Keep Legacy?

[Zherbus]

I've been PM'd lately asking when I was going to 'delete the forum and let TheSource take everything for Legacy.' While the forum is certainly non-crucial to TMD, many members enjoy posting on Legacy here. I basically want to know whether you want us to keep things as is, get rid of Legacy alltogether, or more aggressively persue the format.

[rvs]

I would say: get rid of it.

We don't need it, and I'm sure a ton of people don't care. HOWEVER, the same could probably be said just about every forum that exists. So in any case, it's just my personal opinion.

[Dr. Sylvan]

There seems to be enough traffic to justify its existence. If I had time to do more than articles, that's where I'd be, and I'd rather it be here than on another website.

[jpmeyer]

Nuke it.  The interest here is waning.

[Nazdakka]

I would like to see it kept as is, but put it on probation. If by 'more aggressively persue the format' you mean applying the same posting standards as Vintage Open, then it's worth a try. However post traffic is dropping, and so pro-active modding might simply deal the final blow.

If you mean running/sponsering a some IRL events for Legacy away from the current areas, then I'd be massively in favour. If Legacy is going to be more than a minority format the way 1.5 was, it needs a good number of events being held in a wide range of places, not just Sycrause and a few other pockets.

PS: If the forum dies the way that Open Budget did, then by all means close it, but please archive it as opposed to nuking it - there are some good threads in there and it would be a shame to lose them.

[VGB]

If you do decide to trash the Legacy forum, at least give the people who post there ample warning, so they have a chance to transfer the content they wish to save from oblivion - which is a luxury a lot of people who frequented the erstwhile budget forum didn't have.

[Zherbus]

1) I'd leave it locked for a week, then hide it.
2) We still have the budget forum, but there was NOTHING worth saving. It all either sucked or I moved it to open.

[Bardo]

While there is less 1.5 traffic on TMD than thesource, I find the post quality to be higher here. That isn't to say that there aren't fine posters at mtgthesource (and the mod staff is generally competent), but there's a lot more of the "FoF is [insert moronic leet synonym for 'good']" single-line posters.

That said, the TMD forum would greatly benefit from more posts from the old-time Vintage folks. If that's what you mean by "Let's do more with the forum", then I'm all for that. If you mean more modding, I'd say that Matt does a very good job of keeping the signal:noise acceptable.

[Matt]

I heartily vote to keep it. I'm sure I don't only speak for myself when I say I want a viable alternative to the source, which I don't really enjoy for reasons I won't reveal. As I see it, there's no real cost to leaving it open, so even if you never use it, what's the harm? The entire forum probably takes up less bandwidth than one of Smmenen (or Phil's on a good day) article-response threads.

[Miniature Kenny]

I am in favour of keeping the Legacy thread as well.  TMD is the place for intellectual Vintage players, so there is an apparent runoff into the Legacy forum.  I know that in my area, there is often a 1.5 tourney once a month, somewhere or another.  This place has people who actually put the time into the constructs of their posts, therefore making it superior to the other webistes which, as bardo trout stated, " ' FoF is [insert moronic leet synonym for 'good'] ' " are often cluttered with useless information.  

A good majority of other sites have an abundance of people whom jack the ideas from forums such as these, twist them a little bit and say, "Hey, look at this bitchin' awesome deck that I created! OMFG!!!! IT SOOOOO GOOOD!!!!"  I personally like the strictly moderated sites so that I don't have to sift through the garbage and spam posts of others.  For the short time that I have been a member here, the mods have been doing what they are supposed to do.  They are even helpful!! What do you know?  

I must give it up to you guys (not to sound like an asskisser which is what I am probably coming off as), but you have deticated whole threads as to what not to do, and that benefits the poster and the reader.  But back to the matter at hand, these Legacy forums have what others mostly lack; class.

[Godder]

The initial buzz for Legacy has calmed down, but as was mentioned, the forum doesn't seem to be causing any serious problems, so why worry about it? If it degenerates into flame wars or nothingness, I'm sure the axe can be dropped on it, but until then, let people enjoy it.

[Aeneas]

I wholeheartedly support the Legacy forums and their continued existence here at TheManaDrain.  I would imagine that keeping the Legacy forums open does not consume all that much bandwidth.  Of all of the Magic related forums, Legacy has the least number of threads and least number of total posts in it.  

