U/R/G Fish Hate

[bmueller]

Everyone's been trying to come up with ways to make Fish good again.  I took some ideas from Jacob Orlove's latest WTF deck and put together this: (the article can be found http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/expandnews.php?Article=8463)

4 Wooded Foothills
3 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Sapphire

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 River Boa
4 Gaea's Skyfolk
2 Waterfront Bouncer

3 Null Rod
3 Blood Moon

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Any combination of Daze, Stifle, or Misdirection (I've been using 2 MisD, 2 Daze)
2 Naturalize
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

SB
4 Artifact Mutation
2 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Fire / Ice
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Annul
1 Null Rod

I feel that this list is much stronger given the metagame of Workshop and Oath decks.  Jacob showed us how to go the basics route.  Now I've gone ahead and optimized it.  Hopefully.  Blood Moon is just plain better than B2B.  Null rod is still needed against combo.

I think bouncers should be fish's weapon of choice against Oath, and they aren't dead cards in other matches like Slaver (Plat Angel) and Workshop (Sundering Titan and other artifact fat), Tinker (DSC), etc.  Blood Moon and Naturalize work as additional threats.  That is 7 total MD answers to either Akroma, Orchard, or Oath, 8 free counters to back them up, and not to mention 5 strips.

This deck can't run manlands, so there's no going the non-creature, claws/bombardment/pool route.  Guilded Drake is another option, but it's reactionary, which means you can't slip it under the counter wall early.

Just some ideas.  I believe Fish is a strong archtype, but it has to keep up with the metagame for it to work; it is, after all, a metagame deck.  Personally, I love Fish and I want to keep trying new things.

Particularly, the SB is focus of debate.  What hate is efficient and reliable?  What is proven weak in testing?

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

Im glad to see someone else has looked at his list.  I have actually been tweaking something similar to his, though not exactly the same.

I think you are making a big mistake in choosing Blood Moon over Back to Basics.  The simple fact is that, while Blood Moon can cause problems, B2B is just svger.  Mountains still produce mana while B2B is along the idea that "Opponents lands producing mana more than once is a bad thing, mmkay?" (10 points for anyone who catches the Magic reference).  I think that right there puts Back to Basics way over the top of Blood Moon.

Also, Null Rod seems like a poor choice to me.  Null Rod used to just devastate everyone, especially combo.  Nowadays, not so much a problem.  I think better cards can fill its spot.  I really like Call of the Herd because it 2 for 1s against control, takes out Juggs, and also is really aggressively costed for its size.

Brainstorm is much better in this deck that curiosity, in my opinion.  Jacob also had this point as you can see from his build.  Fetchlands + Brainstorm = good times (I am sure you are all shocked).  Curiosity is a poor choice with all the random Swords running around the format.

Instead of your 4 slots split between MisD, Stifle and Daze, id make it 2 Stifle, 1 MisD, 1 Artifact Mutation. Mutation is das Sheissnit against Workshop.dec.

I also found that the crucible can push this deck over the top by replaying a few random lands (not necessarily fetch) against any other deck.  I run 1 in my build because it just wins randomly.  It also can get you back the land advantage and card advantage (through fetches and wastes) needed to fight back any long drawn out games, and this can often happen I have found.

Sideboard wise...  Id do somethin like this...

Sideboard
2 Mutation
2 Waterfront Bouncer
3 Energy Flux
3 Fire/Ice
3 Null Rod
2 Stifle

That is for a more diverse metagame, but you can just tune that for what you specifically have problems with.  Fluxes and Mutations make short work of artifacts, Null Rod shuts down combo a bit, Stifle as well, plus doing double duty as LD and anti Oath t3chz0rz.  The extra bouncers are there to shore up the Oath game.  I wouldnt actually advise bringin in the Stifles against Oath, but ya know, its just an added plus if you think its good.

[bmueller]

It is true that Mountains still produce mana under Blood Moon, but it is also true that Workshops, Orchards, Academies and duals can still produce on color mana once under B2B. In other words, Blood Moon doesn't allow opponents to topdeck mana solutions, while that is B2B's fatal flaw.

Now although Call of the Herd is good, I personally think it takes the deck in the wrong direction. Fat like CotH give the deck aggro tendencies, and I think that's a bad idea. The way I see it, Fish needs creatures that have 2 of 3 properties: disruption, evasion, and cost effeciency. CotH only meets requirement #3. Yes, it can trade with jugs all day, but Artifact Mutation is the real reason green splash Fish has a decent match against Workshop, not extra fat. What we do know is that Fish has a horrible matchup against Oath.  The bouncers might be the way to give Fish a chance game 1.

