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Author Topic: [Deck] Kobolds  (Read 34621 times)
andrewpate
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« on: December 23, 2004, 03:48:47 pm »

Kobolds has been a combo deck floating around in the back of my mind for a while now.  It took a back seat for awhile to what I was doing with Storm, which has occupied most of my test time for recent months, but now that I'm off on Christmas I thought I'd give it a look, starting this afternoon since I was reminded of the deck by a discussion going on over at Star City.  I scrolled through the forum and grabbed what looked like a solid Glimpse of Nature list (since I like basing the deck on that better than on Skullclamp due to the ability to go off on very little mana, even as little as a single Bayou).  This is the list I threw into Workstation:

Kobolds (beta)

4 Bayou
1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Wooded Foothills

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Skullclamp
3 Tendrils of Agony

4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
3 Shield Sphere

A few thing became apparent to me very quickly in goldfishing.  I went ahead and tested the deck a bit online and ending up facing a little Fish and a little Monoblue, both of which confirmed my suspicions.

Glimpse of Nature:  4 of these is definitely the right number.  You really want one in your opening hand, since you can usually go off with just a Glimpse and 4 0-cost creatures.  Better still, with 4, once you start going off you will frequently draw into another one of these and start drawing 2 cards per creature.  Once you do this, it is almost impossible for you to lose, since you should be able to draw your whole deck and enough Dark Rituals to play all three of your Tendrils of Agony in just one turn, so even Stifle should hold no fear.  Also, 4 of these allows you to draw into one using Skullclamp fairly well.

Skullclamp:  3 of these, despite what some have said, is certainly sufficient.  You don't want to try to get 2 out and start clamping Ornithopters as a primary game plan, so normally just one to get some steam back off a couple of Kobolds is fine.  When you do have 2 and can draw a big pile off your Ornithopters, that's just great, but it's one way among many to generate CA and not a good primary route.  Just as often as you do that, you'll find yourself drawing one you don't need and clogging up your Glimpse chain.  Also, contrary to some other lists, clamping a pile of Kobolds before a Tendrils is too mana intensive to be nearly as reliable as Glimpse.

So I've found what seems to be the right number of card-drawers right off the bat.  This is good, but the list still suffers greatly.  Looking over the deck, you probably see that it lacks card drawing not contingent on creatures and has only 4 copies of its main combo spell, which serves also as its only means of survival.  In short, Demonic Tutor (while great) is just not enough.  I realized quickly that I would need to add Vampiric Tutor and more in order to go off consistently before turn 12 or so.

Diabolic Intent:  This was the first thing that came to mind.  When I was goldfishing and having to sit there and pass, what I found myself doing was playing out mana first, then creatures to keep from discarding (the deck really has nothing to do besides go off, so if you aren't doing that on turn 3 you probably have a full hand).  Diabolic Intent, I thought, would allow me to tutor for what I was missing (usually Glimpse) by using one of the creatures without having to waste others that could be drawing cards off the Glimpse.  If I were drawing too many mana sources (which can actually happen even with just 18), I could possibly even play a creature, DI it, play the Glimpse, then go off that turn.

But what to cut?  The changes I decided on were:
-1 Yawgmoth's Will, -1 Shield Sphere, -1 Tendrils of Agony
+1 Vampiric Tutor, +2 Diabolic Intent

My justifications for this were simple.  I was never really casting Will, since all it really does is run some guys back through the Clamp, which was never necessary, generate a bit of mana, which was also never necessary, and crank up the Storm a bit, which was least necessary of all.  It was a painless cut; the reflex to include it is strong, and it can occasionally do some very powerful things, but it just doesn't have a place in this deck.  Cutting a Tendrils was also easy, since 3 was probably too many to begin with--I would frequently get an opening hand with one, which basically amounts to a mulligan.  For a deck that already mulligans as aggressively as this one, that's a really big deal.  The Shield Sphere was somewhat harder to decide on, but the truth is that the deck already had more than enough creatures to go off with and sometimes I was sitting there with 6 of them and no Glimpse.  A tutor is much better than this.

