[deck] nassif's eba

[jpmeyer]

Then start a different thread about it. Its relevance to Dr. Sylvan's article is tangential at best.[/color]

By popular demand:

Basically the random French T1 players are all terrible. I think Toad was judging that day, too.

Toad occasionally tests with Nassif and Ruel as well, so it's not like those two are totally outside the Type 1 loop.  Here is Nassif's deck:

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring

1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Yawgmoth's Will

1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
2 Ophidian
1 Time Walk

4 Shadowmage Infiltrator
4 Vindicate

1 Disenchant
3 Exalted Angel
4 Swords to Plowshares

2 Flooded Strand
1 Library of Alexandria
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Strip Mine
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland

SB:
1 Annul
1 Balance
1 Coffin Purge
1 Decree of Justice
1 Deep Analysis
3 Hydroblast
1 Masticore
1 Ophidian
2 Planar Void
1 Sacred Ground
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Skeletal Scrying

Also, if you've read any of Flores' articles, you'll know that Nassif is very big on cutting down to the bare minimum number of cards needed to do something, hence the many 1-and-2-of's

[Grand Inquisitor]

I know this will come off as pessimistic, but I would bet this is the result of a great player with a better than mediocre deck in a weak field.  I only add in the last part, since someone else mentioned that the Paris metagame is dense on scrubs.

I've noticed, especially over the last half year, how well talented players can do with sub-optimal decks.  I think this is another example.  Just looking at the list, I wouldn't expect netdeckers to be able to consistently pilot this to T8's in small NE tournaments, for example.

If something looks ahead of the innovation curve, and meets all the regular stress tests, then I would put time into finding out if it's the real deal.  I don't feel that way about this deck, and I think Seth's list from Waterbury earlier this year is a much better example of how EBA can/should be done.

[Alfred]

Wow, 6 phids? That seems a little odd! This reminds me a lot of a last season's Extended deck called "Dump Truck", which was similar to EBA, except it utilized black for duress and sometimes infiltrators. Dump Truck was also a very good metagame deck, because it could change around a bunch of it's parts and change the matchup W/L ratio quite a bit.

JP, I would like to know what the metagame was like. I suppose that there wasn't a lot of oath, or a lot of mana-drain decks, judging by the average high CC of most of the spells in the deck, and the use of Phids.

Oh, and one more thing, I can only see the 1 & 2 ofs in the SB, because the maindeck actually has more 4 ofs than most of the vintage decks I'm used to.

[DEA]

it would make sense that eba reminds you of dump truck, because the idea for eba came right from there

[Alfred]

I know the two were related. But I'm pretty sure that both Fiends and Dump Truck came from EBA and not the other way around. The reason that I said it reminded me of dump truck was the reliance on Shadowmage Infiltrator and vindicate.

[Machinus]

Here is Nassif's deck:
4 Vindicate
1 Disenchant

Isn't this the maindeck artifact removal that Toad says we should run?

[The M.E.T.H.O.D]

We might see some pro's play t1 at GP Boston

[Toad]

I talked about this deck the week after the tournament with Gabriel and he admitted his deck was quite crap. He just won because of skills.

Side note : people keep saying T1 is all about luck, opening draws and stuff like that. See the "restrict Trinisphere because It kicks skills out of T1". At that tournament, 2 pros had been playing. Gabriel wins. Antoine finishes second. While Antoine usually playtests T1 on weekly basis with some other french players (namely, his brother Olivier, Frederic Courtois, Loic Caron, and sometimes myself when I find time), Gabriel almost never tests. He didn't won because of superior draws, broken openings (his deck features no broken first turn plays), broken cards (no Bazaar, no Mana Drain, no Workshop, no Trinisphere). He won because of skills.

I only add in the last part, since someone else mentioned that the Paris metagame is dense on scrubs.

It is *not* dense on scrubs, and we have a good powered metagame (usually 65% of decks are powered). T1 tourneys are dense on T1 players. Even if they are some good players, a great player like Gabriel will always make you feel like a scrub.

[majestyk1136]

I talked about this deck the week after the tournament with Gabriel and he admitted his deck was quite crap. He just won because of skills.

T1 tourneys are dense on T1 players. Even if they are some good players, a great player like Gabriel will always make you feel like a scrub.

This sort of lends credence to the idea that a couple of Nassif's opponents probably had stars in their eyes when sitting across from him and resultingly walked into huge mistakes, probably allowing him to steal a couple of games or maybe even matches.

[effang]

I talked about this deck the week after the tournament with Gabriel and he admitted his deck was quite crap. He just won because of skills.

T1 tourneys are dense on T1 players. Even if they are some good players, a great player like Gabriel will always make you feel like a scrub.

