Budget U/g Madness

[Tash]

This is a U/g madness build I've been working on, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
// Creatures
        3 Wonder
        4 Roar of the Wurm
        4 Basking Rootwalla
        4 Arrogant Wurm
        4 Wild Mongrel
// Card Drawing
        4 Deep Analysis
        4 Careful Study
// Countermagic
        4 Circular Logic
        4 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
// Mana Sources
        1 Lion's Eye Diamond
        1 Tropical Island
        9 Forest
        10 Island
// Sideboard
        3 Masticore
        4 Energy Flux
        4 Naturalize
        4 Chill

The maindeck is pretty self explanitory, except for the misdirections. The Misdirections are in there as a sort of 8th FoW, because they work well.
Playing sligh? They fireblast you, you misdirect it to their Jackal Pup.
Etc.

The Sideboard:
Masticore: I put that in there for swarm decks, like WW and whatnot
Energy Flux: The metagame where I'm from includes a LOT of affinity, I find this to be the best answer that I can find, a lot of the time I play energy flux, and they scoop.
Naturalize: Disenchants and Naturalizes are like condoms, you should always carry at least 3 with you at all times.
Chill: This slows down a red deck enough that I can beat their face in.

Like I said, any suggestions you guys can make would be greatly appreciated.

[Joblin Velder]

4 Misdirections seem like a lot. I'd really consider dropping the number down to 2. With so many copies of Roar of the Wurm and Deep Analysis, I'd add 2 Intuitions to fill in this space.

If affinity is such a monster in your meta, consider running 4 Null Rods main. It kills the deck more than Energy Flux and gives you a better chance against powered decks.

I really think the deck is lacking Madness outlets. You only have 4 permanent ones. I really dislike Careful Study. Try Aquameeba and see if you can do without the cycling in the deck.

[gustoh]

I'd suggest you also cut the Wonder count down from 3 to either 2 or 1. Also I know you're trying to go the budget route but try to play with 4 Tropical Islands and 4 U/Fetchlands.

And another note: Fireblast and Jackal Pup don't see much play in Type 1 so you can cut that Misdirection count down as well.

LT...

[Dante]

This needs to get faster and have more permanent madness outlets.  Try 2-3
Aquamoeba or Waterfront Bouncers.

This deck just isn't fast enough for any competitive environment - try adding Lotus Petal and Chrome Mox, possibly Mox Diamond as well.  You should also seriously consider Elvish Spirit Guide for Trinisphere-proof acceleration.  If you're going to play 4 Wurm and 4 Roar, consider Sol Ring and Mana Vault as well.

[Tetre]

A good Start to the deck, but I do have a few comments. I hope not to offend you.

This is a U/g madness build I've been working on, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
// Creatures
3 Wonder                   - I'd drop this to 2
4 Roar of the Wurm    - Roars time was in Standard...While it can be a big beatstick, I don't see how you will have enough Mana to make it work.
4 Basking Rootwalla    - Agreed
4 Arrogant Wurm        - 4 Seems too many (Some builds don't run any..Mine for example:) )
4 Wild Mongrel            - Best 2-drop Evar! IMHO
// Card Drawing
3 Deep Analysis          - Cards are good
4 Careful Study          - Drop to 3
// Countermagic
4 Circular Logic          - OK
4 Misdirection             - OK
4 Force of Will            - OK
// Mana Sources
1 Lion's Eye Diamond  - Speed is good
1 Tropical Island         - Up this to at least 2
9 Forest
10 Island
// Sideboard
3 Masticore                - Costs A LOT!!
4 Energy Flux            - You don't mind losing game 1 to Artifact decks..ok
4 Naturalize              - OK
4 Chill                      -ok

You currently have no way of dealing with bigger fat.  Bouncers are amazing...as are Gilded Drakes. Try to fit some bouncers in the main to replace either Roars or Arrogant Wurms (My advice is to axe the Roars)

Dropping one of the Deeps allows you to run GUSH!!!!! which at times will be an amazing game finisher when you draw it.  You can also mess with combat match by using it in the mirror match.

On to the land...Try to acquire at least 2 Deltas and 2 Foothills, they make a difference, subtle but it's still there.

