New direction for 4cc

[pox_reborn]

So I'm reading in the vintage forum and I look at a topic Maxxmatt started over there. He was proposing a new change to 4 color control decks in order to solve the problems in faces currently today. Here is the list for reference:

Maindeck

(10/11)
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
1/2 Misdirection
1 Mindtwist

(2/3)
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
0/1 Tinker

(6)
4 Cunning Wishes
2 Engineered Explosives

(1/2)
1/2 Decree of Justice
0/1 Goblin Charbleacher / 0/1 Platinum Angel

(5)
2 Crucible of the World
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will
1 Balance

(9)
4 Brainstorm
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall

(25/26)
6 Fetchland
1 Tolarian Academy / 1 Plain
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Underground Sea
2/3 Island
1 Swamp
2 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt


Sideboard

( Removals and Solutions )
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Fire/Ice
2 Disenchant
2 Rack and Ruin
1 Sword to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict

( Drawers and Tutors )
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Gush


My question to others who are more experienced in 4 color control is whether or not this is a step in the right direction for 4cc. What I see are some changes that in my initial testing helped out the deck a lot. The greater number of basics helped me overcome the watselands and left my manabase mostly immune. I have not had any major problems in finding the right color because the fetches help sooth out the inconsistencies.

When condsidering the draw engine, I thought that the lack of exalted angel would put a crimp on the draw engine but synergy still does exist within the deck. Using Platinum angel gives you a castable beater that can be tinkered out if the need arises. With platinum out it makes it much easier to use skelatal with no fear of dying.

Enigineered explosives seems more efficient than mox monkey in some cases with the capability to destroy many threats. I am still condsidering the slot of 4 cunning wish but further testing will help me form more of an opion on those slots.

Overall, I have high hopes in the new direction Maxxmatt took 4cc in his version. It minimizes the amout of dead cards in each matchup and gives the deck powerful vesatality to answer any threat in the form of explosives and cunning wish.  

I would just like to know the thoughts of other 4cc players on this new direction of the deck or if different direction could be taken that could make the deck more viable in todays metagame.

[Negator13]

Admittedly I'm not a 4cc player, but I wonder, why stay 4 colors anymore? Red is in there purely for the board. Of course, the red sb cards are the best available, but, REB is at an all-time low effectiveness, F/I can be replaced by black or white removal, and R+R can be replaced by Seal of Cleansing and Disenchant. Today's metagame is a very hostile place for a deck with a 4 color manabase.

[Revvik]

Part of the reason successful decks today are so successful is the synergy present in the deck.  Such as Control Slaver (the Gothenburg list, for reference): Intuition fetches Accumulated Knowledge for draw, or artifact combo pieces for the win, or sets up a stronger Yawgmoth's Will.  Thrist for Knowledge draws cards, discards Welding targets, and sets up cards for Yawgmoth's Will.  Et cetera.

My point:
One of the biggest synergies 4CC had was that of its draw engine (Skeletal Scrying) with its lifegain/kill (Exalted Angel).  The original interaction was Mana Drain fuels free morph creature / large Scrying, Exalted Angel recoups the loss of life through Scrying so that cheap Red can't take an easy win.  The loss of Exalted Angels removes a part of this synergy, which seems like a step back.

There was a post a while back on a '3CC,' cutting red.  While the result wasn't particularly strong, maybe that is a good direction to take - if viable alternatives to the powerful red sideboard cards can be found.  Preferably better than Dismantling Blow.

One such suggestion would be as such: Black will ALWAYS be a staple color of this deck.  If Exalted Angel remains the primary kill condition of this deck, maybe Snuff Out can be considered as an alternate, tempo-swinging removal spell.

[Draven]

I have been playing 4cc since before it was called Keeper. Currently, I am running what I call 3.5 cc. It is prodominatly Blue/White with 2 Black cards (Demonic Tutor and Yawg's Will). The draw engine I use is Accumulated Knowledge (with Fact or Fictin and A.Recall). The reason I am running AK's over Scrying is due to cutting Angels for Decrees. I cut the Angels becasue I wanted to cut all double colored mana costs (except Blue.) I am also running Tinekr/Colossus as an alternate kill. The only Red is the SB bombs that have already been talked about. But I have actually cut a Rack and Ruin and all but one Fire/Ice, so is it possible to completly cut Red?