This sort of lends credence to the idea that a couple of Nassif's opponents probably had stars in their eyes when sitting across from him and resultingly walked into huge mistakes, probably allowing him to steal a couple of games or maybe even matches.

I think that this is a really weak excuse.

Anyways, Toad, if you could please enlighten us further on how he played that would be really great.  How exactly would somebody go about piloting a weak EBA deck, given the strong t1 environment that you stated.

[Ultima]

I think i'd have to agree with my teammate GI here.  There are so many things that just pop right out of this list that most decent players wouldn't ever consider doing in our metagame.  Just to name the primaries, the manabase looks far too unstable for a powered metagame, the creature base looks equally unbalanced because of the manabase and the fact that finkels don't evade in this format.  Just these aspects alone put a ton of pressure on this deck.  

I'm sure that this guy is an amazing player because the list doesn't look like it can lend him any additional help on its own.

[nataz]

Nassif is one of the best pro-players in the world. The difference in skill level between even an average type I player and an average pro-player is huge. The gap would be even larger with someone like Nassif.

you don't have to be a scrub to be outplayed by someone who does this for a living.

I'm pretty sure there isn't much more to learn from this.

[raye]

I don't think EBA's relation to Dump Truck matters too much here. That said, the very early EBA decks were very different from its current incarnation with cards like Savannah Lions and Spectral Lynx. EBA with Angels came about around July 2003.

Nassif's deck is a bit of a departure from the 'norm' for EBA. He runs off color moxen and does not run Mana Drain. He runs 6 'Phid type creatures instead of card drawing spells like FoF and Skeletal Scrying. There are also *4* Vindicates in the maindeck.

I find the mana base even more surprising. No basic lands. It does not even try to work around Wasteland, B2B and Blood Moon.

My reaction is that it is a very focused deck. Drop 'Phids and Angels with a little disruption and a little counter magic. My attemtps with EBA lately have not worked out well because I never found a mana base I was happy with. I would be rather surprised if the solution was to just ignore the bad mana base.

The explanation for Nassif's result has been all playskill playskill playskill but I have a hard time swallowing that given all the characteristic of this deck. I wish I had the motivation to test this deck to see if it does indeed run well. Anyone up to that task and willing to report results?

[MrZuccinniHead]

like i said before, i still like EBA and play it still occasionally.
How is this supposed to contribute to the discussion? Warning for spam.
-Jacob

[Fominian]

I know this will come off as pessimistic, but I would bet this is the result of a great player with a better than mediocre deck in a weak field.  I only add in the last part, since someone else mentioned that the Paris metagame is dense on scrubs.

I will have to agree with this comment.  EBA is just not a deck that (in the hands of anyone) can handle today’s meta.  In the hand of a skilled player, and one who knows the deck extremely well, it can, and often is a force to be reckoned with.  It’s just not a deck that can be picked up 'off the shelf' and be piloted to a win.

On the note of T1 being based on luck:  All right luck is a big factor, that is undeniable - there are things that can be done to overcome a lot of it, but we are unable to remove it completely.  However, skill is the true power of T1 - and this thread just goes to prove that point. A sub par deck in the hands of a skilled player can and will win events. (Within reason of course - there are other factors to consider, this is just a blanket statement for the overall )

[maxxx]

yeah maybe skill is a part of a good player.

but how can you do broken things with unbroken cards???

I mean that even if u are  the best player in the world, how can you won a tourney with a dwarfs-deck   ???
How is this supposed to contribute to the discussion? WARNING for spam. That's two already today. Shape up or get out.
-Jacob

[Fominian]

yeah maybe skill is a part of a good player.

but how can you do broken things with unbroken cards???

I mean that even if u are  the best player in the world, how can you won a tourney with a dwarfs-deck   ???

That is what I would classify as something that falls out of the boundaries of 'within reason'.

As for doing broken things with unbroken cards?  That itself is fairly easy - look at the majority of successful budget decks throughout history.

[Kowal]

It's definitely not tech overlooked.  From what I've seen, the area is fairly weak sans 4-5 players.  Toad always ends up on top when he plays no matter what he feels like playing (see his reaplace report for an example) and it should come as no surprise Nassif delivered with a deck that's pretty terrible.

Pros making thousands of dollars on the circuit don't necessary play t1 to win, they play to kick back and relax.  Nassif probably just really likes Vindicate and wants an excuse to play it.

[Methuselahn]

To me, this looks like a case of someone winning with a deck that they are extremely familiar with.  I bet Nassif played Dump Truck in 1.X and therefore did well with this EBA variant.

Unless the meta where this tournament was located is 'in the loop'  I don't see how this list affects the cutting edge metas.

