Phrenic Thoughtdigger

[Alfred]

I was thinking about this card for a while now. The two abilities are pretty synergistic with one another, because one fills your graveyard, while the other one returns cards to your hand, "digging" through your mind.

Phrenic Thoughtdigger
1
Artifact

T: Put the top card of your library in the graveyard and put a counter on Phrenic Thoughdigger.

Remove three counters from Phrenic Thoughtdigger: Return a card from your graveyard to your hand.



Currnet wording:

Phrenic Thoughtdigger
1
Artifact

T, Put the top card of your library into your graveyard:  Put a charge counter on Phrenic Thoughdigger.

Remove three charge counters from Phrenic Thoughtdigger: Return a card from your graveyard to your hand. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.

[Ephraim]

I'm a little bit uncomfortable with this. Returning a card from one's graveyard to one's hand can be a potent boon and the only investment this requires is time. It worries me that this not only serves as graveyard retrieval, but also as a pseudo-draw engine. It probably isn't overpowered, but it's a subtle utility effect that I am afraid will fall into some deck where it will really abusable.

[fattzzach]

Yes it is a psedo draw engine. Draw a card every three turns. That doesnt seem overly powerfull to me

[Ephraim]

It isn't just a pseudo draw engine, though. It's the draw engine in conjunction with an equally effective means of getting cards out of one's graveyard -- and of filling one's graveyard, for that matter.

[edit]
Sorry. I got called to dinner just as I started writing, so I could only state my point in the briefest fashion. My objection is that this card subtly unifies two respectably powerful functions (card drawing and graveyard retrieval) with a third moderately powerful function -- that of putting cards in one's graveyard. I am wary of giving so much functionality, however weak any of it might seem, to a single artifact. In practice, I see this card's "cost" -- that of milling oneself -- only being used to help the player using it. I'd much rather see something closer to [card]Serum Tank[/card], except for graveyard retrievals instead of card drawing.
[/edit]

[Alfred]

I mean, sure, it's a regrowth effect. But at the same time it takes 3 turns to activate. Right now it's costed strongly, but please elaborate where this would be too strong.

[MrZuccinniHead]

i see nothing wrong with this

[Marco]

I'm not sure about the power level, but I like it.

[Khahan]

I see what Ephraim is saying about the card. The two abilities on their own are fine. But when you combine them, you essentially have a tutor effect.
Now, imagine if 2 of these are in play.
This would probably be a mainstay in any combo deck.
In T1, welder would certainly use this.
To an extent, I could see many control decks using this, too.
Perhaps the second ability should be, "Remove 3 counters: Put target card in your graveyard on top of your library."

You still get the tutor effect, which is nice, but you need to draw to do it.
Of course, that may take the card the other way and underpower it too much.

[Alfred]

Would raising the cost of this card by one or two make it more balanced?

[MrZuccinniHead]

how about adding...

If a spell or permanent you control would be put into a graveyard from play, remove it from the game instead.

That way, you can only get the cards that thoughtdigger puts in there and not ones u casted already.

OR adding play this ability as a sorcery would make it a little more fair.

[Alfred]

This already has 2 different mechanics on it, I would loath to make this any more complicated. I would like to take a bit of a poll as to what everyone things this should be costed.

[Ephraim]

Increasing the mana cost of the artifact does not seem necessary. Making the return ability playable only as a sorcery would go a long way to assuage my fears regarding this card. Putting the card on top of one's library, as Khahan suggested, would also satisfy me.

That said, I disagree with Khahan that this card "would probably be a mainstay in any combo deck." I don't think it's so good that it would break any metagames, but that it's treading dangerously close to abilities that artifacts shouldn't have. Regrowth is potent. Eternal Witness is all over the place right now because it has a very good effect. Even having to devote some infrastructure to the process (as this card requires) does not dull the power that instant-speed Regrowth has.

Consider, for the moment, Skeleton Shard. It could probably have allowed you to return any creature to your hand, but themeliness aside, that would also be violating boundaries. This is violating those same boundaries -- it's harder to set it up, but the effect is also much greater.

In addition, you've coupled this ability to a so-called penalty that turns this card into a pseudo-draw engine. I've already harped on that point, so I will only mention it in passing, this time.

In the end, this card worries me. I can't say that it's too powerful for any given metagame. I can only suppose that it's too big for its breeches.

[Alfred]

So how about if I bumped up the mana cost by one and added the "play this ability as a sorcery" clause? I am not against this decision at all.

[Ephraim]

If you make it playable as a sorcery only, I wouldn't object to the artifact costing only . If this card turns out to be good, it's liable to be heavily skill-testing, so I don't mind making it easy to play for those people skilled enough to use it well.

[Tash]

So its almost a Demonic Tutor a turn. Well, sorta...

IDK, it would be an interesting card, and the sorcery errata part would make it a lot less BAH-roken.

[Alfred]

24 Hour Clock

[Ephraim]

Note to Matt (or to Alfred), the correct wording should be:

Phrenic Thoughtdigger
1
Artifact

T: Put the top card of your library into your graveyard and put a charge counter on Phrenic Thoughtdigger.

Remove three charge counters from Phrenic Thoughtdigger: Return a card from your graveyard to your hand. Play this ability only any time you could play a sorcery.

***

Also -- will/should the movement of a card from library to graveyard be a cost or an effect of the first ability? I would just like to clarify that.

[Alfred]

Changed. I'm also curious as to what the difference would be between having the first ability be a cost or an effect.

[Ephraim]

It won't always matter whether it's a cost or an effect, but I can definitely think of two situations that are bound to come up in which it would matter.

If it is a cost, your opponent has the opportunity to hit your graveyard with Coffin Purge, Tormod's Crypt, etc. before you have a chance to play sorcery-speed abilities. So, suppose you drop Deep Analysis or Cabal Therapy. With the Thoughtdigger's ability on the stack, I can remove it before you can use Flashback. (I was going to suggest that you could also use the Thoughtdigger's own retrieval ability to get back the card you just put into the graveyard, but then I realized that there is an opportunity for an opponent to respond to that with Coffin Purge.)

If it is an effect, then this is not possible. By the time the card is put into the graveyard, the ability is resolving and your opponent will not receive priority before your next opportunity to play sorcery-speed effects (assuming you're doing this on your own turn, during your main phase.)

If the card removal is an effect and not a cost, I think it makes this card significantly stronger

[Alfred]

I'll make it a cost then.

[Alfred]

24 hour clock

[Matt]

Closed and added.[/color]