The Rack and Ruin's are really the bomb cards with the amount of Workshop.decks running around, and its ability to be wished for is quite handy. Seal of Cleansing is good, however, it not being Wishable really drops down it's effectiveness. Dismantling Blow is not a bad card, however, is it better than Rack and Ruin? Probably not.

I would really like to hear people have to say about viable options to cutting Red.

[Revvik]

Well, running both Seal of Cleansing AND the sideboarded Rack & Ruins definitely improves the Workshop player's day.

However, running say, three Seal of Cleansing main, one sideboarded, and some white artifact killers (Dismantling Blow Jank, or Disenchant) already gives you a strong gameplan against them.  The problem you mentioned was  Seal can't be Wished for (using good wishes, anyways).

Cunning Wish --> Vampiric Tutor?  This allows 4cc to drop Red, and still be able to fetch out strong artifact kill.  It's no 2-for-1, but it fills the role of handling a problem artifact.  The only REAL problem is, if you're going to wish for that kind of answer, Disenchant can be fetched anyways.

The PROPER way to utilize Dismantling Blow was by Draining something big, then wishing, and using the Drain mana to go "UW, boom, I draw cards."  This isn't bloody likely given the speed of today's metagame, so Dismantling Blow can be considered a poor selection.

Again, I ask - what is lost by Red, and what are viable replacements?  Reducing the color intensity of this deck allows for a better resiliency to non-basic hate - as it stands nowadays, I believe this is one of the only decks still susceptible to the preying of U/R Fish.  Watch this - removal of red?  You can now drop City of Brass, and an entire dual land type, thereby increasing the slots available for basics, meaning WW can be reached easier.

There is also a HUGE problem with running Accumulated Knowledge.  Everyone is using them, and proper utilization isn't found in a deck like 4CC - it takes up too many slots, and Intuition isn't nearly as synergistic with the rest of the deck as it is with decks that properly run the engine.  Those decks stand to capitalize on your dependency on Accumulated Knowledge, which they've already adapted to not need.

Personally, I'd like to hear Zherbus's comments on the "new direction" and where he thinks it lies.  Being the designer of the previous, most potent version I've seen as of late, maybe he could shed some light on the subject.

[Draven]

Well, I am going to try and cut Red for the upcomming month. Pretty much now I playing U/W control with Will and Demonic.

I have deceided to run 3 Disenchant and 1 Aura of Silence in the board to make up for the loss of Reack and Ruin. You can't really make up for the lost REB, but those arn't so important any more. As for losing the Fire/Ice, nothing can reall replace that either, but they were hardly used much any more as well.

I will be sure to let everyone how the deck works.

Still need a cute name...

[Revvik]

You can't really make up for the lost REB

Duress, it does it all.

[Toad]

Cunning Wish --> Vampiric Tutor?

Cunning Wish for Vampiric Tutor for Disenchant or whatever else is 9 manas under Trinisphere. Terrible.

4CC is bad in the current metagame because of the predominance of Crucible of Worlds, and because most of the other Control decks have a better draw engine and better win conditions than It (that is, Tog, Drain Slaver and Oath).

The only advice I would give to someone who is trying to run a 4CC build in the current metagame are :

1. Drop Cunning Wish entierely.
2. Maindeck a couple of Dismantling Blow or Orim's Thunder.
3. Use basic lands, as much as possible. Plains and/or Swamps too.

[Smmenen]

Cunning Wish for Vampiric Tutor for Disenchant or whatever else is 9 manas under Trinisphere. Terrible.