[effang]

well, i'm sure his experience with dumptruck (theoretical or not) definately helped him perform well with EBA.  However, at the same time, extended can barely relate to t1 anymore.  Anything that he was playing back then is so different from what he's playing in t1 that the only advantage is his familiarity with the deck, rather than his familiarity with the meta.  again, what this shows is that either the tourney scene there is weak (toad says it is not) or...we want to see some tourney reports =)

[kirdape3]

It really comes down to playskill and a deck that actually has a ton of outs against most situations.  It's not that it's particuarly good, but it gives someone of Nassif's caliber the ability to outplay the opponent which he rightly expects to do in every conceivable matchup.

[zmx]

It's definitely not tech overlooked.  From what I've seen, the area is fairly weak sans 4-5 players.  Toad always ends up on top when he plays no matter what he feels like playing (see his reaplace report for an example) and it should come as no surprise Nassif delivered with a deck that's pretty terrible.

I think this is not a good sample ... This tourney is "fun" and half of the player are a twelve year boys (that playing *4* Mind's desire because in T2 it can)

So, please don't use that for explain the "French metagame" and the preformance of Nassif

[Grollub]

Heh. So a good player can win with a bad version of EBA? Then how would a good player fare with a good version of EBA?

[kirdape3]

He isn't GOOD.  He's the reigning Player of the Year - the best player in the world.  It's more along the lines of you can hand him anything with that many solutions and he'll breeze through a largely PTQ or lower level of competition.

[Freelancer]

kirdape I totally agree with you...a deck with plenty off outs and answers piloted by a great player should breeze through most competition...still it's pretty good even for a player like nassif to annihalate everyone like this...

[cssamerican]

The thing I find amazing about this is, countless people keep complaining about certain cards and decks as being so broken that play skill can not overcome their power. Then we see a great player take a pretty weak "non-broken abiet consistent" deck and rip through a large field containing those uber broken decks.
There can only be two explanations.
1.) He got unbeleivably lucky in his pairings, and I stress unbeleivably.
2.) Cards and decks aren't as consistently broken as they are hyped up to be; therefore, a consistent deck in the hands of an excellent player can win more often than not in a best out of three format.

[Grollub]

He isn't GOOD.  He's the reigning Player of the Year - the best player in the world.  It's more along the lines of you can hand him anything with that many solutions and he'll breeze through a largely PTQ or lower level of competition.

That's my point. (Looking back I can see it didn't came out clearly, well not at all!)

I haven't paid much attention to T1 for some time, but it seems that most decks are "IN YOUR FACE" in essence, always trying to do their thing and win. Then "The Best Player in the world" (tm) walks up with an interactive deck, which many seems to think is badly configured for todays envioment and takes the entire tournament. Is this a sign of things to come?

The general consensus seems to be that the pro players can take everything with an interactive deck - or many outs if you want. Maybe it's time to put down the Hypergun and go with the Railgun, yeah bad Q2 analogy I know but couldn't resist.

Would he have been able to do it with say, Doomsday or another combodeck?

[andrewpate]

Actually, I'd imagine that he would do better with EBA than with a more "broken" deck like Doomsday.  Vintage combo is in some certain ways a skill in and of itself, and Nassif's Pro Tour experience would confine his knowledge more to combo decks like Black Desire, Life, and The Clock (which he created).  I'm sure he could learn one of our combo decks fairly quickly and do fairly well with it, but his really intensive testing--the testing that earns him tens of thousands of dollars--is going to be with more "traditional" decks, such as Sligh or Junk.  As a Junk deck, EBA is something Nassif would be able to pilot very intuitively, leaving him with questions like "Since I went first and layed my Mox, is this Trinisphere really worth a Force of Will?" (questions he is unfathomably good at answering) instead of "Do I have enough Storm yet to reliably win if I cast this Mind's Desire?" (which would be obvious to many of us, even though we are only a fraction of his skill level).

[raye]

The results from an event were recently posted here: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=336153#336153

Notice the Nassif EBA deck in the Top 8. This is a good result. I also noticed 8 Wastelands in the Top 8 (2 in the Nassif EBA deck). Does that explain how this mana base can be played?

My conclusion from seeing this result is that the deck is likely solid for Wasteland light metagames. I understand that Nassif is the most awesome player to walk the Earth but I don't think his result with this deck can be explained by his playskill alone.

[miki]

The deck list looks pretty good altough it would be pwned in a wateland-
heavy meta , which is basiclly all metagames (mine included!).Mana Drain and Cunning Wish would make his deck better though. If I know currectly EBA is derived from Dump Truck , and I think Nassif played Dump Truck last extended season after Tinker got banned. Anyway as others have said , Nassif is the current best player on the planet so he should be able to pwn us all (well maybe not all of us , but he will probably own me blindfolded) , and he  had the psychological upper hand against his opponents (imagine being Joe Random and having to play against the best player in the world) . Just my 0.02$s