This is not to say that there is little going on in the Legacy forums.  There has been excellent work made on a number of decks, including Belcher, Super/Miracle Gro, Salvager, White Weenie, and a variety of Survival oriented decks.  I must say, a number of the decks under development in the Legacy forums have received substantial help from TMD regulars.  Bram and JP basically built the current version of Salvager by themselves.  Matt weighs in on nearly every meritorious Legacy thread that opens.  I have seen MuzzonoAmi, Kowal, Vegeta, Bulls on Parade, theorigamist, Smmenen, Ric_Flair, and kirdape3 pitch in on the Legacy threads.  Legacy has much to gain from TheManaDrain.

Perhaps when Legacy develops enough of a base to support itself, TheManaDrain and Legacy should part ways.  Until then, I don't see its stay here to be harmful to anyone.

[rozetta]

Although it doesn't really interest me, I reckon we shouldn't axe it, since some time in the future if the format is properly supported by WotC (after the next Extended rotation), we'd just have to start a new one.

[Addolorisi]

I totally agree with Matt. While I'm registered at The Source, I don't really enjoy posting there (or even lurking for that matter), and spend about half of my time on TMD sifting through the 1.5 forum.

[leviat]

TMD is all about Vintage. Always has been and always should be.  Syracuse lives, eats, and breathes Legacy to the point where they don't even show up for Vintage anymore (wimps!).

I won't go to The Source for Vintage and I don't expect them to come here for Legacy. My vote is to get rid of it.

[BigChuck]

We have no type 2 forum anymore, either, so now that Legacy looks like it will be more supported, we don't need to foster small discussion here, when in reality, most every one who comes here, comes for the type one.

[Alfred]

I really enjoy the Legacy forum here, which is where I have been posting mostly for the past few months. Legacy is an extremely interesting format, and the post content has generally been quite high. I really encourage all of the intelligent and insightful members of the vintage community to at least attempt to create a new deck or help to refine an existing one. The format is still relatively new, and TMD has a great standard for moderation and post quality, so I think this could be the place where a lot of the format defining innovations take place. I vote to keep it, and take a more interested stance in improving it.

[Peter_Rotten]

Quite frankly, I love 1.5 - it is my favorite format.  There is no way around it, so I must state that my view point about TMD's Legacy forum is obviously jaded by the fact that I'm an Admin on MTS.

If ever I have a passing interest in the current Type I happenings and trends, I visit this site for its well modded and informative forums.  Rarely will I have to sift through one line h4ck3r leet speak or junk posts about bad decks.  Unfortunately, I do not find that the format that I hold dear receives the same serious treatment here that Type I receives.  Let me elaborate:

1.  1.5 has always been overshadowed by its supposed big brother, Type I.  Does adding a single forum to give 1.5 a cursory treatment remove that stigma?  No, it does not.  If anything, it fosters the view that 1.5 is Type I lite since it is not receiving the same developed treatment.  I assume that most of your members and Mods come here for Type I discussion.  When it comes to Legacy, this terse treatment has given TMD a reputation only slightly better than the Legacy forums at Brainburst or SCG.

2.  The 1.5 forums have no organization or inherent quality control.  Look at the Type I forums - you have 4 separate forums.  Look at MTS - we have 4 separate forums for 1.5.  On both sites a user can easily recognize what decks are at the forefront of the meta and which ones would likely make a competitive gauntlet for testing.  On both sites a user can recognize which of the 4 forums will contain the more useful information while which one will have the Newbie and Developmental material that may not be worth reading.  My point is that TMD has only one forum for 1.5 where all manner and different quality of decks are grouped together.  RG Survival is grouped with Retract-a-Bolds which is grouped with TutorMutor which is grouped with Super-Gro which is grouped with tournament reports and announcements.  To be plain - TMD has tier one decks grouped with viable decks grouped with trash grouped with casual decks.

3.  I'm not looking to ruffle feathers, but the Legacy Forum Moderation is not up to snuff when compared to the other TMD forums.  How many ATS threads were open at the same time?  Burn threads?  Stasis threads? 1.5 had been named Legacy for over a month before TMD changed the name of the forum.  I doubt that that forum is the pride and joy of TMD.

