Optimizing TPS

[Thug]

You mean they open you up to gravehate? I thought your main kill card was Will? Doesn't that die to gravehate too?

Yes it does, but 9 out of 10 times you tutor for that Will, and if you see a crypt you obviously would be getting something else. (Hence, if your in some sort of control even winning with Rebuild + Tendrils becomes easy)

All the instant graveyard hate is pretty mediocre against a will in the mid or late game. They will be able to remove Lotus or Ancestral or a similar bomb, but this doesn't stop your Will from still winning the game.

If a Rector deck rolled over and died to gravehate then maybe I'd be inclined to believe you. It does run other cards however, just like TPS does, which is why neither deck is hosed by gravehate despite having cards that may perhaps be vulnerable to it.

It pretty much rolled over to have about a year ago, but lets pretend that didn't happen

If you up the count from 1 to 5, and instead of drawing into bargain/tutors (which you do with FoF, Gifts etc) you try to Tutor for bargain with Rector you plan get much more focussed around the use of your graveyard. Thus you get more vulnerable to graveyard hate.

If a 4cc card is slow, then what is Gifts? Or Scrying? Are these somehow faster? Is Smokestack considered slow in our current environment?

It's a Sorcery that cost white mana, there a huge difference. Add to that the argument Maxx made about casting a instant eot just to follow it up with a better bomb during your next turn, and I think it's pretty clear.

Is smokestack played in decks without Workshop? There’s no way you can compare smokestack to Rector, and even then, yes Smokestack is considered pretty slow from time to time (I would like to say it's not as a hardcore Artifact player, but it simply is.)

The biggest gripe I have with Deep Analysis, Skeletal Scrying, FoF, and Deep Analysis is that they are all outside the curve. It is very easy to cast anything up to 3 mana, but the 4 mana mark means you have to use a Dark Ritual, Lotus, Mana Vault or other one time use mana source in order to cast it in a reasonable amount of time. That means you are spending two cards in order to get 2-3, which seems really bad.

I think they are out of your imaginary mana-curve, the one you are used too and more confident with. Fact is I rarely use one-shot mana to play these cards. From time to time I pump a Ritual into a scrying, but that’s replacing 1 card with 2, so I can't see this as a bad investment. Most of the time you are spending one card to get a bomb combined with a decent card, or even some mana producers.

There's a huge difference between Draw-sevens and targeted draw, if you got a draw-seven you want to search for as much mana as soon as possible a play the draw-seven (hopefully protected). These other cards lead to the ultimate goal slower, and you don't have the need to play them asap, nor are you forced to win in the same turn as you casted the draw-spell.

You could compare these styles to fighter styles (to get into some wicked comparisons :p). Draw sevens can be compared to aggressive fighters that go for the throat asap. Targeted draw has to be seen as jabs, they don't really cause any damage, but they provoke your opponent to respond, and open up to a real blow. If they decide not to respond, the jabs will eventually overwhelm them (in magic language, your card-advantage becomes too much for them to handle.)

Against old-school stompy and sligh draw-sevens might be better, but in a format full of decks that can draw into sevens card that enables them to stop you and win next turn (or take control). Short: If you want to impress the local bums at your shop go ahead and play draw-sevens (but be a real man and play draw-7 with Returns, which is much more amusing to play and watch.) If you want to make the best out of your changes in a high skilled/powered tournament your best bet lies with the slightly slower route.

You're right, Therapy isn't comparable to Duress. Therapy nails multiple cards, is reuseable, sacs spirit tokens, is better when your opponent has a Welder out, and best of all it gets better when drawn in multiples.

It also misses half of the time, and since you are not focussed on winning asap, you can't get away with naming FoW all the time, which other (faster) decks can. TPS is all about consistency, and Duress is consistent, something that can't be said about Therapy.

And that's it. Now you don't need as much removal, so you could just as easily cut C.Wish/Rebuild instead of business spells.

Go ahead and cut your removal for 3W sorceries and play some games against stax, suddenly it will move from slightly favourable to clearly unfavourable. (I understand I can't prove this claim, but it really shouldn't be hard to see that removing removal is not the way to go. Removal is just another thing that makes TPS more consistent.)

---

There are more issues with Rector, for one a Cap for Bargain, Necro and Will (which happens if you have a kill card in your hand) leaves you with useless crap cards, and almost without way to win since you can't draw cards anymore, if you still had the instants you would be able to draw into some real business, make some storm with Rebuild/Desire and play the lethal Tendrils

Also a rector without a Therapy is pretty useless (sure it isn't bad, but it does nothing against Slaver, Oath etc. Is also makes your opponents Swords useful.

---

If I were to focus on a Rector deck I would either go the way the last Duelmen showed (combine it with much more traditional combo pieces and add some oath components to get a deck filled with mana and bombs). Or I would try to build it with both Duress and Therapy and go for a faster Rector, before your opponent gets time to use his hand.

Koen

[Rico Suave]

I apologize if you feel flamed, it was not my intention.  Critique is hard to take especially if you've put a lot of work into your deck.  If I'm out of line then I'll stop posting.  Obviously many of my points were missed, and I simply don't feel like trying to wade through all the sarcasm.

I was simply making for the possibility that a 4cc card which finds Bargain could potentially be better than other 4cc cards which give you 2-3 cards.  You could even SB back in your 2-3 card draw spells so now they're left with dead gravehate!

[Grand Inquisitor]

The inexperienced (and I'm certainly not talking at you, Rico) may not realize how different the thrust of TPS and Rector based decks are.  I don't think you can really attempt to make arguments on one side for how to fit rectors into TPS (you need another color, and therapies, and...), and you can't make arguments as to why rector is strictly obsolete, since I think it's an extremely underutilized 'engine', especially now, when hate for it is at an all time low.  For the purposes of this thread I don't think there's a point to splashing rectors, as it really requires a different deck altogether, i.e. not TPS, to be optimal.