After a couple of goldfish games, the change became apparent as quite remarkable.  I was going off much more consistently than before.  In one game, I had triple-Glimpse but ran out of dudes by drawing tragically into a mana pocket.  I used Diabolic Intent to get a Crimson Kobolds and proceeded to go off and win!  In another game, I started to go off but crapped out, so I Vampiric Tutored for another Glimpse and then layed a guy.  That gave me a Glimpse in the hand to go off with two turns later after I Clamped into a couple of creatures, and I managed to win that way on turn 4.

I experimented with a couple of other cute cards suggested by forum-goers, such as Culling the Weak and No Rest for the Wicked.  Culling the Weak is really doing the same thing as Diabolic Intent--putting worthless creatures to good use once they've drawn their cards and contributed to Storm; the problem is, mana is not as important to the deck as card selection since drawing into mana is easy once the combo starts, and a bunch of mana is not necessary to start the combo.  No Rest for the Wicked is a lot like Yawgmoth's Will in this deck, and we already discussed why Will is suboptimal here.  And No Rest for the Wicked can't even reuse Glimpse of Nature!  Dark Ritual and the current card-draw suite is the best you're going to get, since cutting anything else for extra mana is clearly going to be a bad call, as you're going to have to start eating into the creature base to an unhealthy degree.  If the deck has mana problems at this point, it's an archetypical flaw and not a problem with the list.

So here's what I ended up with:

Kobolds

4 Bayou
1 Gaea's Cradle
3 Wooded Foothills

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

1 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Skullclamp
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Shield Sphere

From here, I'd like to start testing some specific matchups and working on some sideboard options.  One of the main problems I foresee is that the deck is so incredibly tight that it will be very hard to board anything out for things like Red Elemental Blast or Rack and Ruin.  One possibility could be to go to a Living Wish toolbox, with an extra 0-coster, an extra Gaea's Cradle, and then some utility guys like Viashino Heretic or something.  Wishes would probably come in for tutors, which sucks because Wishes don't get Glimpse of Nature.

Any input would be appreciated at this point, as would any testing data.
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bedafile
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2004, 09:15:35 pm »

From a glance at the list I would concider trying Land Grant instead of the Fetch lands to get more land out of the deck and in your hand when your going off, plus add to your storm count.

Also I would try to bring back Will as you can win on first turn Long Style - Land, Mox, Rit, Duress, DT, BL, Will, BL, Rit, DT, Tendrills. My favorite opening hand. With a Skull Clamp out Will = Win.

Also I've tested a similar deck ever since Clamp came out; have you considered running Quiron Dryad instead of Tendrills. I know you have to wait a turn to win but could it ad more consistancy since you can cast it off ESG and it costs 1G? When stalled casting ESG and double clamp is a favorite play. I understand this deck is designed more to use Glimpse of Nature but its worth trying IMO.
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2004, 10:14:24 pm »

A couple of things spring to mind when looking at the list.  

Firstly, would Cabal Therapy be better than Duress in that slot?  It seems like there would be excess creatures just sitting in play, and really Duress usually just is worried about Force of Will, in my experience, especially because the deck, or the version I played, is faster than most other combo decks.  

Secondly, I would reconsider replacing Yawgmoth's Will.  You are running Dark Rit, which has natural synergy with the card, you have Clamp, which can lead to many creatues in the graveyard, and thus, a huge Glimpse, and you have a very select group of business spells that, if countered, lead to 22 dead cards in the deck.  Will replays these spells and anything else countered/Duressed.  Lastly, it gives you the ability to just win, MeanDeath style.

Thirdly, I think that the fourth Clamp should be in here, because, in my testing, it, rather than Glimpse is the core card.  Also, Clamp and a mediocre hand still finds Glimpses and other stuff, while a mediocre Glimpse is just wasted.
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2004, 10:27:33 pm »

Honestly, RTFC.  Skullclamp and Yawgmoth's Will is no kind of combo.
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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2004, 10:47:56 pm »

Quote from: ELD
Honestly, RTFC.  Skullclamp and Yawgmoth's Will is no kind of combo.