There are still free slots...you have many routes available in U/G, you can (In no particular order):
a) Maindeck Flux - It's blue and pitchable, and gives you strong game against artifact.based.deck.dec
b) Add Stifle - Hoses turn 1 fetches (some good I hear)
c) Add aquamoeba - 4 more outlets for Roots/Logics
d) do other stuff like berserk

Either way, I really have a hard time with the roar crit in the build...and dropped arrogant wurm right off the map of my build.

Currently, the Meta is one of:

"I'll just Cast Doomsday"
"I'll Oath ...Oh look Spirit of the Night...I'm so lucky"
"Turn 1 Trinisphere...wow what a mise"

U/G Answers:
"Doomsday...I'll Logic/FoW that"....assuming you have a hand left
"Nice Oath...Gilded Drake?...Roshambo you for it"
"Trinisphere..ouch...Get to 3 mana and drop Flux..better yet go first and drop it turn 2 (Lack of accelleration) )

Keep up the good work though,
Tetre

[Tash]

Hm... well alright, Im going to cut back on the wonders since everyone suggested it.

Ill try adding more madness outlets, either Bouncer or the 'Moeba... not sure which one yet.

Gush- Definately going in, cant believe i didnt think of it

+2 Polluted Delta
+2 Wooded Foothills

Still not certain about the maindeck energy fluxes... the reason for that is yes the metagame at the local shop is affinity based, but there are plenty of other 'rogue' decks there too that aren't artifact based... and also I appreciate the help with the current T-1 metagame, but my local shop doesnt have the problems with Doomsday/Trinisphere, but there is an Oath deck or 2 popping up, so i know i need to at least find some sideboard room for it.

And Tetre, you say masticore is too expensive for the sideboard?
So what do you suggest in replacement of it?

I hope not to offend you.

Sorry, I just found that funny. I posted this deck up here for constructive criticism of course people are going to tell me that I am wrong in some areas, and I am not offended by anything that any of you have said.

I've a tourney on Saturday that I want to take this deck to... so if i get bored I might write up a tourney report and post it on this topic.

[Tetre]

For the Sideboard....Gilded Drake instead of Masticore.

If you have bouncers in the main as a madness outlet...after the board, you get to push through a drake for their fat, and at the same time....you can bounce the drake back to your hand (worst case...at the cost of a land )

I know that Flux main always gets some stares...but giving game 1 to affinity, stax, etc. is just plain wrong....or at least I think so.  Running the Flux in the main at the very least prevents you from losing to type II "affinity cause i don't have a good type 1 deck.dec".

If you don't need the Flux in game 1...you can always chuck it to Fow. If you do need it..yer happy that it's there in game 1, giving you a chance to win game 1 and 2, not forcing you to win games 2 and 3.

Hope this helps,
Tetre

[Mark_Story]

If you are having trouble with affinity, I think MD null rod's would be much more effective than flux.  In extended Affinity can deal with one sometimes two fluxes.  With disciple and ravager in play they just fireball you with the artifacts they can't pay for.  However, null rod nullifies all of their land, ravagers ability, as well as skullclamp and cranial plating.  they are left attacking with their creatures, and their mana base is devastated.

As for your list I would consider running daze.  I've found it very helpful in my madness build.  Also I would:

-2 roar of the wurm
-2 wonder
-1 Deep analysis.
-3 Misdirection  (Unless your men are constantly being targetted with removal, if so remove -2 Misdirection)

+2 Intuition (they are at the high end of the price spectrum for a budget deck, but they are so Good!)
+4 Aquamoeba (He beats and he's got a fat ass if you need to block)
 
As for the last two slots I would look at curiosity or mana acceleration, in the form of chrome mox, lotus petal and perhaps sol ring/mana crypt.

[the boogie man]

If your meta has a substantial amount of welders, ground seal might be good.

   But anyway, I would leave 2 misdirections in the main, and 3 deep analysis. 1-2 roar of the worm would be cool, too, but I wouldn't play more than that. And the worms shold definately be cut down, but not all the way to 0, maybe 2, because they are pretty big.

   But maybe another angle you could throw this deck in is mana denial. wastes, strips, and null rod main. just an idea.

   And maybe run 3 bouncers in the side for whatever, and maybe stupifying touch could be cool, because it can trips.