Regarding TPS, I have a few minor points/questions.  I see people running misdirection and daze in their 'counter' slot for the SB.  Why not Flash Counter?  I used this in a psuedo-casual helm/future sight deck, and it was an excellent wish target.  I can see it being equally effective here without being nearly as situational as the other two choices.

As far as Tinker in the maindeck, I try to think of the decision from the standpoint: "is memory jar good enough by itself?"

The deck doesn't seem to have trouble ramping up to 5 mana (hardcast means welder doesn't matter), and, for most intents and purposes,  memory jar does act as 'targeted draw' since you get to use all 7 cards, and your opponent can most likely only use a small number of them at best.  Since tinker->darksteel/plat does give you much better diversity against various matchups and cap/extraction games 2&3, it seems like a natural fit.  Not to mention, going tinker>lotus>yawgwill adds another broken play.

[Thug]

*EDIT*

Let's forget about the whole rector thing (or at least in this thread, feel free to open your own thread though, Rico).

---

Regarding TPS, I have a few minor points/questions. I see people running misdirection and daze in their 'counter' slot for the SB. Why not Flash Counter? I used this in a psuedo-casual helm/future sight deck, and it was an excellent wish target. I can see it being equally effective here without being nearly as situational as the other two choices.

Daze and Misdirection are "free". I'm not sure that Daze is worth the slot (it actually looks better in the maindeck than it does in the sideboard), but Misdirection has certainly been pulling it's weigth for me.

Another option I have been looking into is Divert. It dubbles with Misdirection, but still has it's uses, as often being a hard counter in a counter war, for just a single mana. It becomes better when you side either Divert or MisD into your deck, but I'm not sure it's worth a slot either.

Right now I hope i'm missing a great sideboard card, because I have about three cards that could be cut (in my sb) if there would be a more appealling option. (Right now I could even put Tinker + Jar + Angel in my sb   )

Koen

[Phele]

I really like the new Italian TPS Version as I was a big proponent of Gifts Ungiven since it came out. With the added tutor power it moves more in the Death Long direction still being slower but harder to hate with better matchups against control and WS decks.

So after the compliments (great work Maxx and all the others ) I'm interested if anybody thougt about adding red as a third color. As far as I see there are "four" Draw7s I would never like to cut: Timetwister, Tinker, Yar and Wheel of Fortune. Sure a third color weakens your manabase a bit, but it also gives you the oppurtunity to play burning wish main, which seem to be a great option after adding two Gifts main. So you can allways Gift for win conditions or solutions without a problem. In this configuration Cranial Extraction is no problem anymore. I gives you the added bonus of playing a great one-Mana-hardcounter in the sideboard: Pyroblast.

Playing two different Wishes main seem to be counterproductive for the sideboard, with almost just one-ofs but this isn't a disadvantage for a Gifts-player.

My landbase looks like that:

3 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Academy

The bombs maindeck are:

1 Necro
1 Bargain
1 Yag Will
1 Mind's Desire
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tinker
1 Yar

Solutions:

1 Rebuild
1 Echoing Truth
1 Burning Wish
1 Cunning Wish

Counter (reactive and proactive):

4 Fow
4 Duress
1 Burning Wish
1 Cunning Wish

Win conditions:

1 Tendrils
1 Burning Wish
1 Cunning Wish

I think with two Gifts this is a perfect configuration to give you the best flexibility. Frantic Search and FoF are both not really needed in the maindeck, when you can play wheel of fortune.

My Sideboard for this configuration looks like this in the moment:

2 Hydroblast
1 Pyroblast
1 Misdirection
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Meltdown
1 Energy Flux
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rushing River
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Brain Freeze
1 Tendrils of Agony

What I really don't like is Brain Freeze and Tendrils blocking two slots, but I guess this is something I cant avoid. For sure this can be adapted for different metagames. As you can see, there is not much need for grave hate in my area, but more for anti artifact goodies. So far I'm really satisfied by the testing results with this version. I can see the U/B version working properly as well, but I'm a little concerned about the matchup-analysis. Hasn't been control allways been the more preferable matchup for TPS. By adding more single-target-draw you strengthen the control-matchup even more but weaken the aggro-matchup, which never has been that easy for TPS as it is for Death Long. It is meta dependent but I would reccomend to leave at least the mentioned four Draw7s main AND to add two Gifts Ungiven as eot draw/tutor-power.

Nice work and nice thread, Phele

[jazzykat]

WRT: Adding a third color for a draw 7 and burning wish

It could be good (after all this is  combo) but I think that you seriously have to weigh the slight weakening of your mana base and the slightly slower play style of tps versus shop decks.

The power of a draw 7  is undeniable but played against a workshop deck (which seems rather popular) on a turn other than 1 (when you either go first after dropping your fast mana, or them having a slow start (maybe an oxymoron for a shop deck)) and not winning that turn lets them unload with a from a freshly stocked hand. There is also the more minor threat of wheeling artifacts into the yard for their welder.

WRT: burning wish it is no doubt powerful and very useful(after all it was restricted) but don't you have enough blue answers with rebuild and the like to get that turn you need to go off against workshop decks?

To sum it up I don't feel that weakening your mana base (even slightly) for wheel, and a burning wish is worth it IF you face lots of workshop decks. For metas with more control decks and aggro I would say go for it because you get more flexibility, a bit more brokeness, some immunity to an extraction, as well as using gifts more effectively.

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

Checking back in here...

Its official... The Italians went and broke the deck in half.  I have two versions right now, my last version before going to the full Italian version, and the full Italian version.  Of the two, I think the Italian build has a slight edge in power however the deck is much harder to run properly because of the lack of cards that just say "Hahah, gg BOYZ!".  Their version is a bit more skill intensive, just proving once more, us Americans are fat, lazy, and dumb... Ignoring Meandeck.