4.  A certain degree of misunderstanding of Legacy is continually perpetrated by the TMD forum.  Some of the better decks are not being discussed.  Only three of the six top decks have discussion threads in the forum.  Look at this suggestion about the supposed tier structure of Legacy

Tier 1:
ATS
Full English Breakfast
Transmute Artifact

Tier 2:
LED Madness
Goblin Sligh
Belcher
Salvager

If you do not know, it is ridiculous.

I voted to remove the forum since I do not see it doing justice to a format that I love.  If you decide to keep it, I recommend some vast  adjustments that could possibly solve the issues that I have raised.

[Matt]

As the only mod for the 1.5 forum, I'd like to address your points one by one.

1. I hate to get this started on a sour note, but this argument is nothing more than a fancy way of saying "I want my site to be the only 1.5 site." I think it would be instructive for you to follow the (very) successful TMD model - Zherbus never asked Starcitygames or MTGNews to shut down their type one forums so he could have the format all to himself. Just keep your nose to the grindstone and continue to work hard and if your site is so deserving of its preeminence then it will become apparant in the fullness of time as ideas created there win more and better tournaments than ideas created elsewhere.

2. It's true that we (I) permit quite a few weaker ideas, along with a mixture of thread topics. However, we don't get enough traffic to justify additional forums for strong decks/weak decks/non-deck-related 1.5 discussion (reports and announcements).

3. I don't recall there being many duplicate threads, and certainly the forum isn't the way you portray it. In fact, scrolling through, I don't see ANY duplicate threads, including locked ones, on the first page. Around towards the bottom of the second page you start seeing a couple, but a) they're locked, and b) they were locked on or about Spetember 22, a whole two days after the announcement. That is not poor by any stretch, and this fanciful argument really makes me suspicious of your others. As far as the name change goes, that earns my "So what?" of the day. TMD calls itself the premier type one site, but "type one" hasn't existed for YEARS - it's officially been known as "Vintage" since at least 2002. People will always refer to the other dual land-packing format as "1.5," and you're just nitpicking in the extreme here.

4. This, however, is a much more valid criticism. The laxity with which I allow poor deck design may in fact be contributing to a skewed perception of what is viable in the format. I fully concede that this may be the case.

I am not convinced, however, that it's a real problem. Firstly, I think most people posting here (there are of course a few exceptions) are aware of when their decks are not up to snuff, and that's why they come here - to see if anyone has any ideas that can make their deck competetive. Secondly, if the fact that an 'inferior' 1.5 forum exists is keeping you up at night, I hardly see how that's our problem.

If you can show or cite some actual damaging effect (and not appeals to nebulous phrases like "cohesiveness of the site" or some such nonsense), I'll be more than willing to listen and amend my moderation. If you (or anyone else) can show me how the existence of TMD's 1.5 forum is in some concrete way causing harm, and that such harmful effects aren't  insignificant, then I will be forced to agree that the forum should be disbanded. Up until now, however, all I'm hearing is this:

[dandan]

I'm all for the Legacy forum. In many ways Legacy is likely to be THE casual format as few people stick their Moxen in casual decks. This might, in time, be a problem and result in the need for separate Legacy forums but at present I think it is a brave man that tries to divide decks into viable and non-viable in such a young and underdeveloped format.

Note that TMD campaigned to have a separate B&R list for old 1.5 and is at least partially responsible for its creation. It would be a great shame if TMD didn't support Legacy as undoubtedly Legacy will provide a stepping stone for new players for Vintage and vica versa.

TMD has also greatly accelerated the development of Vintage from one where people won tournaments with 1999 Keeper to one where decks with a fundamental turn on turn 2 are often too slow. I believe many of the old Type I players who dislike the new developed Vintage would benefit from Legacy being Vintage's little brother rather than an unwanted orphan.

[urza_insane]

I enjoy the Legacy forum. I as many come to TMD simply for the Type 1 Foums, but having the legacy one alows me to peek in every so often and offer some ideas. I pesonally would not have much interest in Legacy were it not for being on The Mana Drain. If the forum were deleted, I would rarely (if ever) visit the source.

Leave the Legacy forum, TMD gets a lot more publicity than the source and will help to create interest in the new format.

[Smmenen]

I can't even find the source using a simple google search for "The Source" and Magic 1.5 Legacy.

What a POS.

[braves54321]

I can't even find the source using a simple google search for "The Source" and Magic 1.5 Legacy.

What a POS.

Well, just to mention here that that search isn't really fair.

