana-based hand). If you drop su-chi right away, and have brainstorm for next turn, by turn 3 you have the makings of a titan, or angel... but how is that faster than CA? how is it any less susceptable to force of will, removal, drain, etc...



Im just looking for reasons to play this deck over other decks. I am not personally attacking you for your success(congradulations); however, I dont feel that what you showed me looks consistent enough to become a mainstay.

So either youare saying that all the people i played against just suck majorly, or i am overly lucky.

Thats ludacris... I didnt say that. I simply didnt like the "match analysis" that basically reads... "AUTO WINS are the R0x0r..." Every deck has answers, what did your deck do that the others didnt? What cards did you see that made you worry, what did you have the answers to? What mis-plays did your opponents make that let you win (you already mentioned one), and what would you do differently?

This was the whole point I wanted this thread to be about... Why play workshop, with all the hate, what answers does it provide outside of the infamous turn 1 drop hand trini, go? I dont just want to see... my deck wins, I want to know exactly what you've been seeing, what your meta is... and why youre winning. Is your kill coming down turn 2 and wrapping the game up turn 4? Is it more like turn 3- turn 6? You telling me that you're from europe (along with morefling, who also posted on this deck) shows me that this deck hasnt been tested in a meta even close to my own.


Onward:

Is that why transmute.dec has been doing very well in recent European tournaments?  Because it is horrible and inconsistant?

Also you mention your Oath deck plays 4 Naturalize and 4 Cabal therapy-most don't.  We don't care about how a match is against a specific decklist, just the general type.  Also your until you actually do well with that deck in a tournament, that deck has not proven itself good in the environment or is worthy of comparing anything to it.

Also bitching about getting your post moved is clearly the best way to get the thread moved back to open.

Heres the problem with what you're saying... You've given me a decklist, Ive come back saying heres the problem with your analysis, and you simply come back with ... well the general deck type isnt like that...

Are you saying oath-combo is better? Thats fine, but I dont think so. Takes 2 Different combos to pull of in that case, and a single StP ruins your day.

I will quote diceman:

the combo (8)
=========

4x Oath of Druids
1x Tinker  (not in my build because there is no blue)
1x Darksteel Collosus
1x Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1x creature #3 (see below)
For creature #3, I have tried Spirit of the Night, Crosis the Purger, and Exalted Angel. I would also consider Ancient Hydra and Morphling.

I dont like colossus in there, but go for it... I happen to run akroma and spirit main along with crosis and then have DS Colossus in the side.

I personally dont run blue either, although i see many decks that do.

The whole point is that Im looking for an answer to the simple question:

Why play one shop-based deck over another, given a specific meta? Thank you for finally metioning that you are indeed european... where in europe? what meta is this florishing in?

But with transmutate looking good then:
you've already shown that UU is fine with a shop-based deck, so why not add drain?

I will send you a copy of a decklist bigmac along with some testing results... (I do mainly play with shop-based decks however, so it wont be as extensive as I would like for now). I do have 30-40 matches worth of comments to discuss with. (mainly that night's whisper sucks..   )

Also bitching about getting your post moved is clearly the best way to get the thread moved back to open.

Um.. when did i bitch about that? I simply stated that I felt this topic warrants a much more in-depth and detailed discussion than it would at first seem. I mentioned that I playtest plenty, to keep those who would simply answer the questions in the first post from posting... I also mentioned that I would really like it if you could make a case for a specific deck given your meta... I just want more out of match results than something saying "autowin" and moving on. I want specifics... I want more than what I've seen.

[Komatteru]

Dude, the random bold, italics, and big text everywhere doesn't help add any credibility. (This was moved to this forum because it is a basic discussion.)

Why play one shop-based deck over another, given a specific meta?

Because you prefer one Shop deck over another.  It's a simple answer.  The meta allows for choices based on personal preference (especially now more than ever).  You can choose Oath over Control Slaver because you like the style of the deck and it suits your playstyle better, so you do better with it.

