[Results] - Padova (Italy) 12/12 - 65 players

[Shaman]

I post in this section of the forum since I do not have access to the tournament forum.

Last Sunday 12th of December we had a tournament here in Italy in Padova with 65 players.

Here you are the decklists!

Decklists of each top8 player (sideboard in italics):

Andrea Giorgini, first place:
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
1 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
4 underground sea
2 island
2 swamp
1 tolarian academy
2 tendrils of agony
1 mind's desire
1 gifts ungiven
1 cunning wish
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 rebuild
1 echoig truth
1 timetwister
1 deep analysis
1 fact or fiction
1 tinker
1 memory jar
1 demonic tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 yawgmoth's will
1 yawgmoth's bargain
1 necropotence
4 duress
2 misdirection
1 daze
1 skeletal scrying
1 chain of vapor
1 hurkyl's recall
1 rebuild
1 rushing river
1 tormod's crypt
1 engineered explosives
1 darksteel colossus
1 cranial extraction
1 gilded drake
1 hydroblast
1 ebony charm

Mario Larcher, second place:
1 akroma, angel of wrath
2 island
1 engineered explosives
1 gaea's blessing
1 strip mine
1 time walk
1 tinker
1 swamp
1 demonic tutor
1 yawgmoth's will
1 ancestral recall
1 black lotus
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 mox ruby
1 sol ring
1 mana crypt
1 darksteel colossus
1 lotus petal
1 vampiric tutor
4 force of will
4 mana drain
4 duress
4 brainstorm
4 polluted delta
2 wasteland
4 accumulated knowledge
2 underground sea
4 forbidden orchard
2 tropical island
4 oath of druids
2 intuition
2 spawning pit
1 woodripper
3 stifle
1 phantom nishoba
2 morphling
3 tormod's crypt
2 misdirection
1 rushing river

Alessandro Oppo, third place:
4 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
4 underground sea
3 volcanic island
3 island
1 swamp
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 sol ring
4 force of will
4 mana drain
4 duress
4 acumulated knowledge
2 deep analysis
4 brainstorm
4 cunning wish
1 demonic tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 yawgmoth's will
3 intuition
1 engineered explosives
1 sarcatog
1 psychatog
1 fact or fiction
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
2 engineered explosives
2 annul
1 flying
1 snuff out
1 firestorm
1 rushing river
1 coffin purge
2 rack and ruin
1 hurkyl's recall

Marco Leoni, fourth place:
4 mishra's workshop
3 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 tolarian academy
2 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
3 volcanic island
4 island
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 mox ruby
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 sol ring
4 trinisphere
4 smokestack
3 chalice of the void
1 duplicant
4 goblin welder
2 karn, silver golem
2 sundering titan
1 darksteel colossus
1 memory jar
1 wheel of fortune
2 triskelion
2 crucible of the worlds
2 thirst for knowledge
1 ancestral recall
1 tinker
1 time walk
2 rack and ruin
1 viashino heretic
1 hurkyl's recall
2 blue elemental blast
1 duplicant
3 red elemental blast
1 sword of fire and ice
1 razormane masticore
2 spawning pit
1 jester's cap

Paolo Zanatto, fifth place:
4 savannah lions
4 icatian javeliners
14 plains
1 strip mine
4 wasteland
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial
4 skullclamp
4 soltari priest
4 weathered wayfarer
3 abolish
4 silver knight
4 samurai of the pale curtain
1 lotus petal
1 chrome mox
3 serenity
3 aura of silence
2 maze of ith
2 sword of fire and ice
3 rule of law
2 chalice of the void