"Manas"  *snicker*

[Revvik]

Ethnic jokes about language aside, Smemmenmenm   , how about a more control-oriented approach?  Modern 4CC has recently relied more or less on Brokenness(tm) to win its games - what if we took the work that Zherbus and the Germans so carefully orchestrated, and mutilated it to be heavier on control -

Counter:
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
X Duress
X Mana Leak
x Seal of Cleansing?
(Here is one major difference - going second, you still only have the protection of FOW.  Going first gives you Leak and Seal.)

[pox_reborn]

A controlling 4-cc could work but we need to condsider this:

Tog has the 8 counters and duress but uses them as disruption and accelerants to quicken its win. Oath also uses its barrage of counters to acomplish this also. Exalted angel cannot win as fast as the former control decks win conditions can but allows lasting power and a synergic draw engine. The expense of exalted angel is a manabase weak to wasteland and crucible and blood moon's ilk. The control cards generally used are found in oath and tog but their deck designs allow them to suceed in the metagame currently.

I have been looking into options into improving the first list posted but first lets look at a tournament report by Maxxmatt and the updated version he took:

Deck.Dec

Bombs ? (11)
2 Crucible of the Worlds
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Balance
1 Yawgmoth?s Will
1 Decree of Justice
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Mindtwist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Time Walk

Tutors ? (6)
3 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Tinker

Coutners ? (10)
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection

Drawers ? (9)
4 Braisntorm
3 Skeletal Scrying
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall

Mana ? (25)
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tundra
3 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Wasteland
1 Stripmine
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring

Sideboard ? (15)
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Disenchant
2 Fire/Ice
1 Sword to Plowshares
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Gush
1 Engineered Explosives

Maxxmatt had sucess with this deck and is improvements over the original one he made and I posted in the beginning of the thread. As i was testing, platinum did not pull its weight and charbelcher utility is marginal. Maxxmatt took the deck into a bomb brokeness approach by winning with the most brokeness. At glance it seems to want to end the game or control it to the point where winning is easy to obtain and inevitable. I'm just throwing this out to hear some other comments on what other people think on this kind of direction and they can test it for themselves if they feel like it.

One change I am condsidering right now but is untested is combining the CAB deck posted on starcitygames with Maxxmatts build. Maxx's focus on bomb cards to overwhelm the opponent could work well with the combo in the cab deck. For reference it is:

gifts ungiven  and selecting recoup,yawgmoth's will, 2 brokeness

Gifts ungiven could allow versatality in the 4cc deck and recoup can allow all the brokenness to be replayed back. While this is just an off the cuff idea I wanted to hear what other people think initially to see if it is worth it. I do know there would be some problems though like the lack of synergy with scrying. Anyway these are my thoughts.

[circus]

I have tested Maxxmatt's 4cc.  The improved mana base is very resilient in the face of non-basic hate.  

I ran 2 EE main and found them to be very useful for removing welders, oaths and moxen.  Platinum Angel and Cranial Extraction did nothing for me in testing, and I cut those cards.  This version of 4cc performs well enough against combo without Plats & CE.

Tinker/Colossus is a great path to victory unless your opponent runs Welder or STP (or both, in 5/3 builds.)

Tog or any other deck running Intuition was a problem matchup.  An early Intuition overwhelmed 4cc.  Intuition is much stronger than Cunning Wish right now.  I have not tested Gifts Ungiven at all.  Therefore, I am unable to comment intelligently on its use.

Cutting red entirely would severely weaken sideboarded games vs. blue-based control as you lose access to REBs.

As Maxxmatt alluded to in earlier posts, the problem with running Duress is that either your turn 1 Underground Sea is vulnerable to strip/waste or you must wait until turn 3 to get 2 blue up for Drain.

Presently 4cc must sacrifice speed for the sake of a stable manabase.  This delay does not allow it to expoit its powerful tools as effectively as one would like.