That's combolishous. Because after that, you're playing more Kobolds, drawing more, and definitly getting enough Storm to Tendrils a win. Heres a good example.

Bayou, Dark Ritual, remove an ESG, Glimpose of Nature, Kobold, draw 1, Kobold, draw 1, Kobold, draw 1, Mox Ruby, Skullclamp, clamp once, draw 2, clamp twice, draw 2, Dark Ritual, clamp last one, draw 2, Kobold, draw 1, Thopter, draw 1, Black Lotus, Mox Emerald, Yawgmoth's Will, Lotus, Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Glimpse of Nature, Kobold, draw 2, Kobold, draw 2, Kobold, draw another, clamp 1, draw 2, clamp another, draw 2, clamp last, draw 2, Tendrils of Agony for 42 life.
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« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2004, 10:53:37 pm »

There is a difference between synergy and a Combo. Saying that Yawg's Will with Kobolds is a combo is like saying that Dark Ritual ---> Necropotence is a combo... It isnt... Its synergy...
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« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2004, 10:58:03 pm »

Quote from: Whatever Works
There is a difference between synergy and a Combo. Saying that Yawg's Will with Kobolds is a combo is like saying that Dark Ritual ---> Necropotence is a combo... It isnt... Its synergy...


True...but aren't all combo decks just synergy pie now?
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« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2004, 11:03:01 pm »

Quote from: CaptainPlanet.dec
Quote from: Whatever Works
There is a difference between synergy and a Combo. Saying that Yawg's Will with Kobolds is a combo is like saying that Dark Ritual ---> Necropotence is a combo... It isnt... Its synergy...


True...but aren't all combo decks just synergy pie now?

All decks are synergy pie if you want to phrase it that way... There isnt a single deck thats competitive in the entire format that doesnt have incredibly synergy so I guess you could say that. but i refuse to call Kobolds + will a combo... ever...
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« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2004, 11:03:39 pm »

What he was saying is that Yawgs Will makes skullclamp usless since if the cretures never hit the yard (thanks to Will) you don't draw cards.

However even without being able to clamp under will, Yawgs Will plus glimpse and if you do start clamping/ DI / Cabal therapying and get a lot of creatures in the yard i think Will is still good enough to include.
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Eric Dupuis

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« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2004, 11:42:51 pm »

The thing that cracks me up is that so many people just plain don't know what they're talking about.  It should be obvious to anyone posting about this deck that clamping does not draw cards after a yawgmoth's will.  

Advice/comments concerning deck construction really needs to come from people who know what they're talking about.  You don't have to be a mox winning tournament ninja.  You have to read the cards.  You have to know how they interact.  You have to think.  You have to know what you're talking about.  

If you don't do these things, do us all a favor.  Build the deck.  Play it.  Learn.  Play some more.  I'm not talking about playing with yourself.  As a magic player, I'm sure you do too much of that as it is.  Go to a tournament.  Play vs other people.  Learn what makes the deck win, what makes it lose, and what cards are simply win more cards.  When you have some information of value, post it.  

Any goldfishing that assumed clamp/will works is of zero value.  Regardless of what deck I'm playing, I win more games with will than any other card.  The fact that this is a combo deck that does not win every time will resovles doesn't impress me at all.  

While I wouldn't bring a kobold deck to a tourney, I have tested it.  In my testing, I find that this combo deck is often devistated by 1st turn duress.  Often you will have a glimpse or clamp and some guys.  Sadly, the guys in this deck do not win by themselves.  Counter magic is also a problem once UU gets online, and it often can.  

While I haven't tested it, Xandid swarm seems like it could be in the main.  It can be clamped, or cast after a glimpse.  Vs combo you can hold of a turn and make clamp/glimpse uncounterable.  This is just a thought, as I haven't tried it out yet.  I'll test it and post my results.
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« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2004, 12:50:41 am »

Does anyone have the decklist of the Kobold deck that got a top 3 in VA a few weeks ago? On the same SCG forum to which you are referring, Smmenen made mention of this deck, which was piloted by David Allen.