Nicholas Baxter, sixth place:
1 mind twist
1 sarcatog
1 psychatog
4 force of will
4 mana drain
3 intuition
4 cunning wish
4 brainstorm
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 engineered explosives
4 accumultaed knowledge
2 deep analysis
1 demonic tutor
1 mystical tutor
3 duress
1 yawgmoth's will
1 black lotus
1 mox sapphire
1 mox emerald
1 mox ruby
1 mox jet
1 mox pearl
1 sol ring
2 polluted delta
3 flooded strand
4 underground sea
3 volcanic island
1 tropical island
3 island
1 shallow grave
1 gush
1 red elemental blast
1 shattering pulse
1 rack and ruin
1 hurkyl's recall
2 annul
1 fire/ice
1 firestorm
1 fact or fiction
1 snuff out
1 berserk
1 rushing river
1 engineered explosives

Luca Lo Bianco, seventh place:
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox sapphire
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 mana crypt
1 library of alexandria
1 sol ring
1 lotus petal
4 dark ritual
4 polluted delta
1 flooded strand
4 underground sea
3 island
1 swamp
1 tolarian academy
2 tendrils of agony
1 mind's desire
1 gifts ungiven
1 cunning wish
4 brainstorm
4 force of will
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
2 rebuild
1 echoig truth
1 timetwister
1 skeletal scrying
1 tinker
1 memory jar
1 demonic tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 vampiric tutor
1 yawgmoth's will
1 yawgmoth's bargain
1 necropotence
4 duress
3 misdirection
2 hurkyl's recall
1 fact or fiction
2 tormod's crypt
1 engineered explosives
1 darksteel colossus
1 blue elemental blast
1 hydroblast
2 echoing decay
1 ebony charm

Michele Frasson, eighth place:
3 worldgorger dragon
1 verdant force
1 ambassador laquatus
1 scriveneer
4 bazaar of baghdad
3 animate dead
2 necromancy
4 squee, goblin nabob
4 force of will
3 stifle
1 intuition
1 lim-dul's vault
2 cunning wish
4 deep analysis
1 time walk
1 ancestral recall
1 entomb
1 vampiric tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 demonic tutor
1 crucible of the worlds
1 mox sapphire
1 sol ring
1 mox jet
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 strip mine
1 mox ruby
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 swamp
1 island
4 polluted delta
1 crop rotation
1 intuition
1 stroke of genius
1 blue elemental blast
1 naturalise
1 chain of vapor
1 hurkyl's recall
2 tormod's crypt
1 engineered explosives
2 chalice of the void
1 caller of the claw
2 verdant force

[Moxlotus]

1 sarcatog

1 sarcatog

14 plains

WTF?!?!  

Last month there was an Italian T8 with 2 Sarcatogs also-why are people playing that card?

And shame on everybody for allowing WW to top 8 (Stanton is going to throw his computer).

[MrZuccinniHead]

I, too, cried when I saw White Weenie.  Italy is always a fun source of humor.

[CrazyCarl]

I suppose it can't be targetted by Red Elemental Blast which makes sense because I believe most Italians are going for a UBr Tog list.  Notice how there aren't any "traditional" Tog lists (Ie, using only Psychatog).  I think it's kind of cute actually <3 Italy

[Negator13]

Is TPS just bad here in America? It consistently wins in Italy but is hardly even played in the U.S. It seems rather hard to hate out since it has basics, FOW and Duress.

[Shaman]

I assume WW is in the top8 due to some easy pairirngs, but I am not sure about that and I do not know the player who achieved this results so I can't say you more on that. I only know he faced in the swiss a friend of mine with UB mask, and his SToPs completely smashed my friend's noughts both games.

Sarcatog is one of the two 'togs of the deck we Italians call T1T (Type 1 Tog). It was first piloted by Lorenzo Fedeli, one of the best Italian player, and, believe me or not, that has proved to be SO good (at least in our metagame) that it is now a consolidated presence in the deck.

[Chaos Blade]

Well even though White Weenie is mostly an awful deck, I think he won just out of the suprise factor and most likely skill too. It does run a crazy engine and Vial , with lots of main deck and sideboard hate. Well I've seen TPS played in some regions like in Michigan and always does well in our weekly top 4's About Sarcatog....It's interesting, could prove some good maybe here.