[Un4givenKnight]

Hmmm... I think that Bouncers are amazingly useful as not only as a draw engine but also as anti-Oath tech. That said, i think i would MD Aquamoeba as it is a more user-friendly discard outlet.  I dont know about 4 RotW, 2 or 3 sounds more reasonable to me. Energy Flux could be one of the most useful pieces of hate right now, as it hoses both Artifact.dec and anybody who happens to be powered. Kicking somebody directly in the mana base is never a bad idea, especially since you aren't playing any jewelry of your own.

[Freelancer]

This is my build off madness:

4x wasteland
1x strip mine
4x polluted delta
2x wooded foothills
5x island
4x forest
2x tropical island

2x wonder
2x waterfront bouncer
4x wild mongrel
4x aquamoeba
3x arrogant wurm
4x basking rootwalla

3x deep analysis
2x curiosity
2x oxidize
4x brainstorm
4x force off will
4x circular logic

Some notes on this build:
No roars...these guys are fantastic but it means tapping down on your turn=deadly in T1...so i cutted these
Not the 4x arrogant wurms: these guys are useless without a madness outlet, i am actually considering dropping it down to 2...Everything else in the deck is castable without a madness outlet in play since most players aim there removal at the madness outlets there are times your without one and you wish you had ANYTHING but a wurm...
2x waterfront bouncer: extra outlets and reasonble creature removal...also they provide nice tempo boosts if you bounce there most expensive critter each time (against oath they help A LOT)...
2x curiosity: extra draw, this is essentially a control/aggro deck meaning that the control side loves extra draw...
3x deep analysis: extra draw: good (see above) also has synergy with everything else
2x oxidize provide removal against: big artifact creatures/disk/keg/moxen/trini/stack/wire and a bunch off other stuff...that said i'm thinking about changing these slots to energy flux...

[sa17dk]

I see that many builds are running very few Tropical Islands. While I don't have a problem with this, has anyone tried a version using B2B?

[Tetre]

Even though it's a powered build, this is close to what I'm running now (I don't really wanna post my up-to-date list until after the next big event) I'm a punk right now

http://www.401games.ca/features/glennmiller.html

The spell and crit base is what matters anyway (B2B and Flux in the main).

The board is now NOTHING like I ran at the Toronto event

Notice that it's still a 5-proxy build, and with little re-work it still runs pretty good non-powered.

Cheers,
Tetre

[doomhed]

here is a Very good non-Proxy Build that I use on a week to week basis.

For the record, with U/G madness I have 3 T8's and a T16 (at waterbury).


3x Tropical island
2x Green Fetch
4x Blue Fetch
5x Island
4x Forest
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Lotus Petal/LED

4x Wild Mongrel
4x Arrogant Wurm
4x Basking Rootwalla

4x Force of will
4x Circular Logic
4x Aquamoeba
4x Brainstorm
8x Open Slots

the 8 open slots are used to adapt to your metagame. usually 3 null rods and some other assorted tools are added. many people like additional draw spells, like I said, it is all relative.

Sideboards-
again, for your metagame.

[merfolkOTPT]

is Bazaar of Baghdad a bad card to run in the U/G version of this deck i know a lot of people run it in the G/R version.  Also is Squee a bad card for this if you couldn't tell i have been playing the G/R version and i think these cards would all transition well to this version.

[Un4givenKnight]

I'm planning on building a U/G Madness deck for upcoming tournaments and I just have a few queries:

1. Why not have Careful Study? IMO this deck is good the more cards you can draw then discard.
2.  If I dont have Arrogant Wurm at the present moment, should I go CotH or RotW? How many?
3. What about Rites of Refusal? I can see it being a rather solid discard outlet plus a much more useful counter early game than circular logic. And since this format is so fast at this point, i can see a solid argument for its inclusion. It seems to be a Mana Leak with the capability to set up your offense. Plus its blue for the FoW pitch.
4. Grip of Amnesia in the SB perhaps? I can see it being useful against assorted Tendrils combo, things like 4CC and Tog and of course Dragon. Doesn't hurt to use it against Welders to attempt to keep some of their threats from being able to come back so easily.
5. MD Energy Flux? Anybody who is not playing on a budget has artifacts, as do some budget players.

If I was to take U/G to a 10 proxy and im totally budget (no p9 no duals no MWS Bazaar Drain etc...) what would be an optimal decklist for me to bring? I would expect the usual meta, Oath, Workshop.dec, and some Combo. I'm personally not sold on Bazaar as being a much better discard outle than the ones that are already there, but maybe thats just me...