It would make sense to examine a decklist that has had tournament success. There are tons of builds for this deck, and few seem to be any good.

I've tried to find his decklist on TMD vintage tournament report, but I can't find any decklists from that tournament, but I'm a noob to the site, so maybe it's just me.
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« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2004, 12:53:55 am »

in testing, we have found a full suite of both clamp and glimpse to be ideal, as well as using Tinder wall. tinder wall is godly in this deck.  you only need 20 critters to go off, the thoptor and sheild spheres are just filler.  the intents are definitely good. I alos did not see culling the week in the deck. a full suite of spirit guides are very usefull for speeding up the win. and ELD is right, skullclamp does not draw cards when you play Will.
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« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2004, 01:25:14 am »

I did not think of Tinder Wall.  I'll stick that in for some 0-costers and give the deck another spin tomorrow.  I'm not too sure about it, though, since green mana can be hard to come by; I frequently go off with only a Bayou for green mana and run the rest off chained Rituals and off-color Mox mana.  Also, if you'll look, I actually did explain that I don't like Culling the Weak very well (I did try it).

I still don't like 4 Skullclamp since Glimpse of Nature can almost always win and I rarely need double-clamp to find it.  There have been a couple of games, admittedly, where I was like, "Dang it, where's my Skullclamp."  But unless further testing shows this happening more, I'll stick with 3 for the time being.

As for Elvish Spirit Guide, I would love to have 4, I really would.  But I don't see anything that can reasonably go in order to accomodate them.  I don't want to sacrifice tutoring, and I can't go much fewer on creatures without fear of not drawing enough.

@twault
Yes, I'd also like to see the list you are referring to.  If someone can find it, I'd love to see it posted here.

Does anyone have any thoughts on sb options?  As I said, the list is quite tight and I'm having trouble deciding what is okay to take out and what I'm really going to need help with.  Clearly a resolved Trinisphere is hopeless for the current list, so that's one important need to fill.  A grabbed Glimpse or Clamp can also be traumatic, although I have been able to play around Duress and Force of Will before in my (admittedly limited) testing.  I'll report back once I've played some more game 1s with some ideas, but I'd love to hear any suggestions on how to solve the puzzle of fitting hate into a combo this pervasive.
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« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2004, 01:42:35 am »

I've been playing with Kobolt based decks for awhile now.  You are DEFINITELY gonna want that 3rd Clamp in there.  Heck, you even added cards so that you'd hit clamp quickly Razz

The fact of the matter is, is that you typically need the clamp to go off.  Without it, you'll be stuck with a bunch of 0/1's that do nothing Razz

Further, I do not see a reason why you wouldn't run Y.Will in ANY combo deck that could support it.  Drawing will is typically game over against any competitor that can't counter it.

Pac
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« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2004, 10:58:00 am »

Playing Will should be the win, even if you have the clamps on the board, and its the first thing you do.  Reason being is it lets you play all your previously used glimpses and then lets you play all those creatures.  you should be drawing 2 every time you return a creature off the will from glimps alone.  At least thats how I understand it

The other thought I had about this deck is: Does it run an alternate win to get around Arcane Lab (and its white counterpart).  Or does it just scoop to an Arcane Lab resolving.  Does it run something like Coat of Arms or something similar to get the long arcane lab win?
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« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2004, 03:29:08 pm »

Yes, Arcane Lab/Rule of Law is one of the situations requiring good sideboarding options as I've asked for help on.  So far all I've really been able to come up with is the Living Wish idea, and my testing hasn't shown a balance of Wishes and tutors really capable of doing what I want.  Like I said, I'd love to hear any ideas on this, but everyone seems so caught up in the Yawgmoth's Will thing that they can't concentrate on anything else.  I'll say this one more time:  yes I KNOW that Yawgmoth's Will is a really powerful card, yes I KNOW that you can sometimes do ridiculous things with it in this deck, and yes I KNOW that almost every good combo deck runs it.  But I played with Will for what I'm going to go ahead and guess is more goldfish games than everyone posting to put it in has done put together, and the truth is that it hardly ever won a game I would have lost without it.  It's a way to draw your whole deck and get a Storm count of 40, which isn't the difference between a win and a loss and can be done anyway.  Will cannot win you games when you don't have Glimpse of Nature, but Glimpse wins games all the time without Will.  More tutors is better than Will.  If I were going to cut a non-tutor for a Will, I would instead cut it for another Diabolic Intent.  Will is a "win more" card in this deck, and no matter how much more it makes you win, it isn't the "topdeck Will, oops I win" card that it is in a deck like TPS.