[JACO]

1 sarcatog

1 sarcatog

WTF?!?!  

Last month there was an Italian T8 with 2 Sarcatogs also-why are people playing that card?

It's not because of Red Elemental Blast, but rather because people over there are playing Cranial Extraction. Look on the Italian message boards on TheAbyss.biz and you'll see a discussion regarding it.

[Dante]

1 sarcatog

1 sarcatog

WTF?!?!  

Last month there was an Italian T8 with 2 Sarcatogs also-why are people playing that card?

It's not because of Red Elemental Blast, but rather because people over there are playing Cranial Extraction. Look on the Italian message boards on TheAbyss.biz and you'll see a discussion regarding it.

I keep up and look at their top 8s every couple of weeks...looking at the Top8's from the last couple of months, I only saw 1 Tendrils deck with Cranial Extraction, maybe the non-top 8 decks had them...

[Phele]

I, too, cried when I saw White Weenie.  Italy is always a fun source of humor.

I would beg you to take care of your words. Italian tournament results are everything else but just a fun source of humor. It's rather interesting to ask, why the great Italian (and Dutch) innovations U/B TPS and T1T aren't played more frequently in the US. TPS is just the combo deck which is the most difficult to hate and can still consistantly win pretty quickly. And T1T just gives you the better opportunities against the problamatic Hulk matchups Fish and Enslaver.

The Italian players have already proven the value of their decks by winning the high quality German tournaments Karlsruhe and Dülmen. White Weenie top8ing is an accident that happens from time to time as Sui Black does. This is just dependent on luck, pairing and good metagaming and doesn't disqualify any tournament.

So before you start making jokes about other players, present some compareable innovations. I also want to point out that both TPS list include Gifts Ungiven. In a deck filled up with so many bombs and answers this card is just gordious. If the deck is constructed right this card is even better than death wish. I didn't see any Gifts in an US top8 yet. Maybe it's time to start a discussion about it.

@Shaman: Did the Deep Analysis and the Fact in the winner list work out? Has Padova been such a control heavy meta that there is more need for so many one-side-, semi-perfect-draw-options.

[MaxxMatt]

JACO & CrazyCarl seemed to me the only ones that analyzed a bit the Pros. and the Cons. of using cards like SarcAtog in a typical Atog build with Red.




While the general trend is of talking and having fun of people - the national sport of the "American Idiots" ( nothing among my words should be considered flames, because I'm just a fun of Green Day  ) -, I would like to point out and underline that :


1) UBr-Togs build have 8 mana artifacts in their decks to abuse of speed and one or two E.E... So there are at least 10 artifacts to sacrifice multiple times to kill with Sarcatog. The damages number should be multiplied at least x2 during the resolution of the real winner of the deck: Y.Will.
2) Against an UBr-tog deck the usual denial plan ( Waste-Shamans ) cannot be so easily applied because of their massive use of basic lands. Historically speaking, Gorilla Shamans alone didn't make a lot of pain to an atog build.
3) This deck usually win during the huge Y.Will's turn.


About the last point, I would like to underline that with a Sarcatog in play, some Moxen and a revolving Y.Will, Cunning Wish for somthing like Berserk or Fling is usually unneeded.

In a minor istance and with minor global synergies, SarcAtog usually does the same work of Psycatog.






 
On the other hand, the only REAL porpouse behing the use of this little and dirty Atog is Cranial Extraction.

But, as Dante correctly pointed out, there aren't a lot of deck that are packing C.Extr. in their maindeck and/or sideboard, but the risk of losing because of a resolved Cranial is always high too.


The frequency of this card is totally dependent by the playing area ( at least here in Italy ) and by the TIME. Some weeks ago, the use of this card ( expecially during our testing session ) was really massive and it underlined the high risk of losing if there are a lot of people playing with it. So we change PROACTIVELY a lot of deck preventing a lot of losses. This trend AUTO-REDUCED the number of people playing with Cranial Extraction.