[kakeboy07]

Dude, the random bold, italics, and big text everywhere doesn't help add any credibility. (This was moved to this forum because it is a basic discussion.)

Why play one shop-based deck over another, given a specific meta?

Because you prefer one Shop deck over another.  It's a simple answer.  The meta allows for choices based on personal preference (especially now more than ever).  You can choose Oath over Control Slaver because you like the style of the deck and it suits your playstyle better, so you do better with it.

          Its not that basic... Lets say jacob had started this instead. We'd be talking about how the subtle differences in builds give way to advnantages/disadvantadges versus specific archetypes. Its not just "this is my pet deck" so im going to bring it. Knowing a deck is great. Being familiar with the cards that you have in your deck protectors is awesome [/sarcasm]. Unfortunately, being SUCCESSFUL means optimizing your deck given what you expect to see.

      ugh... Its more than just a blind decision... You wouldnt play DS colossus if everyone maindecked chain of vapor and 4 echoing truth would you? Its not just your "opinion" specific cards mean success against other specific cards... or at least the highest chance of success. Thats what im after. I want someone who's played with workshop-based decks for enough rounds to know specific matchups to post some detailed info on matchups, and subtle changes in how you play the deck or what you bring, that helps you win...

I hate this forum. I dont know why I ever bother posting. I should just keep my thoughts to myself.

We differ fundamentally here. I think all shop decks arent played the same, and do not require the same decisions/dont have the same answers/weaknesses. You obviously do. Keep your opinion. You're entitled to it.

-joel

[JAG]

Ok, well, I'm not sure if this is what you want, but this is what I have at this point in testing:

I've been working 5/3 vs Meandeck Oath for a little while now.  We have been playing only the game 1 setup (mostly because we're constructing a 5/3 sideboard and using this testing to do it), but i've been seeing quite a bit of useful info.

For one thing, I'm valuing Crucible far less in this matchup than in most.  The Oath deck can run quite a number of basic lands (ours has 5 although we're going to 4), rendering the good ol' Crucible + Wasteland combo ineffective more often than against, say, 4cc or Tog.  

Trinisphere is obvious excellent, but in this case I've found it devastatingly effective.  While Crucible on its own is no longer a great threat (although still a potentially worrisome one for the Oath player), when combined with Trinisphere is still deadly.  I'm sure you didn't need to be told that 3sphere + Crucible is good, but i'm just saying that even in a matchup where I've found Crucibles to be somewhat lacking, the combo is still very strong.

Winning quickly is key in this matchup.  I've been in situations in games where playing turn 1 Goblin Welder when I could play turn 1 Juggernaut may have been the wrong play.  It is very important to neutralize the Oath player quickly, since once the deck gets going it is very very difficult to stop.  

Once the combo gets going, I've defeated it only with Duplicant, except in the occasional cases where the combo starts with them at 2 life and me with several Spirits and Juggernauts in play.   Obviously removing Akroma and Spirit from the game is extremely detrimental to the Oath player's chances to win the game.  Unfortunately, Duplicant is pretty much the only card you can draw to save the game once Oath starts working.  The only alternative I've found is to leave a Jar on the board and hope they oath down into the bottom 7 cards of their library.  It also works with Ancestral (works best if they try to recur their graveyard with Blessing), but neither solution has worked consistently for me.  

This matchup overall seems to be one where speed is of absolute escense.  You are both racing to your combo, and the first one there essentially wins.  Although it is true that the Oath combo beats the 5/3 one, the 5/3 combo, if followed with pressure, will prevent the Oath combo from occuring.

I hope this was of at least some value to you.

-JM

[Moxlotus]

Um.. when did i bitch about that? I simply stated that I felt this topic warrants a much more in-depth and detailed discussion than it would at first seem.

Are you kidding me? Of course... you move it to newbie.. and I get a newbish first response to my thread... I know how to play with workshop. I test more than most of you masturbate.

I hate this forum. I dont know why I ever bother posting. I should just keep my thoughts to myself.

