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Author Topic: [Deck Discussion] - 4C-C - December's Update  (Read 2068 times)
MaxxMatt
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« on: December 13, 2004, 03:50:24 pm »

For the ones who can't post in the Vintage Section
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Ultima
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« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2004, 07:32:45 pm »

Just so you know, you listed Mindtwist twice in your list.

I think the manabase is very unstable.  It should be known that a control deck can't really function fluidly or be less mulligan likely unless it has 10 blue producing lands and I don't mean fetchs but actual blue producing lands.  You are going on 7 and that's counting the Academy.  Are all those artifact accelerants really necassary if because it seems less useful of have a hand of artifacts and no islands or be faced with a 3sphere first turn and have all those dead cards.

You also seem to be very light on threats, don't you think that more threats might be necassary in order to at least give the deck somewhat of a an early game.  I really have to agree with Toad, that swords is very good right now, what was it that really pushed you to cut them?
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« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2004, 08:17:30 pm »

What do you mean by Crucible of the Void? Do you mean Crucible or Chalice?
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MaxxMatt
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« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2004, 07:15:43 am »

Thanks for the hints about the little typing errors.
Sorry for all the ones who read and remain confused.


@Ultima.

While playing that deck, I felt that the old mana base was unstable if compared with that one.

While I worked on rounding down the total number of lands in this deck, I astonishingly increase the number of "nearly-untouchable-lands". This mana base configuration is far more solid than the previous "all-dual-lands"'s one.

I perfectly know how to play the deck and WHAT should have done not to risk mana screw and color screw.

I summarized it in a few lines in the little article, but my games' experience are enough to say to you that:


1) 90% of the times you can play as a monoU during your first two or three turns of the game.

During those turns you can easily play
Fetchlands for Islands,
Wishes for immediate answers to opponent's treats,
Wishes for V.T. or Drawers,
Brainstorms with Fetchlands,
CoWs to iterate any route connected with lands,
Broken spells ( Mindtwist, Balance, Restricted Spells in general )
E.E. ( with the help of off-color moxen is really common to play an E.E. for 3 on turn 2 for example )

2) After turn three you can search for your duals, ONLY!!! if needed or search for you swamp to be able to use your Skeletals and balck spells with ease.

From that point ( or shortly after that point ) you are able to play ANYONE of your spell with the GREAT ASSUMPTION that your mana base is Wastable ONLY by:

1) Stripmine
2) Smokestacks

There are plenty of broken plays that can be done from the first turn of playing and I don't feel that the deck hasn't the right density of threats to be well played.

If you look at a common 4C-C build, there aren't things more things that can threat the opponent more than my deck would do.

I simply substitute removals with other removals, solutions with other solutions, lands with other lands, winners with other winners.

The total count of spells and threats is nearly untouched.
Why would Old-4C-C be more dense of threats if compared with that one?


Maindeck StPs are perfetly useless against anything that isn't Madness or hybrid forms of other Aggro-Control Deck that are fading out of the scene from now ( Driad.dec, Mask ).

All the other game situations can be dealt with the right mix of Wishes and E.E. thanks to the solidity of my lands and the high number of mana accelerations, that let me easily play them on a mean of turn 2.


Quote from: ultima&toad

I really have to agree with Toad, that swords is very good right now, what was it that really pushed you to cut them?


Swords are the most abused removal cards from a while.
It is the best one of course among all the ones available.


TPS - Useless
-No Creatures Preside
-No Creatures Postside


Atog - Useless
-No Creatures UNTIL he is going to Win Preside
-No Creatures UNTIL he is going to Win Postside


Oath - Useless
-No Creatures on Table when you are able to resolve StP if the player is good. Inability to resolve StP against his creatures when he had them on table and he is winning. Preside.
-Morphlings and CotVs for 1 in the MonoU configuration Postside ( that is FAR FAR FAR better than Oath when you have to face Keeper )


Dragon - useful against not so strong players
-You can easily Wish for them ( removals in general ) and recur them in order to survive. Preside
-They board in Titans more often than you think. You can board in all you removals and you have a very good rate of having solutions for all his treats

On a Side Note. Dragon is going out of the scene from now and ANY good dragon player perfectly now HOW to play around a copule of StPs with his broken spells.