What Dante saw and read during these weeks are only THE RESULTS of a long and patient chain of little but constants changes done around some archetypes. Unluckily those results cannot show you the works done in the middle of this process. So you cannot feel the inner differences.

"The Hyperfine Structure" of the facts cannot be analyzed with a Telescope but only with a Microscope...





Randomly Losing an entire tourney ONLY because a lucky player can go land, mox, ritual, cranial with FoW backup is really worth the use of a single copy of SarcAtog in any Atog.dec all around the world.







--------


Yesterday, I used 2 Cranial Extractions maindeck in my 4C-C build at an huge tourney at Massa Carrara ( 151 players ), because I feel that this kind of metagamization of the deck can really improve some bad matchups.

My plan proved to be extremely strong against Dragon, Control decks and against Storm.dec.

Those are the tier1 of the moment, so I feel to have done a good work maindeck them.

Why Maindeck Cranial Extraction?
To reduce the rate of facing decks with more different winners.
Post side a lot of decks are packing different winners to protect them from cranials.
I proactively "counter" their plan, kicking them preside.

There are a lot of decks against which a single and resolved Cranial can be considered game breaking and my next tourney report would underline exatly these aspect of the game.

--------


MAxxMAtt

[Toad]

Hmmm White Weenie... And It's terribly designed :/

No Isamaru Hound of Konda.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain and Skullclamp have an awful synergy.
No Kami of Ancient Law.
No Meddling Mage.

Uh

And "WTF?" @ people running Cranial Extraction. It's so bad :<

[VGB]

Hmmm White Weenie... And It's terribly designed :/

No Isamaru Hound of Konda.
Samurai of the Pale Curtain and Skullclamp have an awful synergy.
No Kami of Ancient Law.
No Meddling Mage.

I agree with all but the second point.

Seeing as how Samurai shuts down Welder, Dragon, and Yawgmoth's Will, the fact that it kills the draw engine < the fact that Samurai rapes graveyard dependent decks.

The two may suck in conjunction, but it's like running Null Rod in a deck with moxen (or something to that effect).

[Kasuras]

No Meddling Mage

It's white weenie, and although I clearly see why this card is very good and should probably be played: is it enough to justify the extra dual lands? You don't run that much card drawing stuff, so a waste + crucible could spell trouble. And you don't want that in WW.

I agree on the fact that this build may not be the best to get, but let's be fair: is white weenie a good deck to play? I have a lot of respect for this player, although I don't know how he did it. Perhaps you should too.

Am I also the only one seeing that in a tournament with 65 people the t8 might not be a good reflection of that metagame?

[VGB]

It's white weenie, and although I clearly see why this card is very good and should probably be played: is it enough to justify the extra dual lands? You don't run that much card drawing stuff, so a waste + crucible could spell trouble. And you don't want that in WW.

It's WW with 4 x Aether Vial, by the way.

[Shaman]

@Shaman: Did the Deep Analysis and the Fact in the winner list work out? Has Padova been such a control heavy meta that there is more need for so many one-side-, semi-perfect-draw-options.

Hi Phele,
I can't say anything useful about that Deep Analysis, since I did not have a chance to see Andrea playing or to talk with him about this card. The meta was largely dominated by control: a lot of unpowered fish (most of them Ur, a few of them Uw) and control decks (Oath/Hulk/T1T and some 4CC), with some appearance at the higher tables of combo decks (TPS and other tendrils-build, since dragon-decks were mostly unpowered) and welder MUD. I did run a deck very similar to the winner's deck (only one card different maindeck, deep analysis, since I had chrome mox in its place) and I did realize how STRONG fof and gifts ungiven are maindeck...they are really awesome! I won a couple of games thanks to gifts ungiven, that gave me the necessary protection when I needed it or the necessary bombs to close the game. I strongly suggest this inclusion to any TPS player, and at the moment a lot of combo players here in Italy adopt this card that has proved to be rather good, even more than expected. Discussing the Deep Analysis, I still have scepticism about it, because of its sorcery-speed: probably it fits the deck perfectly for a control metagame, but it isn't the perfect choice in general...I can't say more since I nver tested it seriously.