If given the choice between running either build, Id probably go with my last one, which is merely 3 cards different from the Italians list.

-1 Deep Analysis
-1 Cunning Wish
-1 Underground Sea
+1 Tinker
+1 Memory Jar
+1 Island

The only reason for these changes are that Tinker-> Jar has a lot of raw power that just win if you do it first/second turn and Im not used to playing around 4 mana instants just yet.  The Island over the Sea is cuz I have The Fear of getting my ass wastelanded out of a game, and Id rather make sure I can get all the basics I need on the table.

Id advise a few more people to try to understand the Italians move to a more instant based deck, less b0rken, more inevitable deck.  All the one sided insanely powerful cards mean there isnt the problem with Stax or other control going "Hey look at this double FoW hand with 2 random blue cards, sucks for you TPS player!".  I really think any people who doubt the power of their version should play it a bunch and realize that it has less raw power, but with a bit of good playskill, the deck is a lot more resilent, a nice trait in such an extremely volatile environment.

Good job to MaxxMat and any other Italians for rebreaking TPS.  (Which Id really wish was called Office Space... you know, TPS reports, heh, I thought it was funny)

[Mixing Mike]

I'm really confused as to why you all run wishes.  Just play your H. Recall/Rebuild MD.  

Really, how many times have you won because you wished for Brain Freeze.  If you had that much mana and resources to spend, they you should've found your Tendrils.  I feel that Wishes are like traning wheels for the deck, and therefore, not optimal.

[Shaman]

At first, I was one among the players that did not like the wishes (cunning wish, I mean). Then, some of my friends convinced me to try it, at least in our playtesting. The result is that I can't play the deck WITHOUT it now, since I learned how many things you can do about it. I nearly never use the wish to get that damned thing called brain freeze: but it still wins game for me, getting me that skeletal I was desperately looking for, or that beb I was hoping to have to sack that painful pyrostatic pillar before going off, or that misdirection I was willing to play to force my bargain through, or....well, you catched my point.

---

About phele's post, I do really like the "burning wish idea": as phele pointed put, that card has actually a strong interaction with the gifts ungiven new style of the deck....burning + tendrils + 2 bombs (yawgmoth's will and duress, for example) = I am going to win anyway, no matter what your choice is. However, it sadly requires a third color. The mana base phele proposed is quite strong since you still have 4 basics but...I fear the lonely red mana source is not enough. I am convinced of this since I have played TPS UBr for a couple of months and the one red mana producer (except lotus, ruby and petal) was not enough, really, to cast even only one red spell (as wheel is) reliably.

I fear TWO "red mana lands" are required....at the cost of one swamp, maybe, looking at phele's list.

This said, good work people! This thread is really good.

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

Ummm... we are just gonna ignore that fact that both Rebuild and H.Recall/Chain of Vapor is already in the deck.

Cunning Wishes are there because they are bounce spells number 3 and 4 (Echoing Truth, Chain of Vapor), counterspells 5 & 6 (Daze, MisD), extra draw spells (Meditate, FoF/Gifts), they can to kill welders (BEB/HBlast), stop Dragon/Rector/Welder Recursion (Funeral Charm), get Brain Freeze to kill if you lack Tendrils or anything else you need/want.  Its just a nice bit of versatility.  I particularly dont think its needed to run more than 1, so I just run the lone Wish, and fetch it if I need it.

Its very possible that Wishes just get in the way, but for now, they work well at what they do and so I, and many others, choose to use 1 or 2 as we see the need.

If you could propose a better alternative Im sure people would look into using it.

[Mixing Mike]

How's about this for an idea,  Let's play a better mana base, and more threats/bombs to use to combat against control.  Gifts Ungiven is nice and all, but the wishes just need to go.  You lose the space you had for Tinker->Colossus which takes to many games to be ignored IMO.  You also lose the spot for an extra Draw 7 like D. Returns or Windfall.

Also, it feels like by using Gifts, you rely to much on what you have tutored up via Gifts, rather than working like storm based combo.  I've never really seen this deck run out of gassy spells unless it was a Bargian/Necro drawing 13 mana sources.  Now, I'm not saying Gifts is bad, in fact I like it.  I'm just saying what it feels like.

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

I dont understand some of the things you say... You make the bold statements about what should be done, but you don't make suggestions or ideas as to how to do them.  It would be nice if you'd contribute to instead of demanding others to do it for you.

But with that said, you want us to make a rock solid mana base more solid? Wtf?  I dont think anyone here has a problem with the mana base in the least.

We need more threats/bombs?  Every card in the deck either makes mana to casts bombs and threats, gets bombs and threats, or is a bomb and threat, and of the 3 categories, there are mostly bombs and threats after mana sources.

A wish is 1 slot... Tinker & Colossus are 2.  Colossus is slow.  Turn 3 kill at the earliest with a turn 1 tinker.  Tinker -> Jar turn 1 is gonna be a turn 2 kill more often that not, turn 3 at the slowest.  Colossus can be dealt with or raced, its harder to stop a tendrils with a storm count of 15.

Windfall and Diminishing Returns are miserably bad in this deck.  Why fill up both player's hands when you could just fill up yours?  Windfall is the weakest draw7 next to Returns, and many people don't even play Time Spiral or Memory Jar in this deck, both of which are considerably stronger than Windfall or Returns in this deck.  I thought it was decided that draw7s that are either symmetrical (Windfall) or slightly worse for you (Returns) or even better for you, merely expensive (Spiral) are not what this deck wants.

I dont think you have extensively tested Gifts because if you did, you are often setting up Yawgmoth's Win into a gigantic Tendrils.  Most of the time you are not going for Bargain or Necro.  The Will is sooo much better than both, you rarely would ever want to get either of the others.  Gifts just enables you to get Will or whatever spells you need to explode in a flurry of card drawing, mana sources, and high storm counts.