Also:

Heres the problem with what you're saying... You've given me a decklist, Ive come back saying heres the problem with your analysis, and you simply come back with ... well the general deck type isnt like that...

Are you saying oath-combo is better? Thats fine, but I dont think so. Takes 2 Different combos to pull of in that case, and a single StP ruins your day.

I'm saying that when you counter an Oath analysis with

Second, your "oath" match analysis sucks. I run 4 naturalize maindeck, as well as 1 coffin purge and 4 therapies.

you are saying that the deck's analysis doens't work for your particular deck.  I'm not saying any Oath build is superior-I'm just saying that nobody's ever seen your decklist perform well and therefore not a lot of people play it.  People test against the most popular form of a deck.  I'm not even talking about black or not, I'm talking about that no other Oath deck runs 4 naturalize, 1 purge, and 4 Therapy main and therefore there is no need to test against it for the purpose of making a general matchup analysis.

[BigMac]

Here is the reason why i like playing this MWS deck over for example stax.

While stax is singlemindedly good it can be easilly overcome by for example an early FOW making it, although reliable, a bit shaky and singleminded. Take away 1 piece and you have a fighting chance. (preferably the trini or mudstack)

This deck although looking aggro is much more. You dont have to transmute because you pretty much can play beatdown. Tinker nowadays often is used for a quick win with colossus. With this deck i can pretty much look for answers against any deck i play. Mostly i go for a recurring memory jar before i even think of killing a person. So getting out a welder is way more important than getting out a Su-Chi first turn. The basis of this deck is getting the drawengine going. So the workshops get into it somewhat later, specially against counter decks. I actually sacrificed an ancestral versus Oath to get out my welder turn 1. (was counter oath) Whatever is countered or destroyed can be gotten back with easy then. (except for a chalice of 2) But in getting a recurring Jar with a welder you make sure you can get answers in your hand (brainstorm) and in your graveyard when not able to actually play them during your turn.

The beauty of this deck is that you can look for an artifact answer to your own problems or to a problem your opponent lays down for you. This deck is very versatile and still enough aggressive to kill random decks and counter decks when drawing nromally.

For example a chalice of 1 or 2 against your deck could severely slow you down while i could still play threats. This deck is not about being the best, but being able to have a fighting chance against anything.

As for fish and 4CC. I call those autowins because their manabase is very shaky. Against those decks it is evident getting out (either weldering or transmuting Su-Chi) Sundering titan. I dont mind them destroying it after i took up haf their lands destroying the other half the second time. If you see either deck have answers without mana, again i hope to see those decklists. As i said before, i have yet to lose a game against either.

I played 3 tournies now with my deck, playing 21 matches, lost 3 times and due to running out of time drew once. All the meta's were diverse fully powered meta's. The last top 8 i played consisted of:
2 MWS transmute decks (me and Bram played virtually same deck in the final)
2 Oathdecks (the one i lost to round 2 of the tourny beating it in the semi and one i beat earlier in the tourny)
1 5/3 (quarterfinal i beat it)
1 4CC (was destroyed by Bram in the Semi)
1 stax
Dont remember the last deck
In the tourny there was a fair amount of TPS and deathlong. Not one made it to the top 8.

So thus far this is well tested and doing well against virtually anything. TPS stays the worst matchup. Although i won against all i played against that is mostly due to mistakes of my opponents. (i can see cause i played it for a long time myself, TPS that is) I also wasnt unlucky in my draws against it.

One last comment, the Oath played here mostly is blue green with sometimes a little black splash (for demonic and will i think as i never saw them) Blue just has a way better draw engine than black. That is perhaps the biggest flaw in your reasoning that you get out your threats earlier than me. I have a fairly consistant drawengine (ancestral, brainstorm, jar and thirst) and probably would have a very effective jester's cap against you. (yes its in my sideboard and a turn 1 or 2 active one is possible although a good hand is required) You playing no counters (assuming you playonly black and green) gives me a free hand to look for whatever i want and draw many more cards than you soon.

But still i would like to see your deck sometime.