[Toad]

No Meddling Mage

It's white weenie, and although I clearly see why this card is very good and should probably be played: is it enough to justify the extra dual lands? You don't run that much card drawing stuff, so a waste + crucible could spell trouble. And you don't want that in WW.

4 Flooded Strand, 1 Island and 1 Tundra could probably work fine. And Meddling Mage can name Crucible of Worlds

Aside from that, a deck featuring 4 Samurai of the Pale Curtain, 4 Kami of Ancient Law, 4 Icatian Javelineers, 4 Abolish, 4 Swords to Plowshares and other goodies (Meddling Mage, True Believer, Whipcorder, etc...) could probably be good if tweaked. See :

Dragon : Samurai, Kami, Abolish, STP. That is 16 maindeck Dragon hate.

Oath of Druids : Kami, Abolish, STP, Meddling Mage. 16 too. Spirit Tokens are Draw2s with Skullclamp. Whipcorder is a possibility.

Workshop Aggro : Juggernaut dies to Clamped creatures or to creature + Javelineer. STP, Abolish. Javelineers and Samurai help against Welder. Immune to Crucible of Worlds.

Stax : Abolish, Meddling Mage and, to a lesser extend, Javelineers and Samurais.

Drain Slaver : Meddling Mage, Javelineers, Samurais, True Believer.

WW can pack an insane amount of versatile hate. I'm not saying It's Tier1, just It should get more respect and considerations, especially for budget players. It just auto loses to non Dragon combo. 4 SB Orim's Chant and MD Believers could help though.

WW is probably better than narrow Aggro decks like Food Chain Goblins or Red / Green, because WW can play proactive spells to help surviving, while the others can just pray and try to goldfish faster than their opponent.

[Negator13]

I just want to point out that Samurai of the Pale Curtain reads:

"Whenever a permanent would be put into a graveyard, remove it from the game instead."

This means that its effect only works on permanents that are put into a graveyard from play. Say, if you discard a Dragon from your hand with Bazaar when there is a Pale Curtain out, it does NOT get removed from the game because only cards in play are considered permanents. So unless I am missing something, Samurai is not very effective hate against either Dragon or Thirst for Knowledge, though it does remove an activated Mindslaver, meaning they can't recur it with Welder after using it once.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Moved to Tournament, but then thought better of because there is discussion going on here.

Also GODDAMMIT WHITE WEENIE AGAIN RAAARRR! *overturns table in Hulk-like rage, leaps through wall*

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

This means that its effect only works on permanents that are put into a graveyard from play. Say, if you discard a Dragon from your hand with Bazaar when there is a Pale Curtain out, it does NOT get removed from the game because only cards in play are considered permanents. So unless I am missing something, Samurai is not very effective hate against either Dragon or Thirst for Knowledge, though it does remove an activated Mindslaver, meaning they can't recur it with Welder after using it once.

Dude, think about it. When you animate a dragon, it has to come into play in order for his abilities to trigger. when he leaves play again, he goes to the GY, but since he was in play, he gets RFG. I think I'm right on this. Any dragon players here?

-Bob

[MrZuccinniHead]

I, too, cried when I saw White Weenie.  Italy is always a fun source of humor.

So before you start making jokes about other players, present some compareable innovations. I also want to point out that both TPS list include Gifts Ungiven. In a deck filled up with so many bombs and answers this card is just gordious. If the deck is constructed right this card is even better than death wish. I didn't see any Gifts in an US top8 yet. Maybe it's time to start a discussion about it.