That said, I could definitely see Will as a sideboard possibility against decks that have access to a lot of Stifle effects and hard counters.  In my testing against Monoblue, I have seen them blow all their counters on Glimpses and tutors until I don't have any more Kobolds and I have to topdeck for 5 turns to try to go off again.  In that situation, where I've used Skullclamp to get cards from all my dudes and I have a yard full of guys and Glimpses, I could easily see a resolved Will being a way out.  With such a high threat density and such enormous card selection, the Kobolds deck usually doesn't sweat a Force of Will or two.  But decks bristling with permission are a hard match and Will is definitely all-star against those decks.  If the Living Wish sideboard is finally abandoned (or even if it isn't), I believe that Will should almost certainly get a slot, and it could certainly come in for a tutor or a dude against certain decks to drastically improve the matchup.
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« Reply #16 on: December 24, 2004, 06:24:44 pm »

why no frogmite?
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« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2004, 12:40:32 am »

this is my BG build, won me an illusionary mask in a 17 man tournament.

4 bayou
1 gaea's cradle

4 kobolds of kher keep
4 crimson kobold
4 crookshank kobold
4 elvish spirit guide
3 ornithopter
3 tinder wall

4 songs of the damned
4 culling the weak
4 land grant
4 glimpse of nature
2 tendrils of agony
1 necropotence
1 demonic tutor
1 wheel of fortune
1 yawgmoth's will

4 skullclamp
1 mox sapphire
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault

SB
3 Xantid swarm
3 oxidize
2 naturalize
3 ground seal
3 deconstruct
1 tendrils of agony

this deck is very metagame dependant. if there are many workshop decks being played you might as well just tuck the sucker away and play something else. even with the sideboard options of deconstruct (destroy a 3sphere or something and get GGG back) as well as naturalize, now just doesn't seem like the optimal time to play this deck. but if you want a fun deck to play in small 15< tournies, hey man, go nuts.

my build of kobold clamp does very well against oath (which is obvious) and does tend to combo off faster than other decks such as belcher and tps. doomsday does give this deck a bit of a beating because of the aggro that they pack but is still very resilient.
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« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2004, 01:12:44 am »

Your deck clearly has the ability to generate enormous amounts of mana and draw an enormous number of cards.  Far more of both than is really necessary to win.  I am not saying that this is a huge drawback, as I'm sure at the very least that you have no danger of fizzling halfway through the combo (as some Kobold decks do).

What I'm most curious about is your use of Land Grant instead of fetchlands.  Did you test both?  I am still determining which I like better of the two, and would like your input.

I'll go ahead and say that I don't like the use of Necropotence and Wheel of Fortune over extra tutors, and I don't like the use of Culling the Weak over Dark Ritual.  Wheel cannot find Glimpse of Nature when you don't have it unless you want to give the Workshop or Control player a brand new grip full of stuff that kills you.  Necropotence makes you wait a turn before you go off.  And Culling the Weak forces you to sacrifice a creature that you could be using to help go off (I don't mind as much sacrificing for Diabolic Intent or Skullclamp because those both find Glimpse, while Culling the Weak just generates mana for extra Clamping, which is usually not difficult to find, or in this deck for Necro, which I don't think is that great).

As for the 4 Skullclamp, do you not find yourself drawing extra ones when you are first starting to go off?  With 4, I felt like I was getting doubles a bit too often.  How have they done for you, and have you tried just 3?

Also, you claimed that your list goes off faster than Belcher.  Did you mean through disruption?  Because the Belcher decks I've worked with goldfish on turn 1 considerably more than half the time, and if that's what you meant, then it would certainly be significant.  As much more resilient than Belcher as this deck is, a 70% turn 1 goldfish would be something definitely worth investigating, although I am a bit incredulous.