Since when is tutoring bad?  Gifts is when Demonic Tutor meets Fact or Fiction.  Whats not to absolutely love?

I would like to understand where you are coming from better, but it seems like you didn't really explain your arguements in any amount of depth.  If you could take the time to put up your arguements, preferably with some good backing and proof, it would be much more productive I think.  (Not flaming, just a bit confused)

[Whatever Works]

I will try to sum up Mixing Mikes post because I agree with him 100%. Basically he is saying...

Why run reactive cards like Cunning Wish to improve your control matchup etc. when your running 4 duress 4 Fow and 2-3 Rebuild/Chain of Vapor/Hurkyl's in the maindeck... That leaves you with an already strong matchup vs. Said deck. Why not run more broken cards like an extra draw 7 or tinker that just win games instead of messing around with cute tricks...

In testing I have started to really dislike cunning wish, and i refuse to add red into the deck, because if i did i might as well start adding in green next and making the deck draw7.dec the model of inconsistency.

It seems like every1 here is worried about losing to control etc... I am not even concerned about that matchup the smallest bit... Hell, I feel stax is also a good matchup for me, and any aggro deck with the acception of 5/3 is a joke... What does worrie me are the other combo decks... This deck has no good answer for belcher cept duress/FoW... and thats not very comforting at all...and i cant say that im to comfortable with the TPS mirror match, because the winner can be decided by whoever has the opening hand Duress/FoW in many cases...

This being said i am adding stifles to the board for TPS/Dragon/Belcher... because Stifle is always usful vs. TPS because many versions now run 6 fetches and also win with storm... We also know what stifle can do do dragon and belcher... but those matchups should be much more important that the easier matchups people talk about the most.

Kyle

[Negator13]

I have to admit, I absolutely hated the Tutor TPS when I first saw it a couple days ago. I couldn't even begin to understand in theory why you would want to cut Draw 7's from a Storm based combo deck to make room for expensive, instant speed, and only 2 for 1 draw spells. In theory. On paper, Gifts looks mediocre at best, and FoF, Scrying, Frantic Search, etc. al look really weak. But the fact of the matter is, I still tested it out- tested, against real opponents, not goldfished- and the deck is so much better its unreal.
From my original start with draw 7 TPS a couple weeks ago, I always hated Windfall and Time Spiral. They won a couple games, yes, but only because I spent incredible amounts of time and cards setting them up, and because my opponents didn't have a Drain or FoW up to stop me. Even after they resolved, a win was in no way guarunteed; my 7 cards are random and my opponents got a new hand too.
However, I never considered Tinker/Jar to be subpar, until I built the Italian list and subbed them out for the 4 mana drawers. The difference is huge! A resolved Gifts always means I WIN as soon as I untap. Neither FoF, Scrying, or Gifts help my opponent in any way, either. Tinker/Jar is fine and dandy in goldfishing and against random aggro.dec you find on MWS, but against the majority of today's Tier 1 and 2 meta, its actually pretty damn bad. I never want to pop Jar if my opponent has a Welder out, I never want to cast it if they have UU up, I hate using it the turn I play it, and it strands my Tendrils facedown on the table a good percentage of the time. Not to mention it makes my opponent's Brainstorms golden. FoF and Scrying, on the other hand, have no drawbacks, and usually do the exact same thing as Jar, which is set me up for the win next turn. Except, I can use them during my opponent's EOT, and I don't give a damn whether they have a 1/1 for R untapped or if they have a Brainstorm in the top 7 of their deck.
In my opinion, replacing the Draw 7's with the 4 mana bombs does nothing but good things for TPS. Doing so bolsters TPS's natural strengths while improving a shaky matchup, Stax. Your aggro matchup is slightly weakened, but A. you're playing combo, B. you still have access to Tinker/DSC post-board, and C. No one plays aggro in T1    The real "problematic" tradeoff is that your combo matchups get weaker than they already were. Not to be overlooked, for sure, but let's face it, other Combo was never your strongpoint, while MWS decks and Control make up 75% of the field. Plus, you have myriad sideboard options for the other combo decks, including Cranial Extraction, Stifle, additional hand disruption, Platinum Angel, etc.
My current list is almost exactly the same as the one Maxxmatt linked to on page 3, except, like Thug, I'm using 2 Rebuild and Scrying over Deep, and like Maxxmatt I'm running 14 land, 1 Wish, and 1 Frantic Search.

Here's a question to the general public: How many Underground Seas do we really need? I almost never fetch for them against anything with Wastelands (read: Every deck in T1). I'm considering doing something like this for a manabase:

3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
10 Mana Artifacts

[Thug]

Mixing Mike, it would be nice if you could explain some of your opinions a little more. Like, why do you think an extra draw-seven and or the tinker engine is better than Wish(es).

IMO this deck is all about resolving Necro/Bargain/Will. It's hard to win without these by just ramping up draw-sevens/draw spells, since you lack some of the explosive mana (diamond, chrome, fastbond, ESG etc). Often still the only way to win after a drawseven is resolving a Will (even in version with more draw-sevens).

Wish does help resolving that bomb you want to, by fetching draw/counters/protection. A draw-sevens is more of a gamble, you want to try and resolve that bomb before you play your draw-seven, but most likely your bomb will be stopped and your draw-seven will refill your depleted opponents hand. If you got stuff like Swarm and ESG this often is of little consequence, since you have sufficient protection, and you have enough explosive mana to rely on winning in the same turn.

There have been versions of TPS with all draw-sevens, but you'll see they often include more moxes and sometimes even LED. I don't think theres a decent way in between these two options, although I did take up pretty long to figure that out, since draw-sevens just feel busted when you play them, and losing a game after a draw-seven always was because you "only drew crap" from your draw-seven.