As far as Null Rod taking maindeck spots, I don't know. It seems to hold fish together most of the time. Gorilla Shaman fills some of the same purpose, but it's much slower. There are a couple threads on this debate that we could draw from.

Instead of your 4 slots split between MisD, Stifle and Daze, id make it 2 Stifle, 1 MisD, 1 Artifact Mutation. Mutation is das Sheissnit against Workshop.dec.

The ratio of Stifle, MisD, Daze seems more like personal preference or marginal metagame differences than strategy.

(I am also using Brainstorm over Curiosity. I left that in there just for the sake of discussion.)

[[supa_t(im)]]

What about 3 MD energy flux over null rod?

The way I understood the point of null rod was to serve as mana denial by shutting off moxen and other broken artifact accelerators.  E-flux does the same thing because it makes them pay to keep their moxen, which is obviously not worth it.  It also has the bonus of making all their other artifacts have an upkeep cost.

I tend to agree that Blood Moon is better than B2B, but only in certain situations.  I think when Gay/r was ruling the day B2B was better because it shut off almost all of their red mana and still kept the manlands at bay.  Moon wouldn't have been as effective there because they could still use their red mana, and still cast their threats.  Now with lots of workshop and decks not so centered around red out there, I think blood moon is better.

Hope this helped.

[bmueller]

How about replacing Rod with mox monkeys, maindeck mutation, and Skullclamp?  Keep the same manabase

4 Grim Lavamancer
4 River Boa
4 Cloud of Fairies
3 Gorilla Shaman

4 Skullclamp
3 Blood Moon

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Naturalize
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

SB
3 Artifact Mutation
3 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Fire / Ice
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Annul

I have to test this out.

[newshoes82]

What about 3 MD energy flux over null rod?

The way I understood the point of null rod was to serve as mana denial by shutting off moxen and other broken artifact accelerators.  E-flux does the same thing because it makes them pay to keep their moxen, which is obviously not worth it.  It also has the bonus of making all their other artifacts have an upkeep cost.

Null Rod shuts down combo's moxes completely, while as energy flux only effects the moxen, sol rings, etc, during the upkeep. Combo can just hold its moxen until it's ready to go off and proceed to win, which isn't an issue if you use null rod.

I also just don't agree with skullclamp, it just seems subpar and goes against the overall fish strategy.

[Raven Fire]

Now although Call of the Herd is good, I personally think it takes the deck in the wrong direction. Fat like CotH give the deck aggro tendencies, and I think that's a bad idea. The way I see it, Fish needs creatures that have 2 of 3 properties: disruption, evasion, and cost effeciency. CotH only meets requirement #3. Yes, it can trade with jugs all day, but Artifact Mutation is the real reason green splash Fish has a decent match against Workshop, not extra fat.

First off, CotH is a decent card (and may actually be a good card in this deck for a reason I will get into later), but it is not cost efficient.  Yes, it generates card advantage, but a 3/3 token with no abilities is hardly a bargin at 3 mana.  Phyrexian Negator and Anurid Brushhopper are examples of cost efficient creatures, not Trained Armadon.  It's even worse when it costs 4.

While CotH is a poor tempo card, the fact that it generates card advantage, however, means it should be considered for bmueller's deck.  Part of the reason Fish decks were successful was because they out drew their opponents.  The posted decklist has almost no way to generate real card advantage (other that Ancestral and Walk) since Brainstorm does not actually add cards to the hand.  Curiosity and Standstill were what allowed Fish decks to overwhelm with weenies and consistently draw into (and pay for) FoW.  While CotH doesn't provide additional draw, it does provide a little fat (and some card advantage).  Since that shores up a key weakness in Fish decks, it is worth a look.

[ill_Dawg]

Just a thought, I never have played fish and never will, but if you can support blood moon and B2B why not run both?  If you can dedicate 4 slots, run a 2/2 split.  If you only have 3 slots, run 2/1 split based on metagame/preference. The way I see it, both moons and B2B suck in multiples.  I never play fish, but I have played with both of these cards before. Nonbasics are still nonbasics under the moon, so if you throw a B2B on top of it those mountains stay tapped.  2 different ways to fuck with the mana maindeck that work with eachother means that multiples are better, mana gets messed with more completely, and people can stop arguing about which one is better.  Also, you leave yourself less open to blasts, whatever that's worth.

-=ADAM=-

[NicolaeAlmighty]

I don't know bout both Moon and B2B. I understand the concept, but I think that you'd be better off going 3x one or the other. I personally like B2B more (some decks that Blood Moon would be effective against can merely play around or may even play it).