Well that was supposed to be more of a jab at White Weenie and not Italy.  Anywho the metagame, i guess, allows decks like this to do better than other areas.

[onelovemachine]

if you discard a Dragon from your hand with Bazaar when there is a Pale Curtain out, it does NOT get removed from the game because only cards in play are considered permanents. So unless I am missing something

You are missing the interaction of worldgorger dragon and animate dead.  I don't have to be a dragon player to point out that animate dead makes worldgorger dragon a permanent, gets rfg'ed thanks to dragon's comes into play and dragon dies.... at which time it will be removed from the game thanks to the pale curtain guy.

On another note:  I originally dismissed the sarcatog as random and bad... after thinking through it sarcatog is interesting and perhaps worth testing in a UBR tog list.  Psychatog is good because it gets one bigger for each card out of hand which fuels its second ability to rfg cards; it doesn't take too many cards out of hand for that guy to get big.  The sarcatog can chomp on your moxen/ maindeck explosives when its ready to win (reminding me of wishing up a read the runes in extended/ type 2 tog) leaving you with a handful of counter and goodness.  It only takes a couple of artifacts plus yard to make the guy pretty scary large;  it's kind of cool.  On the cranial extraction idea, it seems like tog should not lose to cranial extraction with as much counter/duress nonsense as it runs.  Instead the ability of sarcatog to resist red blasts seems somewhat useful if Italy's metagame is full of hulk builds.  

Gifts ungiven in Italian tps bothers me because I cannot rack my brain to come up with the cards you would tutor for.  Any help?

[Berserk]

I personally don't understand what people are running Engineered Explosives for. It's slow as hell, and it only nails a one CC range. Why isn't Deed seeing play? Granted, Explosives is colorless, but it takes several turns to blow it for any worth usually, where Deed can wipe the board clean the turn after it's played. Cleans up Welders, artifacts, B2B, Oath, and even fatties like Platinum Angel, or Akroma or whatever. Also, Explosives is an artifact, and people usually have more artifact removal than enchantment removal. One of those Hulk builds doesn't even run Brainstorms... and they're both running 4 Cunning Wish... maybe the Italian meta is something far far different from what we're playing. The builds show as such anyway.

[racetraitor]

The problem with deed is that you have to fetch both a Sea and a Tropical to play it, whereas EE is easily cast off moxen. That can be a big difference if you want to get rid of a fast welder and have drain mana up. Also do note that these builds are Urb, and hurting the manabase for such a questionable card as Deed when there's a colorless equivalent in EE is definately not worth it imo. Btw, the 3rd place deck is only 56 cards so that probably explains the missing brainstorms...

[Berserk]

I really don't think Hulk can operate properly as UBR or even UBG for that matter. Hulk is a 4 color deck as far as I'm concerned, and you used green for Deeds, Berserk, and Ground Seal. Running one or two Trops wouldn't affect the manabase so much. I run two UGs, two Volcs, and two Trops. I have no problems at all, and I have red for my great SB cards, and green for Deeds, which is the best board control there is. Not to mention the very kill combo Hulk is based around is a green card. I just think taking green out of Hulk is like taking red out of Control Slaver.

[Shaman]

@racetraitor: thanks a lot, I have just edited my first post adding the 4 brainstorms.

[Negator13]

I don't really understand the Gilded Drake in the TPS sb. Obviously it is meant for oath, but it seems rather bad against them. Akroma has protection from Black which means that if they Oath up Spirit of the Night first and you steal it with Drake, they will then Oath up Akroma, and attack unblocked. Also since Akroma has Vigilance she will be able to block SotN too.

Basically Drake only seems good if they Oath up Akroma first. In that case, fine, its great.  But since 50% of the time, SotN will come up first, all Drake will do is prevent 6 damage one turn. Is that reason enough to run it?

Oh, and yeah, I was quite wrong about Samurai. I was thinking everything just got RFG'd when Dragon went off, inluding Dragon itself.