Another thing I can't stress enough is that having wishes makes your matchups pre-sb versus Stax much better.

---

Here's a question to the general public: How many Underground Seas do we really need? I almost never fetch for them against anything with Wastelands (read: Every deck in T1). I'm considering doing something like this for a manabase:

3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tolarian Academy
10 Mana Artifacts

Negator, I'm glad to see you like the list,
On your Sea question, in my metagame there still seem to be a good number of decks without wastes, and Sea are the superior option against them, going down to 3 is still a very viable option though, but I haven't gone as far as going down to only 2.

In theory there's little that can go wrong, you get a slightly higher change at having a hand with double island etc, but often that hardly a problem.
I'm still concerned about the double swamp though, and this is mostly because of brainstorm:

Having a Swamp and a Brainstorm blows if you have no other lands for obvious reasons, but it also is less good if you get a Swamp and a Fetch combined with a Brainstorm, since you wont be able to Brainstorm first and then fetch, but you will have to reverse the order. For these reasons I don't really like the second swamp, and I see little reason for the second since all the reasons Maxx stated for the second swamp can be accomplished with a Sea as second land too.

With your new mana-base you really have to start thinking about B2B in your sideboard, since it becomes almost too good not to play it. I'm not sure if it's needed, but it sure deserves some more thought.

Koen

[mongrel12]

@Draw7s and Tinker: I can't help but reiterate Negator's point that you never really want to cast these if a) your opponent has UU open b) a welder in play c) if your opponent is going to take another turn.

@Memory Jar: Hardcasting jar can be fine off two rituals, but in most cases you need to pass the turn after casting it, and your opponent generally will a) destroy the memory jar b) win (given the speed of the format, this is a definate possibility. Right now i have Tinker and Colossus in the board to sb against Cranial Extraction and non-slaver control. I've found that the Collosus game 1 is generally really bad against most non-fish decks (sure he steals games, but if im running tinker id rather get Jar, and while hardcasting him can be fun, drawing him just pisses me off to no end)

@C-Wish: Before i actually realized that the deck was NOT draw7 I really hated this slot. However, Wishing for Skeletal/BEB/Stifle/Bounce can be instrumental, and the wish gives u the flexibility that md bounce does not (i find that running more than 2 bounce MD is unnecessary, except in a very heavy stax/shop metagame) Its important to remember that TPS is Combo/Control, and as such, running flexible, somewhat reactive cards is not necessarily a bad thing (i was testing Daze in the MD for a while, and it proved amazing against control, but was eventually cut because of deckbuilding constraints).

Since currently run only 1 Tendrils, which hasnt bothered me at all except in the TPS mirror (which doesnt exist in the United States) cunning wish for Brain Freeze wins a small but significant portion of games. Cunning Wish also means that you dont simply roll over to Cranial Extraction as well.

@Burning Wish: Weakening the manabase isnt worth the added utility.

@Cutting underground sea: Hypothetically i could see going down to 2, but Turn 1 Duress is an essential part of the gameplan, so drawing lots of islands could be a pain

[Negator13]

Anyway, I think this thread is at the point where we have fleshed out the various maindeck options quite well, and it's time to look closer at sideboard cards. If you run C. Wish (and you should, IMO) you're going to need some portion of your board to be an instant toolbox.

BeB
Scrying
MisD
Daze
Brain Freeze
Rebuild/Hurkyll's/Truth/Chain/River

NOw, the main issue at least for me is what to use for the non-instant, actually boarded in cards. If you don't run Tinker MD, you're going to want Tinker and DSC board, first off. Other than those two, however, there are quite a few ways to take it.

You can run:

Permanent-based hate like B2B, Energy Flux, Defense Grid (not a good idea IMO), or Engineered Plague

1 of Tutor target hate cards like Claws of Gix, Gilded Drake, Engineered Explosives

More Instants (Multiple Stifles, MisD's)

Sorceries etc. such as Cranial Extraction

Which of these plans would you use, and with what specific cards? It depends on whether you're running Draw 7's or the Tutor build, of course.

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

I just wanted to put out a request to MaxxMat or any Italian speaking person to translate a copy of MaxxMat's mini-primer found in the link on page 3 (i believe) because Im sure he has a good bit to add beyond just the revamped decklist.

As far as the sideboard goes...  I love my lone Cranial Extraction like a West Virginian loves his little sister (no offense, its only a little illegal).  I find that having the Extraction means I can play Turbo-Extraction.dec against other Combo and some variants of Oath.

I would like someone to explain the purpose of MisD in the sideboard to me.  I honestly don't understand its application and where it would be more useful than lets say... Duress because having 2 MisDs implies siding 1 or both in, and Im not sure when or why you'd use that.

Even against any random deck with Welders I never really feel the need to side in the Hydroblasts.  For the most part, the deck can just outrace Workshop.dec and I didnt think it was worth it to water down the maindeck with the blasts.

Should they come in for Duresses?  I always thought that the power of duressing away a turn 1 3sphere was more important the risk of hitting a good artifact when a welder is out because you can always just not cast the duress until you are just making sure its safe to go off.  Also, most Stax variant decks run a relatively high number of draw spells and artifact mana sources, so its not too much of a risk early on to fear giving your opponent some sort of advantage, I figured.

Whats everyone else's opinions?

[Mixing Mike]

Mixing Mike, it would be nice if you could explain some of your opinions a little more. Like, why do you think an extra draw-seven and or the tinker engine is better than Wish(es).

Well Koen, this is the way I see it...

Why run Scrying in a slot where a draw 7 would be better?  You'll draw more cards for less mana.  Sure there's the double sided effect, but really, with TPS, it's not nearly as big of a deal unless you give them some nutty god hand.  I also feel that the instant speed isn't nearly as important as mana efficiency is in a combo deck such as TPS.