[pox_reborn]

I quickly worked up a rough draft list for a 4cc list that has Maxxmatt's manabase but utilizes gifts ungiven and recoup in a controlling fashion:

Rough draft list with inspiration from Maxxmatt's list and Team CAB's list:

v 1.0


4 FOW
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection

2 Crucible of the Worlds
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Tinker
1  Balance
1 Mind twist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestrall Recall
1 Fact or fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical tutor

1 collosuss
1 Decree of justice

4 Brainstorm
2 skeletal scrying

3 Gifts ungiven
1 Recoup

4 polluted Delta
2 Flooded strand
1 Strip mine
2 Wasteland
1 Volcanic
1 Underground
1 Tundra
3 island
1 swamp
1 Tolarian academy
7 solomox


- Still issues to be worked out when i examine the deck and run it through and test it some more. Skelatal scrying can be decent but the lack of synergy with gifts/recoup is evident. Still, we would not want to resort to instead having ak wars with tog and oath around.

- Sideboard still in progress

- Advantages over Team CAB's list? - I'm not here to say one is better in another. Gifts can work for this deck in different ways. Gifting for a strip can help obtain dominance when crucible is out. Gifting for cranials can be a double threat to certain decks where you have the opportunity to attack them in different ways. Recoup can still be used in this deck as a massive cardadvantage gainer allowing for plays such as double twist or double walk. Recoup does not have to be used in combo fashion with will to generate an advantage for your side.

- Consideration I still want to add: I wanted burning wish in because team CAB used it in their deck but I have to condsider the fact that I dont want too many secondary cards clogging up the waste-proof manabase. Still testing and slots are still subject to change. More recoups could be added but showing up in the opening hand is not favorable.  Also some other little card changes but nothing noteworthy. I am condsidering deep analysis if the skelatal scrying prove to be too unsynergistic for the deck.

This is the first draft of the deck and any comments or help is always appreciated.

[VarienTanafres]

I've been a 4cC player for a long time and can agree that it's not very powerful with todays metagame. Changes are needed, but am not sure if Maxxmatt's is quite right, I'm not saying it's wrong either. I haven't had too many problems with Crucible/Wasteland or w/e else. I either end up in conrtol, rarely losing it, or just never have control from the start of the game. I've even gone to try to improve the drawing power and kill methods by adding Goblin Trenches with my 2x Decrees of Justice, just so I can skullclamp into an answer. So far, it's working fairly well for me, but haven't had a chance to extensively test it out.  I might even cut red and use green, digging for Deeds as an answer. Who knows? Wither 4cC players look towards more basic lands, or skullclamps, 4cC needs a change, or needs to be replaced.

[pox_reborn]

Well does anyone think that gifts and recoup is the right direction for the deck to take?

I made a draft version that I posted but no feedback so far on it. Gifts/recoup has the potential to become very powerful in a deck like 4cc. It does not have to be limited to only combo decks like Team Cab's.

[VarienTanafres]

Well does anyone think that gifts and recoup is the right direction for the deck to take?

I made a draft version that I posted but no feedback so far on it. Gifts/recoup has the potential to become very powerful in a deck like 4cc. It does not have to be limited to only combo decks like Team Cab's.

No chance. Why not just make it one cheaper and use Intuition? Intuition is better then the two and recoup is waste of a good spot. You can just wait and use Yawgmoth's Will to play it again. Intuition never found it's spot quite well in 4cC, so why would it now? Nothing in 4cC can benefit from Intuition or Gifts Ungiven.

Other then that, Academy and Cranial Extraction don't really fit well with the deck. Acedemy just isn't 4cC acceptable, and Cranial Extraction isn't good enough for it. It's more or less a Lobotomy. I'd rather use Cabal Therapy and deal with what's in his hand instead of later potental, and it's cheaper as well. Cranial does have a chance, but I don't see much of one. But, I'm not "Tier 1" or "Tier 2", so I could be wrong.

[pox_reborn]

Gifts performs a different function than intuition. Intuition can fetch multiples of a single card while gifts is the opposite. What the purpose of gifts ungiven for the deck to become explosive and win games through brokeness. Old 4cc would use brokeness to gain card advantage for control of the game state but gifts ungiven can act as a tutor for the bombs and allow for a strong will. Gift's can help accelerate the brokeness and help counter the opposing decks brokeness to a degree.