"The Source" is a much more common term than "mana drain." I'm sorry that there is a hip hop magazine that probably has many more followers than people visiting this site as well as starcitygames altogether.  

Also, note that your search of "magic 1.5 legacy" would show The Source forums being the 7th match (once again the word "legacy" would be more common than "mana drain").

I did a quick search search for "magic 1.5 legacy" and found it was the 2nd match.

I did all this using a quick search on msn.

I'm a mod on The Source and I couldn't care less if the 1.5 forum exists here. I don't feel they hurt one another.

However, I do have a problem with someone just flat out calling The Source a pos becuase they can't find it on a quick search, becuase those words/terms are much more common that a term that is found in Magic, "Mana Drain."

[kl0wn]

However, I do have a problem with someone just flat out calling The Source a pos becuase they can't find it on a quick search, becuase those words/terms are much more common that a term that is found in Magic, "Mana Drain."

Perhaps instead of getting your panties in a bunch over it, you should change your name to something less general.

[Peter_Rotten]

Up until now, however, all I'm hearing is this:

I can't even find the source using a simple google search for "The Source" and Magic 1.5 Legacy.

What a POS.

Perhaps instead of getting your panties in a bunch over it, you should change your name to something less general.

 :shock: Well, that's three less Christmas cards that I'm sending out this year.

[Setnakt]

As far as I've seen, it's been pretty clear for a long time that The Suck will never get their shit together. If there's hope for the format through communication, it has to be on a forum other than The Suck. So, if you axe the Legacy forum here, you're either giving priority over the issue altogether to some other function (like bandwidth or moderation effort) or you're voicing your confidence in another forum. If you honestly feel that there's another forum that's proving it deserves that kind of confidence, I'd like to know where it is.

[HuntedWumpus]

Lets keep it, no insults intended, but the general poster here has a much better grasp on what they are talking about then on the source.

[the Luke]

I'm afraid I agree.  From looking at both sites, there's only one or two posters that are any good at The Source, and luckily they both post on the Legacy forums here. Also, if I want to get deck ideas from their site, I have to wallow through much more noise to get through to the good advice/decks.  Lastly, when I try to open a topic on those boards (using tabbed browsing) the topic opens in BOTH the new tab and the one I'm currently using.  This bug doesn't happen on TMD, and it's really irritating.

And some case-in-point scenarios:

Why does the [DTB] White-blue-bullshit thread have Mana Drains in the main topic post?

Why does the Pox PRIMER have a decklist featuring 4 Mindstab Thrulls.  I've never anywhere seen them suggested before, let alone their optimality in the slot discussed.

Please keep the legacy forums here, they're just better quality than the ones at the Source.

[Matt]

Well, that's three less Christmas cards that I'm sending out this year.

Please send mine to Spikey "restrict Long-Term Plans, unrestrict Mind's Desire" Mikey, who I notice has taken up residence on your boards.

[/immaturity]

[Jander78]

I actually like TMD's forums.  Sometimes the view from a vintage players perspective let's me step out side of my "Legacy Shell" and see things from a different angle.  Unless it is a waste of board space/loss of interest, I wouldn't see any reason to close it.  I still visit TMD a lot because I do have an interest in Vintage and I do attend a lot of the big tournaments.  If anything I like the fact that the Legacy forum here sparks interest in the Legacy format in general.

Being from the Source, I am not threatened nor discouraged that a Legacy forum exists on TMD.  I do find it awkward that a simple poll turned into a bashing of websites, but I also didn't realize that there was still a lot of underlying tension between sites.  We are still trying to outlive the "Crybaby" brand we received from the Banned and Restricted announcement on Sept. 1st.

It's obvious that "The Source" is going to have more discussion and more defined forums, because it is dedicated as a whole site to the Legacy format.  We started on TMD about a year ago in the 1.5 forum here and then branched off and started mtgthesource.com.  I see no reason that we should be complaining that they would want to have a forum once again dedicated to the Legacy format, when it is technically where we started from.  (Thanks again Z)

Why does the [DTB] White-blue-bullshit thread have Mana Drains in the main topic post?

The date the thread was started was Aug. 27th.  That was before Mana Drain was banned from the format.

Why does the Pox PRIMER have a decklist featuring 4 Mindstab Thrulls. I've never anywhere seen them suggested before, let alone their optimality in the slot discussed.

I'm no Pox expert, so I would suggest reading the primer, because it is explained to an extent.