Thanx much.

[sa17dk]

1. Careful Study is card disadvantage, as well as its slow speed. Not to mention, like others before have said: If youre running Careful Study, then that means you probably have a lot of flashback cards (Roar, etc) which means your deck is a lot slower. The only good thing Careful Study is good for is dropping 2 Rootwallas first turn.

2. I don't know if you can truly replace Arrogant Wurm. Arrogant Wurm can be played while you pump, but most importantly, can be used as an end of turn creature. Not to mention 3 mana for a 4/4 is a good ratio. If I didnt have the Wurm though, I'd probably go with Call of the Herd...

3. You already have enough discard outlets. Not to mention, Rites of Refusal is horrible if your board position is bad, because if you're ever out of Madness outlets Rites of Refusal is a horrible card to use as one. Not to mention, all the other counterspells that are tested are either free or cost 1 (Logic, Daze, FoW).

4. No  comment.

5. Some builds that focus a lot towards hate run both Energy Flux and B2B. It all depends on the metagame. If you're planning on seeing lots of Workshop decks, then these 2 cards can help make sure you don't auto lose against ST4X or other Workshop decks.

[JamesPr]

Careful study is a decent card in madness, especially if you don't have duals.  It is a mana fixer and can be used as an outlet for a lot of cards in your deck.  You have to get Arrogant Wurms if you want to play madness, they're amazing in the deck, and they are very much crucial.  If you want to beat a lot of decks that use artifacts, use Null Rod it stops them in their tracks.  Doomhed has had a lot of success with his build, why don't you use his build, your tournament allows you to have ten proxies.

Grip of Amnesia is just bad because it gives your opponent a choice.

[MuzzonoAmi]

Careful Study is powerful as a Madness outlet and can give you a strong start off a mediocre opening hand. Quiet Speculation is also a great card for this deck - it tutors up 3 cards at once (usually a combination of Roars and Deep Anals, but it also grabs Ray of Revelation vs Oath, which is HUGE) and effectively puts all three into your hand. Some people might recommend Intuition, but until Disrupting Shoals comes out, there's no reason to run a 3 mana spell that accomplishes the same thing as a 2 mana one while giving your opponent more control (putting something like Roar or Ray into your hand, where it's quite dead).

[Tash]

Right well a while back on this one I said that I would put up a tourney report with my build of U/g madness. Well here it is:

Ben Tash
U/g Madness
Maindeck
6 Forest
8 Islands
2 Polluted Deltas
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Tropical Island
1 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Lions Eye Diamond
1 Sol Ring

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Waterfront Bouncer
2 Arrogant Wurm
2 Roar of the Wurm
2 Wonder

4 Careful Study
2 Deep Analysis
1 Gush

4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Circular Logic

Sideboard
4 Naturalize
4 Energy Flux
4 Chill
1 Gilded Drake
1 Deep Analysis
1 Windfall

Before anyone even says anything about the sideboard, I'd like to mention that the Deep Analysis and the Windfall were supposed to be Gilded Drakes, but the morning of the tourney I went to go get 2 more from the shop, and they were all out, so I was rushed to fill up 2 slots, since there were 2 proxy cards in there.
But without further Adeau here's my tourney report.

Round 1: Scott R. (Jank Affinity)
Scott was running affinity, without the Ravagers of course. Game 1 was in the bag for me, until he dropped 2 myr enforcers, a crainal plating, and an ornithopter all in 1 turn, and i had no wonder in the graveyard, I took massive beatings to the face and died.
Game 2 was no better, I sideboarded in my Energy fluxes, taking out 4 misdirections, and got stuck on 1 land and a chrome mox. The only reason i kept that opening hand was because of 2 Energy Fluxes, but I couldnt draw a land until it was too late.

My record 0:1

Round 2: Some random guy (Green Shennanigans)
This kid was running some sort of green deck with a bunch of land accelerators and cards like fog, and moments peace. I dropped down early Rootwallas Mongrels and arrogant wurms and beat him silly.
Game 2 he stalled long enough to get out a Sundering Titan (a completely random choice) and a Seedborn Muse. I ended up killing the titan with a RotW and Arrogant Wurm double block, and was left with a tropical island and a Sol Ring, after that though, I delivered the beats and  won the game, and match.