All that said, I disagree with you that the Workshop matchup is hopeless.  I feel as though the deck can do some things in serious metagames or I wouldn't be spending time on it.  It has great speed and it is tough to stop.

I'll post my latest list after Christmas.  Everyone have a Merry one!
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« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2004, 02:18:51 am »

i have tested with both fetches and land grants. seeing as both fetches and land grants serve the same purpose in snagging land and thinning the deck, i took land grant in the sense that it raises the storm count.

i ran wheel in order to better utilize the tinder walls, as well as potentially throw away things in my hand for songs/yawgmoths will. i find myself often second guessing necro, i tried bargain but that wasnt convenient so it more or less is just filling a slot. as for culling it is essentially in the deck to have clamped creatures sac'd to it for cards and the 4 black mana. the mana helps me to cast necro, cast will, demonic tutor, tendrils, or of course more clamping. I think that culling is better than ritual despite the sacrifice necessity because culling can be used much more efficiently in the situations mentioned above or any other appropriate time in the game.

i played 4 skullclamps because i felt the combo was more secured this way. i consider it a good draw to get an extra clamp for backup in case my one cast beforehand is countered, or to double clamp an ornithopter/tinder wall.

the belcher decks i played against were all the simister builds, so i won those matches based on the fact that they couldn't counter anything i played. so it gave me plenty of free reign.

when i played this deck (about a month ago) the shop i was at was relatively workshop-dominant (about 5 out of the usual 12 people who played). i won the mask through playing fish-tog-belcher-fish-tps.

hope i provided some helpful info. merry christmas.
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« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2004, 06:32:51 am »

why has not one thought of using the existing skeleton of a kobold deck combined with a frame from 2 land or 1 land belcher? this would allow for more consistant card drawing and random rawdogged wins off belchers. just a thought.
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« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2004, 07:50:44 pm »

Quote from: doomhed
why has not one thought of using the existing skeleton of a kobold deck combined with a frame from 2 land or 1 land belcher? this would allow for more consistant card drawing and random rawdogged wins off belchers. just a thought.

I run the exact same list as Wakawakaboop and it has amazing results. If you are going to build a list it would be best to start with that list. Whats the point of belcher this is more of a storm deck.
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« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2004, 10:33:10 pm »

Quote from: normalbrains
why no frogmite?


frogmite is only good if you can draw it after your opening hand assuming you already have four artifacts in play to play him freely, but even then, there really isnt room in the deck for frogmite because you already have a steady creature base to clamp off with the kobolds and the ornithopters, and tinder wall is much better in the last remaining slot if you choose to run them.

frogmite will prove to be useless just about everytime you draw him
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« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2004, 11:25:36 am »

Did anyone find the decklist to which I was referring? I would like to see the decklists of all the decks at VA. It was on December 4th I think.
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« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2005, 10:03:47 pm »

Okay, so I've been doing a bit more testing, and I have some new takes on some card choices:

Tinder Wall:  I don't like this in my deck nearly as much as I thought I would.  The truth is, it costs green mana and produces what basically amounts to colorless.  If you are focusing on Skullclamp (as several of you apparently are), then I highly recommend packing between 2 and 4 of these, but the truth is that the Glimpse build is frequently going off on just a Bayou and a Mox or the like, so the extra colorless isn't as important as the ability to cast another Glimpse.  In testing, I once kept a no-land hand with just a Mox Emerald for mana and won on the first turn.  This is the type of win I recommend focusing on because, quite frankly, it is faster than the Skullclamp version.

Land Grant:  I have decided that I prefer this to fetches.  It adds to Storm and otherwise really does the same thing.  Best of all, extra Land Grants that pop up going off can at least be burned for Storm while extra fetches do nothing.

With such an obscenely low land count now, a transformational sideboard seemed possible with Culling the Weak and Goblin Charbelcher.  But then I realized that Belcher doesn't really have any good matchups that are bad matchups for Kobolds, so I scrapped that in a hurry.  Maybe a deck with both kills maindeck could work, but there have been Belcher/Tendrils decks before so I don't think that's the right direction to go.