And of course intuition would not work in 4cc because there are no notables that are 3 or 4 ofs that would be worth intuitioning for. Gifts and intuition while both tutors are not a very good comparison.  Something more accurate would be fact or fiction. And a comparison to fact or fiction is what make recoup part of my previously posted decks power. Gifts and fact give your opponent a choice in which he will most likely give you the worst pile of cards revealed or chosen by you. Recoup allows all of the bombs chosen to be replayed. You get 2 bombs in your hand and most likely will and recoup in the yard. This already nets you 2 cards the prepare for not to mention the threat of a recouped will if left undisderbed in a growing graveyard.

As for academy, while I have it in their for now, it is a contested spot that future testing might remove.

As for the cranial extraction/lobotomy/cabal therapy thing:

Cabal therapy is a blind guess without prievioulsy seeing the opponents hand before, so without duress as a possibility of inclusion, it is inferior to extraction in this deck. Lobotomy requires blue and black which is obtainable but it needs the hand. Cranial in the deck provides a different purpose and serves as a bomb to cripple decks innart parts that make them function. Eliminating a draw engine or win condition can be devastating or totally remove an opponents ability to win. At the very least it minimizes their options and you have one less set of cards to worry about for the rest of the game. (barring wishes of course)

current list of mine for reference:

Rough draft list with inspiration from Maxxmatt's list and Team CAB's list:

v 1.0


4 FOW
4 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection

2 Crucible of the Worlds
2 Cranial Extraction
1 Yawgmoth's will
1 Tinker
1 Balance
1 Mind twist
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestrall Recall
1 Fact or fiction
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical tutor

1 collosuss
1 Decree of justice

4 Brainstorm
2 skeletal scrying

3 Gifts ungiven
1 Recoup

4 polluted Delta
2 Flooded strand
1 Strip mine
2 Wasteland
1 Volcanic
1 Underground
1 Tundra
3 island
1 swamp
1 Tolarian academy
7 solomox

[cane]

I'm really not thrilled with the idea of a GU in my 4cc
i can see the power of recoup, but it is really mana intensive
playing it foy buyback cost so you can activate the y will??

acadamy is great as far as i'm concerned

cranial crossed my mind quit a few times, and it could be great, lobotomy could also be great (pitch fodder) but both of them not consistantly are
i was thinking about one of my all time favorites, jester's cap (tinker) but don't see that running either

intuition can be compared with GU, cuz you don't have to get 3 same cards (30%), however for only one mana more, you get to keep 2 of 4 (50%)

I'll post my decklist so you can all comment and make contributions to it
i use less basics cuz I haven't found the need for them (crucible is crucial)
but sure am willing to change this when i feel it needs to be done


broken(5):
1 y will
1 tinker
1 balance
1 time walk
1 mind twist

artifarti(4):
2 crucible
2 EE (so good)

cuz it seemed like a good idea(2):
2 dismanteling blow  (thinking of changing to orim's thunder)

counter(10):
4 FoW
4 mana drain
2 misdirection

tutor/draw(11):
1 mystical
1 demonic
1 FoF
1 stroke (FoW fodder and draw (not to affraid of other decks runing Mis)
1 ancestral
2 skeletal
4 brainstorm

win(2):
1 colossus
1 decree

mana(26):
1 strip
2 waste
4 fetch
2 tundra
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
2 island
1 swamp
1 city of brass
1 tolarian academy
7 solomox
1 mana vault
1 dark ritual       the last two to improve 1st turn crucible and they are just really great accelerants for all the x's

sb(15)
1 decree
2 stp
1 vampiric
1 gush
1 hydroblast
2 stifle
2 fire/ice
2 reb
1 shattering pulse
2 rar

sideboard needs a lot of tweaking, I know
I also would really like to have the sifle's maindeck, what don't they do?
stop a slaver from screwing your game, stall an oath, FoWfodder, stop waste/fetch, they are awsome, but I don't see what to cut
and don't say the dismantlings, I'm not going out there without artiremoval

[pox_reborn]

Damn it the thread gets hijacked by cane.

The original intent of the thread was to develop a 4cc resistant to cruci/waste lock while finding new option to use in the mana base because of the lack of obtaining double white.