However, my biggest problems with Wishes is that they're good to break topdeck mode, however the game doesn't really fall into that state very often with my very limited experience with the deck.

The Tinker engine is something I'm totally sold on.  I haven’t had any real tournament experiences with TPS, however, my friend Alden has (he's on vacation right now and thus unable to post).  He has told me time and time again that the Tinker->Colossus has single-handedly won him a total of about 15-20 tournament matches.  That is NOT something to look down upon at all.  It's a really good thing under Trinisphere, giving you  another way to end their presence in the game (sans an active Welder).

As for adding red, I don't think it's worth losing the decks strongest factor (stable 2 color mana base with basics of each color) for a Burning Wish and/or Wheel of Fortune.  If you played Mox Diamond over Chrome (not a highly suggestive action) then I could see running Wheel with Lotus Petal, Black Lotus, Mox Diamond, and

[Thug]

@Mongrel
I honestly can find a word in your post I can disagree with, no matter how hard I try  

@Burning Wish
It doesn't seem all that hot to me since it will take up too much space in the sideboard to make it worth playing. You want to have at least a Tendrils, a DA and some sort of destruction to make the burning wish flexible enough.

Why run Scrying in a slot where a draw 7 would be better? You'll draw more cards for less mana. Sure there's the double sided effect, but really, with TPS, it's not nearly as big of a deal unless you give them some nutty god hand. I also feel that the instant speed isn't nearly as important as mana efficiency is in a combo deck such as TPS.

This is something I could have said when playing draw-seven etc, and as I said before it's hard to let down the draw-sevens since they seem so busted. But looking at the metagame, one-sided draw at instant speed just looks plain better to me for various already stated reasons. You really dont wont your opponent to draw into drain + fow, nor into walk + will etc etc.

---

The sideboard:

Even against any random deck with Welders I never really feel the need to side in the Hydroblasts. For the most part, the deck can just outrace Workshop.dec and I didnt think it was worth it to water down the maindeck with the blasts.

To me it's mainly there to deal with stuff like Blood Moon, Pillar etc. You could bounce them too, but having a destruction spell for a single mana is pretty good and it only takes up 1 spot. Against some red based decks it's pretty good to Sb in since they often have REB's.

BeB
Scrying
MisD
Daze
Brain Freeze
Rebuild/Hurkyll's/Truth/Chain/River

Hydroblast is slighlty better than BeB if you plan on sideboarding it in ever, since it can raise the storm count more easily.
Scrying, MidD, Brainfreeze, Truth, and a Rebuild/H. Recall seem uncuttable to me.

NOw, the main issue at least for me is what to use for the non-instant, actually boarded in cards. If you don't run Tinker MD, you're going to want Tinker and DSC board, first off. Other than those two, however, there are quite a few ways to take it.

I'm not sure on boarding in Tinker + Colossus still, I actually think Platinum Angel might be better from time to time, since people don't see it coming. I need some more testing with it though.

You can run:

Permanent-based hate like B2B, Energy Flux, Defense Grid (not a good idea IMO), or Engineered Plague

1 of Tutor target hate cards like Claws of Gix, Gilded Drake, Engineered Explosives

More Instants (Multiple Stifles, MisD's)

Sorceries etc. such as Cranial Extraction

I really like 2 Energy Fluxes.
If you see a lot of oath a single hate card for it seems logical (Claws, Pit, Plague)

EE I like pretty much because it's almost the only destrction you can run. It can destroy Chalice itstead of bouncing it, and it's also a pretty good card against Oath.

Cranial Extraction I haven't tested, but it seems pretty narrow, as stated TPS shouldn't die to it, Oath only gets crippled, but can still get in control of the game so that leaves few decks that really lose to this card (Dragon maybe).

---

This is my current sideboard

1 Hydroblast/BeB
1 MisD
1 Truth
1 Rushing River (proved pretty good so far)
1 H. Recall
1 Rebuild (I like having acces to a totall of 4 bounce all artifact cards)

1 Ebony Charm (rarely used)
1 Skeletal Scrying

2 Energy Flux
2 EE

(currently testing)
3 Phyrexian Negator (better than expected)

(cards I also want to test)
1 Tinker
1 Platinum Angel
x B2B

Koen

[Phele]

I still don't agree with the cut of almost any draw7s. You lose too much of your explosiveness you sometimes need to finish the game quickly. FoF and Frantic Search absolutly don't give you these possibility. I tried out the version just with Twister and it came out, that the allready good control-matchup - sorry, but I never had that many problems with Oath and Drain Slaver - improved, but it much more frequently happened that you lose against random R/G-Beats-Crap. And this is something you have to face in tournaments not just tier 1 decks. FCG, which hast been a walk in the park before has become harder. I see the disadvantages of Windfall and Time Spiral and adding a third color, but tinker + Memory Jar are uncutable. So you don't even have to think about adding tinker to the sideboard. A version with just Timetwister is too slow. If you're looking for good one-sided-draw, why not play Future Sight. It has much more of a game-breaking effect than FoF.

Platinum Angel: I would to get some points in which specific matchup this one is better than Darksteel Colossus. I just see its worth in the combo-matchup where it is just too slow. You won't get it out quick enough against Belcher and Death Long. Against Aggro, Colossus is just superior. I kills quicker and its harder to kill. Which good Aggro, Aggro-Control or Control-Deck doesn't have an easy way to deal with the Angel. Even WS-Decks are running Seal of Cleansing main now.

@ Thug: I don't see a problem by mixing up the two types of TPS because they never existed. TPS has allways been a mix between One-sided-draw, draw7s and tutoring. By adding Gifts and FoF you just strengthen the tutor/one-side-draw-power a bit, but it's not, that TPS hadn't have that before. With Ancestral, Mind's Desire, Necro. Bargain it allways had the best one-sided-draw. In my eyes, the new versions of TPS are chainging the archetype from combo-control to control-combo. Your thougts about adding more Energy Fluxes and B2B is just a good hint for that. On that route you will come to a point, where you can ask yourself why not add Mana Drains and more Gifts to fully use the power of this spell, skeletal and FoF. You allready play three basic Islands.  