Hyperion suggested the following sideboard, which was miles ahead of the Living Wish plan I was hating so much:

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Scavenger Folk
4 Elvish Scrapper
3 Cabal Therapy

The first 12 slots are 1-costers that can come in for 0-costers in certain matchups to slow thing down slightly while becoming more reactive.  Against decks with permission (i.e., Force of Will), Xantid Swarm can come down turn one and delay going off to turn 2.  An early Scavenger Folk/Elvish Scrapper can get rid of a Trinisphere as long as it doesn't come down first turn, and it also beats the deadly Chalice for 0.

The other 3, the Cabal Therapies, are for other combo decks and come in for different cards in different matchups.  Combined with Duress, they can do some insane things.  First turn Duress, second turn Therapy and flashback is virtually impossible for most combo decks to overcome before Kobolds kills them.

So far, I have been unable to improve on this plan, so that is what I'm running.  Thus, my new list is as follows:

Kobolds

4 Bayou
1 Gaea's Cradle

1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl

4 Dark Ritual
3 Duress
2 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Land Grant

1 Demonic Tutor
2 Diabolic Intent
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Skullclamp
2 Tendrils of Agony

4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
2 Shield Sphere

Sideboard:

4 Xantid Swarm
4 Scavenger Folk
4 Elvish Scrapper
3 Cabal Therapy

This is the list as far as I've been able to clean it so far.  I'm still open to feedback, especially by specific matchups.  Some of you who've won tournaments:  do you have any insights?

@twault
I have not been able to find this list.  If anyone has it, I'd still like to see it.
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« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2005, 01:11:54 am »

there is absolutely no reason not to run 4 skullclamp imo... i would rather get 2 in play (your worst case scenario) then having none in play after the draw engine of glimpse of nature stalls out...
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« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2005, 01:38:18 am »

Are Scavenger Folk/Scrapper better than Oxidize?
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« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2005, 01:55:53 am »

i havent built or tested this deck at all, but after following this forum for a while i wondered if anybody has played with a fastbond in the deck. the versions running four bayou with land grant seems like they could support it, giving the deck an easy way to play land grants into bayous for dark rituals to ensure you dont stall out on black mana to cast the almost always lethal tendrils. the one issue that popped out at me immediately was the fact that the green mana to play the fastbond could be used for a glimpse, but it doesnt seem like it would hamper the deck at all, and fastbond damage is certainly something i would think this deck doesn not worry about the least bit.

just a curious thought, i'd like to know if anybody has the same idea or has tested with fastbond  Question
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« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2005, 10:47:52 am »

Quote from: E Face
i havent built or tested this deck at all, but after following this forum for a while i wondered if anybody has played with a fastbond in the deck. the versions running four bayou with land grant seems like they could support it, giving the deck an easy way to play land grants into bayous for dark rituals to ensure you dont stall out on black mana to cast the almost always lethal tendrils. the one issue that popped out at me immediately was the fact that the green mana to play the fastbond could be used for a glimpse, but it doesnt seem like it would hamper the deck at all, and fastbond damage is certainly something i would think this deck doesn not worry about the least bit.

just a curious thought, i'd like to know if anybody has the same idea or has tested with fastbond  Question


Fastbond is extremely week in the deck because the deck is so mana tight, and you would rather use the mana to clamp another kobold... and if you have that many lands in your opening hand or in general your better off mulliganing.

Also i feel that running wheel of fortune is a must for the deck if your running either tinder wall or chromatic sphere (but not to many versions are it appears).
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« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2005, 04:01:07 pm »

Quote from: Tristal
Are Scavenger Folk/Scrapper better than Oxidize?


They are never dead in your hand, which might be possible with Oxidize. I think I like Deconstruct better even than Oxidize, as it dyes your colorless mana green in the process and has the same mana cost when using it to get rid of a trinisphere.  Razz

Besides from that it might even be useful on your own mox to get more green mana.
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