So i borrowed the idea from the Cab deck which attempts to win using brokeness which are accumulated quickly with gifts ungiven and brought back with a recouped will. This makes the opponets decision help you overall no matter what they choose for you to take.

Well everyone doesn't think the deck is the right way to go and decides to sidetrack it as a thread for deck help for other vanilla 4cc decks.

mods can lock if they feel like it or just let it runs it course. I won't be bothering one anyone else with the deck idea anymore so no need to post on saying why it won't work.

btw one last note: running intuition instead of gifts in the deck wont work because getting 3 different cards with intuition makes it an inferior gifts and your already going to be going for will and recoup so all you could get with int is one bomb while gifts at least gives you 2 available.

[cane]

I'm sorry Pox,

I thought you wanted ppl that think about and test 4cc to make contributions and share ideas

you could've called your topic; i tried an idea from team CAB and want to hear from ppl that it is good (it would've gotten different replies)

the answers to you problems are pretty simple, don't want to lose to wastelands? play basics. can't get ww? don't use cards that have that mana cost

don't diss on ppl who are trying to help each other out with the love of 4cc in their hearts, but maybe you just aren't that good at making friends and I can't judge you for that

if you want to play GU, do so, have fun with it, that's what I'm trying to do

one last note though, vanilla is yummie

[Arcanis, the Omnipotent]

Red in 4cc isn't there merely for the sideboard. In fact, the version I last knew used the "Mox Monkey" (Gorilla Shaman) and Exalted Angel, though I must admit it was quite a while back then. Also, is there a need to keep red just for the sideboard and killing enemy Moxen? You bet. It's 4cc for a reason - it wins on sheer Power and play  skill of the player. Cutting red surely diminishes the Power available. So I don't think 4cc should stop being 4cc, no.

[Revvik]

Then a kill condition other than Exalted Angel must be found (inability to obtain WW), which means revamping the draw engine, obtaining one that doesn't kill you and doesn't take up too many deck slots.  So Intuition/AK is out, which is probably a good thing.  Morphling is a blast from the past.

The Gifts Ungiven idea was something this thread needed - a 'new direction.'  However, turning this deck into a bastardized hybridization of Team CAB's Gifted and 4CC isn't where we need to go.  Instead of using Gifts as a combo engine (or to set up Yawg Will), maybe utilizing it as straight card advantage would be a better idea.  
On the idea of searching for broken plays, Impulse is another card with that idea in mind: combined with Brainstorms, Fetchlands, and Gifts Ungiven, you should have no problem fetching out whatever maindeck broken solution you need at any given time.

On a different note, I don't know, maybe trying to bring 4cc in line with the metagame changes is a mistake - it's a bad time for a deck like this one that tries to pack in so much brokenness over so many different colors.  Is trying something else really out of the question?  When Fish's power weakened, I made the switch to a few different decks, eventually settling on 'Tog.

[Arcanis, the Omnipotent]

Oh... I thought you knew...

I really don't know how to put this to you, then...

'Tog is dead... He was killed by Goblin Welder and Cloud of Faeries.

j/k

Actually I think the correct metagame choice is MonoBlue Control, and not Tog... There's still a lot of hate from when it broke the format. Sort of.

[Mixing Mike]

Actually I think the correct metagame choice is MonoBlue Control....

Are you sure about that?

The first problem is the existence of Oath of Druids.

The second problem is Goblin Welder.

The final problem for mono blue is the brokeness in opposing decks.  If Control Slaver resolves Tinker you are basically done for even if you can keep welders from being useful or active.

Sorry for the hijack.  Back to discussing Keeper.  I really like the Cranial Extractions.  I think that maindeck Misdirection is far to weak though.  I think if you're going to run Gifts, then you need to play green for Regrowth.  It breaks it in half, twice.

[doomhed]

As many have said before, getting WW is nigh imposible in this meta, and right now, keeper cannot withstand the major overhaul to change into something remotely playable. you would be better off looking at an old rOSE Skeleton and working with that.