I absolutly agree, that the addition of Burning Wish isn't neccessary. But as you said, you just need three side-board-slots for it, something you have just filled up with Phyrexian Negators. And these slots can help the general gift strategy. Cabal Therayp for example is and added disruption in the mix. meltdown another anti-artifact-tool.

[Thug]

I still don't agree with the cut of almost any draw7s. You lose too much of your explosiveness you sometimes need to finish the game quickly. FoF and Frantic Search absolutly don't give you these possibility. I tried out the version just with Twister and it came out, that the allready good control-matchup - sorry, but I never had that many problems with Oath and Drain Slaver - improved, but it much more frequently happened that you lose against random R/G-Beats-Crap. And this is something you have to face in tournaments not just tier 1 decks. FCG, which hast been a walk in the park before has become harder. I see the disadvantages of Windfall and Time Spiral and adding a third color, but tinker + Memory Jar are uncutable. So you don't even have to think about adding tinker to the sideboard. A version with just Timetwister is too slow.

This probably also depends on your metagame, since I can almost count on not seeing any R/G etc. Often here we have a powered percentage around 90%, and that rarely includes any non-artifact aggro. Against artifacts you can buy time with Bounce and still win in time. So racing is rarely a matter for me.

In a format filled with Welders Tinker + Jar loses a lot of it's power. Maybe in a format with R/G beats you can't see losing them, since the best thing your opponent can do is bolt you. But when people get active slavers, targets to replenish, targets to animate, things to flashback, etc. Tinker + Jar just makes less sense.

A version with just Timetwister is too slow.

Italian makes top 8 with them all the time, so stating this makes little sense, if you would add (... in my metagame...) I could see your point, but it really makes no sence right now.

Platinum Angel: I would to get some points in which specific matchup this one is better than Darksteel Colossus. I just see its worth in the combo-matchup where it is just too slow. You won't get it out quick enough against Belcher and Death Long. Against Aggro, Colossus is just superior. I kills quicker and its harder to kill. Which good Aggro, Aggro-Control or Control-Deck doesn't have an easy way to deal with the Angel. Even WS-Decks are running Seal of Cleansing now.

Pre-sb most deck can handle a Platinum angel, no doubt about that.
But how much decks are going to keep these cards in their deck after sideoarding, or how many people are going to sideboard in artifact hate against you? Just the ability to steal random games sounds appealing to me, and I realise Colossus can do this too, Platinum just looks slightly better to me right now since I'm more concerned about stuff like Mono-U/Oath and Combo, than Aggro.

Koen

[Phele]

Italian makes top 8 with them all the time, so stating this makes little sense, if you would add (... in my metagame...) I could see your point, but it really makes no sence right now.

Italians made top8 with TPS many times, I know this since I started to discuss with them about the deck a year ago ( a time, where you were the only one even talking about this deck on this forum). But if you looked up theabyss correctly you would have seen, that there was just one version (played by pietro cavalletti) with slightly less draw7s (but still running tinker + jar) going top5 one time. All the other top8-entries were with almost the full set of draw7s ( just a month ago, luca simone won with an u/b/r version running even Time Spiral and Wheel of Fortune together, a version with wich he top3ed just a couple of weeks before). So my sentence makes more sence yet than just talk about testing results.

Just to clear this up, my Meta is Dülmen and it's true, there you can find any deck but most of the time fully powered, but I never met a Replenish deck. Anyway, I didn't want to talk about my meta, as you shouldn't talk just about your own, which is probably Eindhoven. But this thread is meant to improve TPS for a general field, and therefor I just wanted to know, if you don't think that FoF and Frantic Search often don't give you enough gas to win (or to find necro, bargain...). Again I propose Future Sight as a possibility. I know about the disadvantages of Memory Jar, but it's not the whole field that can really take use of it. I'd rather board it out instead of not playing it.

[Thug]

Italians made top8 with TPS many times, I know this since I started to discuss with them about the deck a year ago ( a time, where you were the only one even talking about this deck on this forum). But if you looked up theabyss correctly you would have seen, that there was just one version (played by pietro cavalletti) with slightly less draw7s (but still running tinker + jar) going top5 one time. All the other top8-entries were with almost the full set of draw7s ( just a month ago, luca simone won with an u/b/r version running even Time Spiral and Wheel of Fortune together, a version with wich he top3ed just a couple of weeks before). So my sentence makes more sence yet than just talk about testing results.

I must admit I haven't followed the results all year, but I did look into the results of the last few moths and I saw a high percentage of decks with few draw-sevens.

I was not stating that all Italians played it though, I was just trying to prove that a version with only Twister can be fast enough, and actually is. Since I saw different players make top8 with such a version I guessed that proved that having only Tiwster as a draw-seven is not too slow.

Just to clear this up, my Meta is Dülmen and it's true, there you can find any deck but most of the time fully powered, but I never met a Replenish deck. Anyway, I didn't want to talk about my meta, as you shouldn't talk just about your own, which is probably Eindhoven. But this thread is meant to improve TPS for a general field, and therefor I just wanted to know, if you don't think that FoF and Frantic Search often don't give you enough gas to win (or to find necro, bargain...). Again I propose Future Sight as a possibility. I know about the disadvantages of Memory Jar, but it's not the whole field that can really take use of it. I'd rather board it out instead of not playing it.

I've only been to Duelmen once, but at that time I faced a lot of random decks and if the metagame is still like this I can justify your need for more explosiveness, although you still should be able to win with a slighlty slower version.

As for a Replenish deck, I played one to top4 last tournament, and it's a pretty fun deck. Other Eindhoven players have played it before, and it probably will show up from time to time.