Welder.dec  - Situational
-Preside the "Stps, Fire, Wishes" is exactly as much situational as the "E.E and Wishes' one" with the differences that: I can resolve Wishes faster than before playing around the inability of Welder of being activated when resolved and E.E. are FAR MORE sinergic with the entire deck than any other removals.
-Postside you board in fires, removals, disenchants, r/r and you have a SOLUTION.dec against Welder.dec

On a Side Note
-Plowing a Welder under Trinisphere is perfectly equal to resolving an E.E. or a Wish. The goal is to reach at least 3 mana. And my deck ALWAYS had more than 3 mana on table ( excluding recurring strip and smokestacks of course, but all decks die to them in the same situations )
-E.E. function when tapped and can let you go around Tangle Wire
-Plowing things against decks with Welder is often impossible because their best goal is ALWAYS to put in play a CotV for 1 to slow you down a much as they can.
-I can't die to CotV in any case thanks to E.E. . I can always reoslve them and I can get rid of ALL the chalices with it all at once.


Aggro with MWs.

-Pre and Post side I have good winning rate against them. If they play ONLY some fatties they can't doom me with them

Aggro without MWs.
Pre and Post side E.E. , Wishes and Basic lands are enough to stop their best weapon agaisnt me: Wastelands
 

Control-Slavery - Situational

-Preside and Post side your deck MUST perform as a clock not to die to it. On the other hand, Old-4c-c and New-4c-c don't have different winning rates against it.

If possible, I can abuse of my mana base and my fast mana acceleration to try to stop HIS sequence of threats, with Wishes, Removals and CoWs.
My drawers are comparable with his drawers if he don't have an ACTIVE Welder in play.


MW.Slavery - Useless.

Preside and Post side it tend to lock you down with threats and Chalices.
You have to lay lands, stay a lot with mana open and play ANYTHING only in his eot, when his bombs are sleeping. Doing in this way the matchup is quite good.


Mirrors
Pre and Post side I can win because of my skills and my superior mana base. Period.
I can go with the Wishes-->V.T.--> Stripmine+CoW more frequently than my opponent

On A Side Note Any one of the deck proposed THAT use Wastelands can't touch you. Fish.dec and other Hate.dec are usually doomed ONLY by basic lands.





I'll hope these word would clarify some obscure points.
See you.
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circus
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« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2004, 03:15:04 pm »

Quote from: MaxxMatt
Control-Slavery - Situational

-Preside and Post side your deck MUST perform as a clock not to die to it. On the other hand, Old-4c-c and New-4c-c don't have different winning rates against it.

If possible, I can abuse of my mana base and my fast mana acceleration to try to stop HIS sequence of threats, with Wishes, Removals and CoWs.
My drawers are comparable with his drawers if he don't have an ACTIVE Welder in play.


MaxxMatt:  What is your sideboard plan vs. Control Slaver?  You imply here that CoWs are left in.  Most builds I come up against are stocked with basic lands and Darksteel Citadel.  While CoWs recurring fetches would certainly help with the land race, are they worth keeping post board just for that purpose?

I've found REBs and removal for Welder to be most effective in this matchup.  R&R/Disenchant do not disrupt Control Slaver's strategy enough to justify siding them in.  What would you cut from the main in order to side in your answers?

I'm hypothesizing -2 CoW, -1 Mind Twist, -1 Decree(assuming you run 2) +3 REB +1 F/I  What do you think?
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« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2004, 04:09:22 pm »

I always thought the only way to go with 4c and have a chance was to be a Tinker deck that could Balance at will. Have you tried builds along those lines?
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MaxxMatt
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« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2004, 05:48:07 am »

Against Control Slavery I usually side in 3 Rebs siding out, a Mystical, Mindtwist and a card of choice depending on What build I'm facing ( a single CoW or Mana Crypt are often chosen ).

The match is balanced because both of us had non-blu bombs ( Skeletals, E.E., Welders, Fatties & Slavers ) to counterbalance the increased number of Rebs in both maindecks.

I feel to have an edge against C-S post side because, my 1cc counters are effective against his drawers, while his ReBs are useful only in counterwars and not in ALL the possible counterwars.

Packing in removals for Welders ( situational cards ) is the worst thing to do in a matchup where you can lose at the first wrong choice done before shuffling. IMHO, the matchup could be won on two different levels.

1.0) More effective drawers and cheap counters for his most expensive counters
1.1) After point 1) you should be able to deal with his weapon

I keep CoW in because I always try to win with a CoW+Strip recursion.
I can do it thanks to Wish and V.T.
He could do the same Intuitioning with an active Welder for CoW,Strip,Waste for example.

As any control matchup, the victory isn't written in stone and there is a safe path to follow in order to win any single game.
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