My record 1:1

Round 3: Gary R. (Oath)
Going into this round i was worried, mainly because i had no idea what to expect with madness vs. oath. I topdecked a Waterfront bouncer and kept the hand.I dropped a turn 2 Bouncer, and he gave me a few tokens with the forbidden orchird. He kept hitting the oath and i kept bouncing the stuff back to his hand.I ended up swarming him with 1/1 spirit tokens.
Game 2 was pretty much the same, with me sideboarding in 4 naturalizes and a gilded drake, (taking out 4 misdirections and something else... i think it was a RotW) and i kept up the bouncing effects. He Oathed out an Akroma (which i bounced), a Pristine Angel (which i couldnt bounce) and the Pro all colours angel from oddesy (it was japanese... i didnt know the name.) But i ended up beating him with the spirit tokens he'd given me.

My record 2:1

Round 4: DaveNate (Cat Deck)
DaveNate is the local 'casual' magic player. He loves playing the most random decks, and refuses to play "netdecks", which is fine by me, because it makes beating him all that much easier. Game 1 was simple for me. Cast careful study, drop 2 Rootwallas, and beat his face in.
Game 2 however was slower, and DN was winning, but he got stuck on a mana pocket, while i topdecked a wild mongrel, and then hardcast RotW, and then subsequently flashed it back next turn. He grumbled about madness and then took it like a man.

My record 3:1

Round 5: Cheese (Clerics)
Cheese was running a cleric deck with STP and Worship. Game 1 was a loss for me because he caught me without a FoW or circular logic and dropped a worship. Game 2 and 3 however I sided in the naturalizes and destroyed his hopes and dreams of winning the match.

My record 4:1

Round 6: Randy H. (Charbelcher)
I have played Charbelcher in previous tournaments, so i knew exactly what the deck was capable of pulling off. I cant forget that Randy also has the R,W,and U moxes... so my odds of winning were pretty slim. Also Randy and I have played in 3 tournaments before this one, and i have never beaten him in a match.
Game 1 I kept a fairly aggressive hand and beat him down with Rootwallas, A Wurms, and mongrels, he didnt draw a thing and I smashed his face in.
Game 2 he pulls out a Xantid Swarm right after a Wheel of Fortune and then next turn attacks, plays channel and charbelches me to death.
Game 3 he casts necropotence, spends 13 life getting the perfect hand, and i have a FoW with Careful study kicker, and 2 circular logics in hand. I smack him with my waterfront bouncer, and counter everything he plays. However he loses during his upkeep when I correctly call the die roll for his mana crypt. We shake hands and I walk away with a 5-1 record.

I ended up taking 3rd place with 53.66666% win percentage. While the guy that took 2nd (and $20 store credit) had a 54.77777% win percentage.

A few things i noticed:
Misdirection: Alright I need to take maybe one or 2 of these out. They were good anti STP cards, but that was about it.
Waterfront Bouncer: WOW. They saved my arse in the Oath matchup, the poor guy had every single creature in his deck in his hand.
Roar of the Wurm: Good GAWD are these things slow or what? A 6/6 beatstick is nice, but when my deck is designed to kill before that, then screw it. I don't have time for it. Also it doesn't have madness so I cant cast it during my opponents turn. Thusfore making me tap out.
Energy Flux: Didn't save me in the affinity matchup, but thats because the kid was running somber hoverguards. Who runs Somber Hoverguards in T-1 Affinity?
Speaking of affinity, its not as much of a monster as i feared. There were  2 affinity decks there, while there were also 2 oath decks there. I was glad i put in the bouncers.

Theres the tourney report. A few changes I'd make is get some gilded drakes for the sideboard, and drop a misdirection or 2, and most definately the RotW's... dont know what I'd replace them with, but thats a start.

[Dante]

here's the thing about Gilded Drake - vs Oath, it's totally dependant on which creature comes out first:

If they Oath out Akroma and you Drake Akroma, you win b/c it can outrace/block&kill SotN or Drake.

If they Oath out Sotn and you Drake that, next turn they Oath out Akroma and you lose (unless you have 2 Drakes).

[Tash]

you know, i think we had this discussion on the Mono blue... blah blah post in the Vintage open form... and you're right, and i agreed with you there, the thing is that I wrote this the day of the tourney, and just got around to posting it, then i playtested it and realized that Drake isnt great Tech Vs. Oath