The only cards that I'm not 100% sure off is Frantic Search. It has won me games, but I also is one of the cards you hate to draw against control, since you rarely have any dead cards against them, the ones you have already get shuffled back with brainstorm.
The only time I don't like FoF is when my opponent has a Chalice for 1, but at that I don't like half my deck  

I know about the disadvantages of Memory Jar, but it's not the whole field that can really take use of it. I'd rather board it out instead of not playing it.

Again this depends on your metagame, but if welder decks, combo deck with brainstorm and graveyard based decks make up for more than 50% of your metagame I don't think it's a good choice.

Last tournament I faced (in 8 rounds totall) 5 Welder Decks!, one madness (it can abuse Jar, but nothing too scary) one Rector Trix (can abuse it with Therapy and Brainstorm) and one deck I can't think of right now. (EDIT: The deck was 3cc, and probably only had Crucible that interacts with my jar, aside from brainstorms off course). I guess this should make clear why I'm not sold on Tinker + Jar.

Koen

[BigMac]

It is not often that Koen and i agree on something but on this occasion i have to agree (although off course not fully) with him.

I have played TPS extensively the last year fighting off all threats people threw at me still winning against random decks due to its explosiveness. I played without all the draw sevens except timetwister. I also play a lot of instant speed draw cards instead of those draw sevens.

The biggest advantage i think i have over draw 7 is the following.
First i draw more cards than my opponent which is always good.
Second i do not fill my opponents hand which makes my job a whole lot easier
Third i can choose when to start comoboing out as i try to keep control. If you depend on your draw seven to much you could get stuck with a very bad hand indeed. This after you have played a lot of spells could actually cost you the game against virtually any deck.

I disagree on the tinker/jar. The jar is a good card and i only use it to finish the game of or use as a last resort. Having another tinker target is good as well but i have used my tinker a lot to actually get my lotus, play will lotus and the mox i used for tinker to clinch the deal. So tinker is a must with jar sometimes as a wincondition extra. Even against welder decks this is true.

[Negator13]

If you are using a card you claim is amazing as a last resort, then it can't be optimal. If you say you like Tinker because it gets Lotus to set up a YawgWiN, take a look at Gifts Ungiven. It sets up Will at Instant speed, alot better, without any sacrifice.

[Xman]

just a month ago, luca simone won with an u/b/r version running even Time Spiral and Wheel of Fortune together, a version with wich he top3ed just a couple of weeks before

Do you have his list?  I can't seem to find it.

But this thread is meant to improve TPS for a general field, and therefor I just wanted to know, if you don't think that FoF and Frantic Search often don't give you enough gas to win (or to find necro, bargain...). Again I propose Future Sight as a possibility. I know about the disadvantages of Memory Jar, but it's not the whole field that can really take use of it. I'd rather board it out instead of not playing it.

I agree with the tinker + Jar combo that is built in as very good, that you can't cut, but you can board it out.  I have been running Tinker + Jar, along with a suite of Draw 7's for a while in my TPS.  I have tried cutting the draw7's, with terrible results.

As for future sight, you never know.  I used it for a while, finding the UUU in the Casting cost to be a little clunky, but it allows for your -1 CA tutors (Vampy, Mystical) to act as demonic Tutors, as well as allows you to dig one deeper with your drawspells, and with your necro/bargain.  It is versatile, and I believe it would be in everyone's build if it did not cost 2UUU.  It is clunky to get out, however, once you get it out, it is very good.  Thoughts about putting it back in?

[Vale_psionic]

This is Luca Simone's last list:

4 Duress
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Memory Jar
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
1 Windfall
1 Time Spiral
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind's Desire
1 Rebuild
1 Cunning Wish
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
1 Tinker
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Vault
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
2 Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta


SIDEBOARD

1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
1 Brainfreeze
1 Rushing River
1 Echoing Truth
1 Misdirection
2 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
2 Hydroblast
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Stifle
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Darksteel Colossus


Now i'm sure that he is considering the tps version without draw-7, but i don't know if he wants to cut red (but i don't think because he really loves wheel,reb and pyro).

[FreshIsOuttaTurn]

I cant honestly believe that any enchantment that doesn't start with "N" and end with "ecropotence" or has a different name than "Yawgmoth's Bargain" can be playable in any speed based deck.

If I ever have 5 mana open, 3 of which is blue, well then I am gonna have some Fact or Fictioning or Gifts Ungiven fun into Recall.  For one, there isn't the space in the deck to run a card that COULD be good IF you have good cards already stacked in your deck.  For two, it costs 5 mana.  For three, it's from Onslaught and isn't a fetchland.  For four, it costs 5 mana.  For five, it has UUU in its casting cost.

Anyways, back to my sideboarding question...

@Thug about Hydroblasts
Since when is blood moon a problem for this deck?  I run 5 basics and I immediately get them with my fetches unless Im sure im not facing wastelands, b2bs, or blood moons.  It seems like Hydroblast just clogs up the sideboard a bit, cuz they are nice to wish for once in a while, but I stand by wishing for  Echoing Truth and then just going off.

@Everyone
Has anyone noticed that by boarding more than 1 or 2 cards tops in, your deck has to lose a big kick?  So whats the point of having 3 Claws of Gix or 2 Energy Flux if you slow yourself down to a point where you are a turn 6 combo deck.  I think sideboarding is a delicate process with a combo deck, but sideboarding with this deck isn't very well documented.

If one of the more experienced players could give a rundown of their sideboarding strategy, id be grateful.

[verduran]

I'd like to ask a question: how do you experienced TPS players think the deck compares to Doomsday.dec? And: Do you think the decks can learn from one another? (For example, should Doomsday start running cards like Y's Bargain, Cunning Wish and Skeletal scrying? Should TPS include Doomsday )